Who out there makes the best scale streamlined passenger cars for the Southern Railway? Or makes cars that can be easily converted to the SR? And yes, I already know MTH makes SR passenger cars.
Thanks,
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If you want 80' scale cars Atlas O and Goldern Gate Depot/3rd Rail would be your best bet.
Southern management and PR types referred to its "silver" cars made by Pullman Standard, American Machine and Foundry and one other builder, purchased beginning in 1941 and a huge order again in 1947 postwar, as "streamlined"
Of course Southern also referred to its Cab unit diesels--E6,E7s and E8s and D-109/110 and PAs[even F3s] as "streamlined" when they pulled the silver cars. However, we modelers ,at least me, generally refer to Ps-4 #1380,"The Tennessean",when we think of streamlined power on the Southern.
Sean is right in naming some importers of higher quality cars as sources. But I am unsure if the Sunset/3rd Rail/GGD group has any lightweight units that could be redecorated as close to accurate "Southern Streamlined".
I have one 80' 5-car aluminum lightweight set-Observation to REA Express Baggage,, painted in the Sylvan Green with a wide white band and wide gold striping top and bottom located on the lower section of the car. Imported by Weaver from Korea.
I'm not sure when I bought them but a clue that they are older is that they have window silouettes instead of actual folks.
The Green Cars are scale length, a full 20" dimension car end to car end.
Of course Southern also referred to its Cab unit diesels--E6,E7s and E8s and D-109/110 and PAs[even F3s] as "streamlined" when they pulled the silver cars. However, we modelers ,at least me, generally refer to Ps-4 #1380,"The Tennessean",when we think of streamlined power on the Southern.
Sean is right in naming some importers of higher quality cars as sources. But I am unsure if the Sunset/3rd Rail/GGD group has any lightweight units that could be redecorated as close to accurate "Southern Streamlined".
I have one 80' 5-car aluminum lightweight set-Observation to REA Express Baggage,, painted in the Sylvan Green with a wide white band and wide gold striping top and bottom located on the lower section of the car. Imported by Weaver from Korea.
I'm not sure when I bought them but a clue that they are older is that they have window silouettes instead of actual folks.
The Green Cars are scale length, a full 20" dimension car end to car end.
When looking at 'steamlined (light-weight) passenger cars, most sleepers were rather generic in accomodation and could be found on a number of roads. Pullman, ACF and Budd all provided cars with very similar layouts of the interior accomodation. So with sleepers for the most part, the exterior finish and lettering is basically all that was different about them.
The 10/6 was the most common sleeper and it was built with two basic configuratons: One put 10 roomettes at the vestibule end and 6 double bedrooms at the opposite end. Another way was to put 5 roomettes at each end of the car with 6 double bedrooms in the middle, where higher paying passengers got a better ride. C&O had a number of these in their "City of - - - -" cars. Of course the window arrangements for each kind of 10/6 were different.
Coaches could vary. 'Apartment' coaches had the interior divided into two sections and were common on southern-based railroads. Some put a labeled door between the two sections showing "White" on one side, "Colored" on the other.
C&O's streamlined coaches had the car's service lockers (normally at the ends) in the middle of the car with a short corridor around them to one side. That way, passengers at one end of a coach could not see into the other end. It was said they had that done to overcome the 'tunnel' appearance of a fully open coach.
Most differences in light-weight cars were found in the layout of lounge cars, observations and to some extent, dining cars. Those interior differences could be seen in the window arrangements to suit each.
For the cars that Southern ran, photos would be the best resource as well as ome floor plans to help figure out which car is what kind. Southern, like ACL, Seaboard and C&O, ran through cars in their own road names to New York over the PRR. And in some cases, an entire consist ran through as a joint operation such as the Crescent Limited, Silver Comet, Orange Blossom Special, FFV, etc.
Ed Bommer
The 10/6 was the most common sleeper and it was built with two basic configuratons: One put 10 roomettes at the vestibule end and 6 double bedrooms at the opposite end. Another way was to put 5 roomettes at each end of the car with 6 double bedrooms in the middle, where higher paying passengers got a better ride. C&O had a number of these in their "City of - - - -" cars. Of course the window arrangements for each kind of 10/6 were different.
Coaches could vary. 'Apartment' coaches had the interior divided into two sections and were common on southern-based railroads. Some put a labeled door between the two sections showing "White" on one side, "Colored" on the other.
C&O's streamlined coaches had the car's service lockers (normally at the ends) in the middle of the car with a short corridor around them to one side. That way, passengers at one end of a coach could not see into the other end. It was said they had that done to overcome the 'tunnel' appearance of a fully open coach.
Most differences in light-weight cars were found in the layout of lounge cars, observations and to some extent, dining cars. Those interior differences could be seen in the window arrangements to suit each.
For the cars that Southern ran, photos would be the best resource as well as ome floor plans to help figure out which car is what kind. Southern, like ACL, Seaboard and C&O, ran through cars in their own road names to New York over the PRR. And in some cases, an entire consist ran through as a joint operation such as the Crescent Limited, Silver Comet, Orange Blossom Special, FFV, etc.
Ed Bommer
Ok well what cars would best go with 3rd Rails new Southern E7 coming out next year?
thanks,
thanks,
Dave
The 5 Weaver lightweight Cars are 80'--a full 20" end to end + couplers.
Older cars from the mid-90s with the window silouettes. Three of the cars are from the "River " series---Catawba River, etc.
The 5 Weaver lightweight Cars are 80'--a full 20" end to end + couplers.
Older cars from the mid-90s with the window silouettes. Three of the cars are from the "River " series---Catawba River, etc.
I am not a real aficionado of the Southern Railroad but do have some insight on your project.
The Southern used a wide variety of lightweight cars in the streamline era. Mostly PS built cars and some Budd I am sure. From what I have read a lot of the fleets of sleepers used on the Washington Florida trains such as the Champion, SCL, etc finally ended up on the Southern and Crescent service.
E7's were a popular locomotive and the Southern paint was very attractive. Combined with the simple but elegant stainless/simulated stainless consists it would be a nice train.
You might consider the scale length K-Line cars from a bout 10 years ago. These models can be modified easily to reflect a fairly accurate consist to a degree. You would need to re-letter them and paint some roofs black but they would terrific.
PS chair car with black roof and stainless panels still attached
PS Sleeper Pacolet River
PS Sleeper Rivana River
Budd Diner without painted roof
Crescent Harbor PS built
Budd car with Black painted roof
If this car is any indication why they painted the roof black in later years? Rust on the all steel PS built Alapaha River.
Some 1970's Crescent photos with some Amtrak gear on loan...
A Budd Penn Central car in the 1970's
Ahead of the Budd car is a PS car with a black roof. The PS cars did not have the rust free life the Budd cars did and many had the pretty flutted panels removed due to severe rust.
A good example of a Southern Budd chair car.
The fun part is the research. As you can see the majority of the fleet was rather dated and hand me downs versus the fabulous fleets of the ATSF or NYC. Southern maintained a legendary passenger service through 1978. My hats off to the great Southern Railroad!
The Southern used a wide variety of lightweight cars in the streamline era. Mostly PS built cars and some Budd I am sure. From what I have read a lot of the fleets of sleepers used on the Washington Florida trains such as the Champion, SCL, etc finally ended up on the Southern and Crescent service.
E7's were a popular locomotive and the Southern paint was very attractive. Combined with the simple but elegant stainless/simulated stainless consists it would be a nice train.
You might consider the scale length K-Line cars from a bout 10 years ago. These models can be modified easily to reflect a fairly accurate consist to a degree. You would need to re-letter them and paint some roofs black but they would terrific.
PS chair car with black roof and stainless panels still attached
PS Sleeper Pacolet River
PS Sleeper Rivana River
Budd Diner without painted roof
Crescent Harbor PS built
Budd car with Black painted roof
If this car is any indication why they painted the roof black in later years? Rust on the all steel PS built Alapaha River.
Some 1970's Crescent photos with some Amtrak gear on loan...
A Budd Penn Central car in the 1970's
Ahead of the Budd car is a PS car with a black roof. The PS cars did not have the rust free life the Budd cars did and many had the pretty flutted panels removed due to severe rust.
A good example of a Southern Budd chair car.
The fun part is the research. As you can see the majority of the fleet was rather dated and hand me downs versus the fabulous fleets of the ATSF or NYC. Southern maintained a legendary passenger service through 1978. My hats off to the great Southern Railroad!
erik, thanks for the southern pictures!!!!..........rogerw.
quote:Originally posted by DaveJfr0:
Put those K-line 20' cars next to the AtlasO CZ cars and tell me which you like better. I suppose if one doesn't want to wait a bit longer, then the k-line's would do, but the windows alone are too rectangular for me to consider repainting.
The weaver cars…I would need to look at it, but I would assume the window arrangements are too generic and they did not have interiors. It depends on the car as well…some cars were PS and others were budd, often distinguished by the roofs.
Generic the K-Line's may be but the Budd "flat top" cars Atlas will be doing are the 10-6 and would require major surgery removing the center skirts. It is unclear at this point if Atlas will be producing the section cars later converted to day coaches; but one of those would work. The CZ cars would or could do for the Budd cars but I would seek out the PRB ATSF pre-war Budd bodied cars for these coaches.
The K-Line cars are not any better really and with the right work they do make an outstanding PS body. I have seen these reworked at the O Scale Conventions and they look outstanding done right.
But I agree there is no clear answer to a project of this nature. I chose to model what could be done accurately and within my skill sets reach and N Scale sized budget..
I would also consider doing the following:
Look up and find unbuilt or built up but rebuildable "American Lightweight Car Co." kits.. Or "Great Trains" Ralph Brown's old company. these nice kits use styrene sides and Grandt Line details, extruded styrene roof stock.
A gauge one sample of his kits
A built up sample of the Espee PS fluted kits.
These styrene sides can be modified to make the correct window arrangements. With a high degree of work you can use styrene extruded shapes to simulate the fluted sides on the PS cars and even the Budd although you need to figure out the roof square fine fluted pressings. The use of Wasatch trucks and the right under-body details from either Kiel Line or PSC and your Southern cars will come to life; albeit a load of work but I suspect worth the effort.
OK Engines makes aluminum shells for Budd streamlined cars. They had talked about offering Pullman fluted cars this year but I haven't seen anything yet.
I have 2 of them:
They offer a kit, but IMO the aluminum shell is the only part I'd buy (and the window plastic). The ends and trucks need to be upgraded, I also upgraded the floor. No interior or decals are supplied. I made new ends/doors using styrene and plexiglass, but I need to add detail to the ends (see PRRTrainguy's (Mike) posts on his Silver Meteor, he has made some nice looking ends:
SILVER METEOR
I made floors using 3/16" thick acrylic plastic and bought interior parts from PSC and Keil-Line and used styrene for the walls. I bought trucks (not really correct type for Seaboard) from GGD.
It may not be the cheapest or easiest way to go, but the good thing is they will cut windows anywhere you want them and have all the Budd plans as far as I know. To me, window placement makes or breaks a passenger car for a particular RR. If you know the Budd plan number that's about all they need to cut them out.
I have 2 of them:
They offer a kit, but IMO the aluminum shell is the only part I'd buy (and the window plastic). The ends and trucks need to be upgraded, I also upgraded the floor. No interior or decals are supplied. I made new ends/doors using styrene and plexiglass, but I need to add detail to the ends (see PRRTrainguy's (Mike) posts on his Silver Meteor, he has made some nice looking ends:
SILVER METEOR
I made floors using 3/16" thick acrylic plastic and bought interior parts from PSC and Keil-Line and used styrene for the walls. I bought trucks (not really correct type for Seaboard) from GGD.
It may not be the cheapest or easiest way to go, but the good thing is they will cut windows anywhere you want them and have all the Budd plans as far as I know. To me, window placement makes or breaks a passenger car for a particular RR. If you know the Budd plan number that's about all they need to cut them out.
So, there were no "white and green" passenger cars like MTH has made? How about the Tenneessean? I have the white and green E3s and would like to have the white and green set of cars, but if the're not prototypical...
Wally
Wally,
The Tennesean was stainless steel.
ChipR
All stainless, O.K. Any green stripe or lettering?
Wally
For my two cents, I would say MTH makes an excellent 5 car set - I just got them last month. The detail, both inside and out, is incredible. The cars measure 19" long, diaphragm to diaphragm. The set number is MTH 20-65194, Southern Streamlined (Ribbed) 70" Passenger Set.
Each car has passengers in different poses. One car actually has a bunch of Navy guys! I particularly like the lighted SR drumhead on the observation car....
Ben - OOPS - sorry, I just noticed that you said you had already seen the MTH cars - I missed that bit!
Originally Posted by Cho Cho Wally:
So, there were no "white and green" passenger cars like MTH has made? How about the Tenneessean? I have the white and green E3s and would like to have the white and green set of cars, but if the're not prototypical...
Wally
Southern never had the green and white coaches to my knowledge - but they sure are pretty - just not prototypical. I was originally gonna get the MTH Southern green and white coaches - but opted for the silver streamlined ones when I found out that the green and whites never existed. I wish they had, as the green and white set was much less expensive than the silvers!
Of course, there's a lot that's NOT prototypical on my layout - but I try my best.
By 1960 trains such as "The Birmingham Special" and "The Pelican" had lost most of their silver cars in favor of rebuilt and modernized heavyweight cars.Golden Gate Depot is making modernized heavyweights in Pullman green with Pullman lettering.
Some of the Golden Gate heavweight coaches and a N&W and PRR express car would be a good standin for a Southern passenger train untill someone offers a real SR passenger set.The recent MTH Premier set looked nice but good luck finding any of those.At least for me this would work if I were lucky enough to get one of the Southern E7s.
Here is "The Pelican" near the end in the late 1960s when it was down to one unit and a single modernized heavyweight coach. http://www.google.com/search?q=the+pelican+southern+railway&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS346US346&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=RHWiUZWaH4be8ATsxYDoCA&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1440&bih=683#facrc=_&imgrc=8DHdMBgxzlv6aM%3A%3BYI0V4NmVaXTEjM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.american-rails.com%252Fimages%252FSouthern_MB_FP7.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.american-rails.com%252Fpelican.html%3B480%3B326
