Almost all the SP audio recordings I’ve heard have the steam locomotives blowing their air horns at grade crossings. I know this is to penetrate fog and be heard at high speeds. But that begs the question, when DID the SP steamers blow their whistles, if ever?
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@GameBreaker64 posted:Almost all the SP audio recordings I’ve heard have the steam locomotives blowing their air horns at grade crossings. I know this is to penetrate fog and be heard at high speeds. But that begs the question, when DID the SP steamers blow their whistles, if ever?
Generally, the steam whistle was used ONLY for crew communication, i.e. call out the Flagman after stopping, call the Flagman back in, etc..
Interesting. Funny thing is, it's almost a novelty to hear 4449's air horn these days, even though they were the only thing passengers heard on trips
@GameBreaker64 posted:Interesting. Funny thing is, it's almost a novelty to hear 4449's air horn these days, even though they were the only thing passengers heard on trips
That's because we generally HATE the air horn! People come to see/hear a steam locomotive, and NOT a ****ed diesel. The air horn is used only as a last resort to get people off the track, and on rare occasions when a photo run-by is done twice (once with the whistle and then again with the air horn).
Very true. It's also interesting to note that 4449 has an authentic Daylight whistle on her now, although that's been known for almost 10 years. I do wonder what locomotive it came from though. The only other GS class whistle I know she wore was from -5 No. 4458.
Not to derail the topic, but did the DL&W follow similar practices with the air horns on their steamers?
@GameBreaker64 posted:Very true. It's also interesting to note that 4449 has an authentic Daylight whistle on her now, although that's been known for almost 10 years. I do wonder what locomotive it came from though. The only other GS class whistle I know she wore was from -5 No. 4458.
Don't know were you heard THAT! From the beginning of her American Freedom Train Service, and well into the 1990s, 4449 carried (on the Engineer's side) the whistle from SP&S #700, which was saved/owned by Mr. Joe Crumbly. When the folks behind SP&S #700 eventually restored he to service, her original whistle was then returned to that group, and a Northern Pacific "steam boat" style whistle (owned by crew member Dick Yager) was mounted on the Engineer's side. That NP whistle remained on 4449 until corporate attorney for the Friends of SP4449, Mr. Martin Hanson, discovered and purchased (in the mid 2000s) the GS whistle currently mounted on 4449 to this day. The current whistle even still had the original air operated steam supply valve, which was removed, as the whistle on 4449 was relocated from inside the skyline casing, to forward and right beside the exhaust stack, on the Engineer's side (it is also lever & cable operated in order for the Engineer to 'play' the whistle).
She wore 4458's whistle on the fireman's side during the AFT trips, but it was eventually replaced with an AC Cab Forward 6-chime. The SP&S whistle came from one of the railroad's challengers
@GameBreaker64 posted:She wore 4458's whistle on the fireman's side during the AFT trips, but it was eventually replaced with an AC Cab Forward 6-chime. The SP&S whistle came from one of the railroad's challengers
Where/how are you getting your information?
I got it from her Wikipedia article
@GameBreaker64 posted:I got it from her Wikipedia article
Well, as usual, you can NOT believe some stuff on Wikipedia! I've been on the crew since 1975, and there was NO "whistle from 4458" on the Fireman's side. There was however a Santa Fe 6-chime on the Fireman's side, which was summarily removed on April 26, 1977, while still VERY hot, at San Louis Obispo, and returned to the owner, because he was being such a jerk.
The whistle from SP&S #700 was indeed her original whistle when in regular service, but then the SP&S 4-8-4s and 4-6-6-4s had the same type of whistle anyway.
Thanks for the corrections! I always appreciate when restored steam locomotives use their original whistles, or at least a whistle from the same class/a sister locomotive. It would've been nice if the SP used their engines' steam whistles more often in revenue, but I guess there wasn't really a need for them apart from crew communication as you said.
@GameBreaker64 posted:Thanks for the corrections! I always appreciate when restored steam locomotives use their original whistles, or at least a whistle from the same class/a sister locomotive. It would've been nice if the SP used their engines' steam whistles more often in revenue, but I guess there wasn't really a need for them apart from crew communication as you said.
Not all SP steam locomotives had air horns. Seems like air horns were pretty much confined to the streamlined GS's, AC-9's and AC-10,AC-11 and AC-12 cab forwards.
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:Not all SP steam locomotives had air horns. Seems like air horns were pretty much confined to the streamlined GS's, AC-9's and AC-10,AC-11 and AC-12 cab forwards.
Rusty
Plus, some of the sky-line casing equipped MT class Mountains and P class Pacifics.
@GameBreaker64 posted:Very true. It's also interesting to note that 4449 has an authentic Daylight whistle on her now, although that's been known for almost 10 years. I do wonder what locomotive it came from though. The only other GS class whistle I know she wore was from -5 No. 4458.
When you say the current whistle is "authentic", you must understand that that refers to it's provenance. It is said to have come from an SP GS Class locomotive, however, as to it's type it is not a special "Daylight" whistle. It is a Hancock long-bell, three -chime whistle, one of literally hundreds of off-the-shelf whistles sold by Manning, Maxwell and Moore of New York City, a large locomotive component supply house.
I saw a photo of the current whistle on Trainorders, I believe, about the time it was installed.
There were two versions of that whistle made , a pre-1938 flat top and a post-1938 step top.
The current whistle on 4449 is a flat top, which is the type originally supplied with classes GS-2 and GS-3. GS-4s and GS-5s were delivered with the step top version. GS-1 and the GS-6 did not have the deep whistles. They carried the SP six-chime whistles.
PS: The air horns used on SP steam locomotives were the Leslie Typhon A-200 horns. Doyle and Hot Water may hate them, but I love them because they evoke memories of by beloved GG1s, which carried the same horns.
I have the album "American Freedom Train", a series of Brad Miller recordings released by Soundbird in 1975.
Hate it or not, somebody made liberal use of that A-200 during her break-in runs and her deadhead trip east over Donner. The sounds of her rounding the horseshoe at Blue Canyon, with that horn and the Hancock echoing off the canyon walls, are incredible. 😎
No stinking diseasels were around to ruin the sound either.
cc: Union Pacific
Well, the flat top is probably the closest we'll get to hearing her original whistle until a GS-4 whistle pops up. It'll be kind of weird to know now that she sounds like a GS-2 or 3 instead of a GS-4 lol
@Nick Chillianis posted:I have the album "American Freedom Train", a series of Brad Miller recordings released by Soundbird in 1975.
Hate it or not, somebody made liberal use of that A-200 during her break-in runs and her deadhead trip east over Donner. 😎
I waited trackside in North Riverside (Chicago suburb) when the AFT headed west on the BN racetrack. There are 6 fairly close grade crossings in Berwyn, the adjacent eastern suburb, and I could hear liberal use of both the whistle and air horn from my position.
Rusty
@GameBreaker64 posted:Well, the flat top is probably the closest we'll get to hearing her original whistle until a GS-4 whistle pops up. It'll be kind of weird to know now that she sounds like a GS-2 or 3 instead of a GS-4 lol
The flat top is said to have a rounder, more mellow sound than the step top. That being said, hardly any two steam whistles sounded exactly alike, even two of the same model cast moments apart. They were warning devices, not precision musical instruments, so when it came to tone, pitch and harmonics close enough was good enough. Add to that the placement on the locomotive, the steam pressure, whether superheated or saturated steam was used and the physical condition and wear of a particular whistle and you have an infinite variety of possible sounds.
Listen to these recordings to experience the vast variety of sounds produced by the same type Hancocks on UP Big Boys, Challengers and Northerns.
In 1975 I was 16 years old and a member of the BAERA which operated what is now called "Western Railway Museum" in Rio Vista Junction, CA. A group of 3 of us chased AFT 4449 from Sacramento to Sparks, NV for the deadhead East that went through Donner Pass. I don't remember much use of the air horn but I do, distinctly, remember a diesel in the consist. Specifically, I remember some of our group being disappointed that it was there. I can't remember how apparent it's idling was.
The horseshoe at Blue Canyon was one of the places I very much remember us stopping to film as the member of our group with a sound movie camera wanted to record the bark of her exhaust and see her working hard at slow speeds. There must of been about 200 people with the same idea. Wish I could find the pictures I had of her from that trip, as well as when I had the opportunity a couple years later to ride behind her from Salinas, CA to Oakland as she was on her return to Portland. Unfortunately time and several moves have made it likely that I no longer have them.
@GameBreaker64 posted:Well, the flat top is probably the closest we'll get to hearing her original whistle until a GS-4 whistle pops up.
I'm curious about this statement, i.e. just what is wrong with the whistle on 4449 now?
It'll be kind of weird to know now that she sounds like a GS-2 or 3 instead of a GS-4 lol
Just my opinion but, I believe you are being WAY too picky. We could line up 15 "deep tone" Hancock whistles, and each one would sound ever so slightly different when mounted on 4449. Thus, what's the difference?
You're probably right on this one. Really, as long as it's a GS whistle, it doesn't bother me.
@Hot Water posted:
@GameBreaker64 posted:Well, the flat top is probably the closest we'll get to hearing her original whistle until a GS-4 whistle pops up.
I'm curious about this statement, i.e. just what is wrong with the whistle on 4449 now?
It'll be kind of weird to know now that she sounds like a GS-2 or 3 instead of a GS-4 lol
Just my opinion but, I believe you are being WAY too picky. We could line up 15 "deep tone" Hancock whistles, and each one would sound ever so slightly different when mounted on 4449. Thus, what's the difference?
I would be willing to bet if 4449's original whistle could be located, some people would complain it doesn't sound correct.
Rusty
4449's original whistle was stolen over 40 years ago. Even if we could locate it, it would take a long time. It might've even been destroyed at some point
@Rusty Traque posted:I would be willing to bet if 4449's original whistle could be located, some people would complain it doesn't sound correct.
Rusty
And there you have it!!!!!
@GameBreaker64 posted:4449's original whistle was stolen over 40 years ago.
You might want to go back a LOT farther than 40 years, as she was removed from Oaks Park in Portland and restored for the Freedom Train Service in 1974!
Even if we could locate it, it would take a long time.
We've been "looking" for 45 years so far.
It might've even been destroyed at some point
Entirely possible .
@Byrdie posted:In 1975 I was 16 years old and a member of the BAERA which operated what is now called "Western Railway Museum" in Rio Vista Junction, CA. A group of 3 of us chased AFT 4449 from Sacramento to Sparks, NV for the deadhead East that went through Donner Pass. I don't remember much use of the air horn but I do, distinctly, remember a diesel in the consist. Specifically, I remember some of our group being disappointed that it was there. I can't remember how apparent it's idling was.
The June 23, 1975 deadhead move is documented in both still (Here, here and here) and moving (Here and here) pictures on the web. There was no diesel. Behind 4449's tender was her tool car and three SP coaches. There is no diesel sound of any kind on the Brad Miller recordings. Note the air horn use in the video clips.
The horseshoe at Blue Canyon was one of the places I very much remember us stopping to film as the member of our group with a sound movie camera wanted to record the bark of her exhaust and see her working hard at slow speeds. There must of been about 200 people with the same idea. Wish I could find the pictures I had of her from that trip, as well as when I had the opportunity a couple years later to ride behind her from Salinas, CA to Oakland as she was on her return to Portland. Unfortunately time and several moves have made it likely that I no longer have them.
I attended the National Garden Railroad Convention in Portland, OR in August 2019. This is what 4449 sounded like. NH Joe
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