whats so special about Lionel's 6464 boxcars ?

>>>In the original post, the question is asked: "Are 6464 boxcars collectable". My answer is: If you are interested in collecting something, then it is collectable". I've collected things few other people were interested in. For a collector that can be a lot of fun, because unpopular things often aren't well documented, so one has to do the research. Some of those items have caught on, and become popular collectables, others, not so much.<<

Pretty much spot on...

Lionels best 6464 type boxcars were the few they made back in 2001 with diecast detailed undersides. Don't think they made more then six before the program ended.

Collectors were turned off after the 10 modern era 6464 series sets when Lionel doing their usual thing ad nauseum continued the program with an unending addition of fantasy type 6464 boxcars.  Even Vapor records got into the mix with a 6464..

In the end, folks were burned out buying cars for the number #6464 as it became more important then the boxcar itself.

As expected, folks were exploited and the program collapsed into a blowout.

Joe

Possibly true... which may account for these items being blown out by dealers at significant discounts.  But I still applaud Lionel's efforts for giving it a try.  Some product ideas take hold, while others never get off the ground.

I would have been up for seeing the 6464's done up in scale detail glory, but perhaps I'm in the minority on this one.  Sometimes, it's best to leave legendary icons untouched.  Most folks here are now too young to have had any real first-hand experience with the original postwar 6464's.  Although a good number of us recall the 1980's and 1990's, when prices for the original 6464's in great condition soared into the stratosphere at hundreds of dollars per car. 

In all likelihood, the best bet for a full 6464 collection nowadays would be to grab the LTI 3-packs Volume 1 through 10, as pictured a few posts back in this thread.  They'll conjure up some nice postwar Lionel memories without breaking the bank!  

David

You've hit the nail on the head, Tiffany. Thank you.

Better can mean different things to different people. We could avoid the "collector vs. operator" threads that happen here all the time if we would remember that.

Just like saying a "seaside vacation is better than a trip to the mountains" is just one man's opinion, the same holds true for our preferences in trains. No one's opinion is "better" than anyone else's.

Jim

Just a quick note of interest:  the original postwar 6464's sold for $5.95 in those years!

     Hoppy

Can't speak for the 1950's 'cause much of that decade was before my time.  Although catalog prices will tell the story for us.

But as I mentioned earlier in this thread , the 1966 catalog (one of my childhood favorites) listed 6464 boxcars at $6/each that year.  And in what may have been The Lionel Coporation's last catalog -- more of a pamphlet -- before General Mills took the reigns, the few 6464 boxcars listed on the back page were $9/each.

David

And minimum wage was in 1950 was $0.75 an hour rising to $1.00 an hour in 1956 and stayed there until 1960...  Gas was about $0.28 a gallon.

Folks paid less for automobiles in dollar amounts back then than what a Vision Line locomotive costs these days.

It's very easy to wax on nostalgically for the 1950's catalog prices until you take into account what folks made hourly back then.

Rusty

Very true, and I saved almost all of my $2-a-week allowance for each of those 6464's.

And what do I go and do???  Sold it all when I was 16 or so, for next to nothing.  Still

kicking myself .  .  .  .

     Hoppy  

Unknown

Little known to many O gauge fans is the 6464 series Micro-Trains issued in N scale. Below are pictures of several cars along with their Lionel inspired boxes.

Bob 

I got into buying O gauge I forgot when but around 1975. At that time amongst the old collectors especially, MPC was held in contempt and thats where the whats special about 6464 boxcars came from I believe.

MPC boxcars and remember that was it there were no others at that time were lighter, had plastic trucks and the fast angle wheels worked much better but didn't look as good.

It took years for that scorn for MPC to wear away, with most all except the dedicated old postwar collectors, now love MPC.

I took advantage of the situation and bought lots of good looking MPC boxcars.

IMHO the initial non-collector attraction of the 6464 cars was their near scale appearance.  When I was a kid I could not afford the prewar scale cars and the toy like painted "O" and lithograph O-27 Babe Ruth box cars were both a bit of a disappointment.  Than the beautifully detailed stamped 2458 auto car came out, also offered postwar. WOW! Probably the best tinplate box car ever produced.

The 2458 was the definitely the best scale looking box car until the first 6464's came out. Than they were the box car of choice for the semi-scale operators until the near scale "Standard O" series cars arrived.

For those of us who really appreciate toy trains with a hint of scale and magic, the magic usually springs from childhood memories. Having known several true collectors, the ones I've been able to engage in-depth Lionel conversations with, to a degree, feel as I do - that the Lionel magic may have been over-stoked because of some very hard times. The catalogs, dep't. store layouts, and the colorful nature of railroading itself back in the day were enough to add a wonderful dimension to childhood. Some collectors really are more into collecting than into the "magic of Lionel", but many of us are still firmly enjoying those trains and the memories and "magic" they evoke. Nothing wrong with that! It's a flavor sadly missing for most of today's young fans who do appreciate trains, real and model, because they haven't seen the magnificent and varied freight and passenger trains that decades ago fired the imagination. I like trains period, and that includes the new stuff of today, but it's all utilitarian, boxy locos and long strings of boring, unicolor cars that aren't of wide appeal to the masses. 6464s still convey that more colorful period in railroading.

I'm a crusty old 2 railer, but Lionel is how I got started, and the answer is easy for me: The paint, that is the different liveries. It was fun getting different road names, and the more colorful, the better. The different variations (paint and otherwise) generated/generate the collecting interest.

Simon

Virginian65, I strongly agree with you re. the trains of today!  When I was a kid, I'd ride my bike downtown to our little train station and watch the never-ending

parade of road names and colors.  I remember when my Dad took me to the circus

in New York.  We rode in the PRR MP54 cars and I can tell you honestly that I

remember much more about the train ride than the show.  Yes, the trains today are

monotonous and boring.  Sad to say . . . . .

     Hoppy

I agree, Hoppy.  When I'm visiting my mother, I often go down to the station in my old home town and do a bit of train-watching.  Nothing but dull, cabooseless unit trains, as anonymous and drab as so many wheelbarrows.

Mind you, I'm glad the railroads are surviving, by whatever means necessary.  But unless you've seen them at their colorful and prosperous best, it must be tough to imagine just how much more fascinating they once were.

First, Virginian65, cool looking layout!

Second, just for kicks, here's an assortment I have on a wall as you walk into my train room. Not every variation, and the two Uhl Timken's may not count.

My dad was a bargain hunter, and his best buy was cleaning out a discount store's stock of 6464s after Xmas 1957 in Muskegon, Michigan: Sentinel, MKT, couple Central of Georgias, NH, MoPac, Timken, Rutland.  How much were they?  Drumroll, please - 6 bits apiece - yep, 75 cents each as they were unloading all their train stock and getting out of the train business.  I have a number of them, still boxed, carefully played with and in nice shape.  A bit pricier, but a better purchase was a pair of 2368 B&O dummy B units bought for the princely sum of $3.75 each, new in box.  Those came from a gas station/tire dealer that sold trains as well.  He never did find the A units to go with them.

Dad grew up very poor during the Depression, and trains were longed for but way out of my grandparent's budget - he swore he'd have Lionels some day. They were supposed to be hands off for my brothers and me - we waited until the coast was clear before sneaking out the goods to run.  

hello guys and gals...........

Are the 9700,9400 and 9200 type boxcars the same as the 6464 type boxcars ? They look pretty much the same to my eye.

the woman who loves the S.F.5011,2678,2003,200

Tiffany

They're essentially from the same tooling.  The primary difference was the removal of rivets along the boxcar sides that started with the 9200 series when General Mills took over Lionel train production to make applying graphics & lettering easier, and the change in the delrin trucks with fast-angle wheels.

The 9200 series were interesting from a transitional standpoint, they have 3 basic variations in the body with one still having the metal door guides from the postwar period, the second with experimental plastic upper & lower door guides (flimsy) and then the final and widely adopted revision with the upper flush-mounted upper door guide and the lower door guides being part of the body mold. 

There were also variations with the trucks with the 9200 series; early ones retained the AAR "Timken" freight trucks from the postwar period, albeit modified to accept the new needlepoint bearing axles (and for some strange reason they filled in the simulated truck side cavities more), then they phased in the newer but totally obscure Symington-Wayne trucks.  This final design change carried over to the 9700 and 9400 series, and into the LTI and LLC era as well (although they brought back the metal door guides & side rivet details with their 6464 reproduction series starting in the LTI era and continue it to this day on many other 6464-based boxcars.

quote:

There were also variations with the trucks with the 9200 series; early ones retained the AAR "Timken" freight trucks from the postwar period, albeit modified to accept the new needlepoint bearing axles (and for some strange reason they filled in the simulated truck side cavities more),

I like to keep my eye out for MPC cars with those Timken trucks.

So do I.  The following are cars I currently have that have those AAR Timken trucks:

9010 GN hopper (also has the separately-applied brakewheel)

9040 Wheaties "Scout" refrigerator car

9061 Santa Fe caboose

9050 Sunoco tank car

9110 & 9130 B&O 4-bay hoppers

I also have the complete 9200 series collection with both metal door guides & the AAR Timken trucks (except for the 9215 that only came with plastic door guides and the 9230 which only had the Symington-Wayne trucks).   But I'm still looking out for more of those early MPC cars with the ARR trucks.

As an aside I also have the 9250 GMCX 3-dome tank car that has the carryover postwar die-cast bar end trucks.

John, where are you looking out for them?

That online auction site that rhymes with flea pay, on the buy/sell forum, train shows/meets, and other venues. 

Not to change topics, but what's the history with that Waterpoxy three dome tank car? I also have one, in a banner box, with die cast bar end trucks and metal brakewheel. Made in 72 or 73, was it simply made with left over PW parts? The last MPC car not made in Michigan? I had also read somewhere that it was planned to be built during the PW era by the Corp, but wasn't.

If you look at your box, it will have a 1971 date on it.