Which way forward?

Federal law dictates that locomotives other than steam display the letter "F" to designate exactly which is the "Front". Many railroads had their GP7/GP9 and SD7/SD9 units with either the short hood or the long hood designated "Front", thus the need/requirement for the letter "F".

rrman posted:

Is this some arcane AAR or federal rule?  Don't recall seeing steamers with a F painted by "cowcatcher" (excepting the SP cab forwards, and even those I am pretty sure the engineer knew which way engine was to be aimed.

I'll leave it to you to determine whether you think it is arcane, but it is a Federal Regulation that locomotives other than steam locomotives must have the front identified by a letter F of the prescribed size, painted onto the frame at the end designated to be the front.  Never mind that it is more useful on an F3B than on an F3A.  It is one of many Federal Regulations that use one standard. 

You may recall that the first electric engines (and the first diesel-electrics) were of box cab and steeple cab configuration, looking the same on each end.  Other Federal Regulations refer to the front of a locomotive and thus there is a reason that it be permanently identified.  Also, as Laidoffsick pointed out, crew members giving hand, lantern, or radio signals to the Engineer, to go forward or back up, need to know which side of the locomotive the Engineer is on, and which direction the locomotive will move when a particular signal is acted upon.

an FRA Rule which in turn created the GCOR rule (General Code of Operating Rules) that we as operating employees have to follow based on the "F" stencil on the locomotive.

When switching or spotting industries many times we have cars on both ends of the engine. The "F" determines whether we tell the engineer "A Head" or "Back Up". Nothing is left to chance, there is a written rule for everything. If there isn't a rule yet, as soon as an incident happens, there will be a new rule relating to that incident. There is no such thing as "Common sense" in railroading any more.....those days are LONG GONE.

Laidoffsick posted:

an FRA Rule which in turn created the GCOR rule (General Code of Operating Rules) that we as operating employees have to follow based on the "F" stencil on the locomotive.

When switching or spotting industries many times we have cars on both ends of the engine. The "F" determines whether we tell the engineer "A Head" or "Back Up". Nothing is left to chance, there is a written rule for everything. If there isn't a rule yet, as soon as an incident happens, there will be a new rule relating to that incident. There is no such thing as "Common sense" in railroading any more.....those days are LONG GONE.

When did that happen? We never had such a rule!

I think the "F" has more to do with the way the MU box is wired so that when units are MUed they all go in the same direction.

Big Jim posted:

Laidoffsick posted:

an FRA Rule which in turn created the GCOR rule (General Code of Operating Rules) that we as operating employees have to follow based on the "F" stencil on the locomotive.

When switching or spotting industries many times we have cars on both ends of the engine. The "F" determines whether we tell the engineer "A Head" or "Back Up". Nothing is left to chance, there is a written rule for everything. If there isn't a rule yet, as soon as an incident happens, there will be a new rule relating to that incident. There is no such thing as "Common sense" in railroading any more.....those days are LONG GONE.

When did that happen? We never had such a rule!

I think the "F" has more to do with the way the MU box is wired so that when units are MUed they all go in the same direction.

What about early diesel units that were not equipped with MU? They still had to have one end or the other designated as Front, with the mandated letter "F".

 it has nothing to do with MU , the MU cable is a pass thru . , crew members need to be on the same page as to what end is forward to give proper hand and especially radio instructions as to direction of travel. don't forget some railroads ran long hood first some short and some locos had duel controls . I work for a short line and we have some of each. it also has nothing to do with the ARR , it is an FRA regulation in CFR part 229 of locomotive safety standards that is sometimes carried over into individual railroads rule books. it is required even if its not a part of the railroads rules. The FRA publishes Regulations not rules and the railroad bases there rule book on the regulations and are subject to FRA approval .   process is the same in other parts of the transportation as in the FAA for the aviation industry. 

rrman posted:

Is this some arcane AAR or federal rule?  

Here it is:

§229.11   Locomotive identification.

(a) The letter “F” shall be legibly shown on each side of every locomotive near the end which for identification purposes will be known as the front end.

The feds are big on "one size fits all" rules, so if there was one diesel that needed an "F", they all get it.  It also is of assistance to inspectors (both Federal and RR employed) in writing up defects as to whether they are on the right or left side, etc.

Part 229 

They apparently have no such rule in New Zealand :

Rusty

To add to all this "F" for Front requirement, EMD locomotives were/are designed and built with the short hood end as the front, and this the number 1 traction motor location, as shown on the wiring diagrams. However, the letter "F" could/would be placed on whichever end the customer specified, i.e. short hood Front, or long hood Front.

Those railroads that specified that the long hood was Front, had to be mindful of which traction motor was being reported as failed or needing inspection, because the No. 1 traction motor on the EMD electrical drawings might NOT be the specific "No.1" traction motor on a railroad with the long hood forward.

Kelly Anderson posted:

It also is of assistance to inspectors (both Federal and RR employed) in writing up defects as to whether they are on the right or left side, etc.

Part 229 

Thank you  Kelly, I knew there was something there that I forgot.
But, it does matter how the MU is wired when the F is on the long hood end, it wasn't just put slapped on there for good looks as Hot Water post seems to suggest.
However, the F is not for hand signals nor radio instructions, despite what you young whipper snappers may think. Heck, by the time I left, only the old heads knew how to give a hand signal! The lazy youngsters would just sit out there right in front of you on the short hood end and talk on the radio!!!

Big Jim posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

It also is of assistance to inspectors (both Federal and RR employed) in writing up defects as to whether they are on the right or left side, etc.

Part 229 

Thank you  Kelly, I knew there was something there that I forgot.
But, it does matter how the MU is wired when the F is on the long hood end, it wasn't just put slapped on there for good looks as Hot Water post seems to suggest.

Well, believe it or not, both EMD and GE "slap the F" on whichever end the customer wants. There were/are no changes in the wiring for MU on locomotives with long hood forward. Whichever way the Engineer places the reverser in the control stand, then thats the way a single unit, or a whole consist will move.

However, the F is not for hand signals nor radio instructions, despite what you young whipper snappers may think. Heck, by the time I left, only the old heads knew how to give a hand signal! The lazy youngsters would just sit out there right in front of you on the short hood end and talk on the radio!!!

Big Jim posted:

 

However, the F is not for hand signals nor radio instructions, despite what you young whipper snappers may think. Heck, by the time I left, only the old heads knew how to give a hand signal! The lazy youngsters would just sit out there right in front of you on the short hood end and talk on the radio!!!

spoken like a true old head 

How long have you been retired now???????????

GCOR Rule 6.5 Shoving movements

"Direction will be described in relationship to the FRONT of the controlling locomotive (F Stencil)"

and direction is given via radio or hand signals 😜

Also in RCO section of the GCOR relating to the same thing

hand signals and radio instructions are given based on the "F Stencil".... I was taught that as a new hire 22 years ago, its NOT NEW

Okay, there is a thread going on the NGDF about the correct whistle signal to give leaving the station when the engine is running in reverse, pulling with the "F" end pointing at the caboose.  Two shorts or three?

The majority opinion over there is two shorts.

Kelly Anderson posted:

Okay, there is a thread going on the NGDF about the correct whistle signal to give leaving the station when the engine is running in reverse, pulling with the "F" end pointing at the caboose.  Two shorts or three?

The majority opinion over there is two shorts.

Two should be the obvious choice since the train as a whole is moving forward. 

SouthernMike posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

Okay, there is a thread going on the NGDF about the correct whistle signal to give leaving the station when the engine is running in reverse, pulling with the "F" end pointing at the caboose.  Two shorts or three?

The majority opinion over there is two shorts.

Two should be the obvious choice since the train as a whole is moving forward. 

Well, according to FRA practices, the whistle signal should be 3 shorts, as the locomotive is backing up, regardless which way the train is going. At least that's my opinion.

3 shorts, based on the rules. The engine is going to back up based on the "F". However there could be more specific rules for the station and or commuter/passenger operations at that location.

Your question does not give nearly enough specifics, but it doesn't matter which way the train is going......which direction is the engine going? How would you instruct the engineer to move? 

Which leads us right back to that "F" stencil 😉

To me, its the direction the train is to be moving, irregardless if engine long/short hood/ control cab is oriented  forward or backwards relative to the attached train; it's the actual direction we want train to move.  Two honks moving forward, three moving reverse backing up, one all stop.

But then again, I am just a know nothing armchair railroader with anything to contribute.....

Laidoffsick posted:

GCOR Rule 6.5 Shoving movements

"Direction will be described in relationship to the FRONT of the controlling locomotive (F Stencil)"

and direction is given via radio or hand signals 😜

Also in RCO section of the GCOR relating to the same thing

hand signals and radio instructions are given based on the "F Stencil".... I was taught that as a new hire 22 years ago, its NOT NEW

 

I've been retired six years and there was no rule like you speak of in the NS rule book!
We never needed a stupid rule like that!

Going forward while backing up...

Rusty

Big Jim posted:

Laidoffsick posted:

GCOR Rule 6.5 Shoving movements

"Direction will be described in relationship to the FRONT of the controlling locomotive (F Stencil)"

and direction is given via radio or hand signals 😜

Also in RCO section of the GCOR relating to the same thing

hand signals and radio instructions are given based on the "F Stencil".... I was taught that as a new hire 22 years ago, its NOT NEW

 

I've been retired six years and there was no rule like you speak of in the NS rule book!
We never needed a stupid rule like that!

If I dont know which end is the FRONT, how am I supposed to know which direction to tell you to go??

The use of common sense has been long gone on the railroad, you know that! The rule book is full of stupid rules....you know that too!

Laidoffsick posted:

If I dont know which end is the FRONT, how am I supposed to know which direction to tell you to go??

The use of common sense has been long gone on the railroad, you know that! The rule book is full of stupid rules....you know that too!

Really!!!
You mean to tell me that you don't have enough common sense to know which way you are going? Or, in the case of a yard crew, which way you are working?  

I do have to put a huge part of the blame on how new-hires were/are being trained at the corporate training facilities. For example, there was not one new-hire just back from Atlanta that I worked with that knew how to hold a lantern. I had to show them how to hold the lantern so that they wouldn't get hurt in the performance of their duties! One would think that being as safety conscious as the NS claims to be, that they would have knowledgeable people to train their new employees. Obviously, that wasn't the case!

YES I DO..... but not everyone does, hence the rule. Come on Jim, you know that common sense is not allowed in railroading. There is a rule for EVERYTHING!.

A new hire, who knows nothing about trains, may not know which is the front, especially if they run long hood forward. 

Where is YOUR common sense????? 

You must be one of those old heads that was born with a lantern in one hand and a reverser in the other.

Kelly Anderson posted:

Okay, there is a thread going on the NGDF about the correct whistle signal to give leaving the station when the engine is running in reverse, pulling with the "F" end pointing at the caboose.  Two shorts or three?

The majority opinion over there is two shorts.

The proper whistle signal for releasing brakes and for initiating forward movement is two long.

Two short is properly used to acknowledge a signal given, such as a highball from the Conductor after station work is completed.

As far as the proper whistle signal when movement is to be initiated but not in response to a hand or lantern signal:

• Sound two long when the train is going to move in the direction in which it is authorized by timetable, train order or track warrant.  Sound three short when the train is going to move in the reverse of the direction authorized.  The orientation or position of the locomotive in a train has no bearing on the direction of movement of the train.  If the train is authorized only by Yard Limits or Restricted Limits, then the end displaying the marker(s) should be considered the rear of the train for the purpose of sounding whistle signals.
• Light engines sound the prescribed signal based on the designated front of the locomotive, unless the engine is the entire train authorized.  If the light engine is authorized as a train without cars and thus displaying a marker to the rear, then treat it the same as a train consisting of engine and cars.
• If a train has arrived at its final terminal (and its authorization has thus expired) sound the proper whistle signal for initiating movement in forward or reverse in relation to which end is carrying the marker(s).  

This is way too much to put in writing.  Experienced railroaders can reason these things out by using the wording of the rule and applying common sense.  If they cannot agree, they should request an interpretation from a designated official of the railroad.  If they cannot agree with that interpretation, they may petition higher management, although this is really just careful reading of the rule and common sense in applying it,  and is definitely best kept at the lowest level necessary for safe operation.  

What is of primary importance is that all who are in the vicinity of the train understand that the train is about to move and which direction it will move.