Who Says 3 Rail Isn't Prototypical?

So THAT's where the concept came from!!

OTOH...looks like a safety rail on the approach to the trough....for the fireman who was a bit too aggressive in dropping the scoop....maybe?

Otherwise the trough might have been like Maxwell House...."Good to the last drop!"

@TrainDane3768 posted:

I was doing some research on NYC water scoops and came across this picture

Couldn't believe how much this looked like 3 rail o scale lol. I found it in a pdf about track pans and water scoops on the NYC. Here's a link https://nycshs.files.wordpress...5/11/waterscoops.pdf

Now, do you know why that third rail is there?...

Pat

Interesting. Says in the PDF that it is a guard rail.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Interesting. Says in the PDF that it is a guard rail.

But,,,,,,,what does it guard?

@Hot Water posted:

But,,,,,,,what does it guard?

They gotta get this one right Jack, it’s as simple as simple gets,.....

Pat

@dkdkrd posted:

So THAT's where the concept came from!!

OTOH...looks like a safety rail on the approach to the trough....for the fireman who was a bit too aggressive in dropping the scoop....maybe?

Otherwise the trough might have been like Maxwell House...."Good to the last drop!"

No extra points for editing your reply!.....but seems like maybe you’re not sure?..😉

Pat

Only thing I had read before(last year) was the use of colored flags to indicate whether they were clear to drop to take on water or not as well as warning before the end to pick up the scoop. This article says they used purple lights, I think I had read somewhere else the use of lights but couldn't remember what color they were.

As far as the guards, the article doesn't says, but did someone cheat by editing their answer?

Honestly, I thought that if the scoop were down when they shouldn't be or popped down beforehand that they would be damaged slightly or substantial.

You guys ( except Jack) don’t seem 100% sure,....don’t give up!...somebody  be 100% positive with an authoritative answer,....

Pat

Could you just imagine what would happen if the bottom lip/edge of the tender water pickup scoop contacted a the top edge of a tie at a high rate of speed?

@harmonyards posted:

You guys ( except Jack) don’t seem 100% sure,....don’t give up!...somebody  be 100% positive with an authoritative answer,....

Pat

Only stating what I've read Pat. I haven't read enough material on track pans as it is. I do know I had talked to Ryan(Lionel) about it at York I think 2018. He had said he had considered having Steve from Ross model one for them but didn't get it done. Kind of wondering if they would have made it to what is seen above or just the bare minimum to what I had considered when I was messing on designs.

The rail was a safety feature to keep the scoop from dropping off the end of the track pan ramps and being forcibly removed should the fireman miss or mistime the signal to pull up the scoop as they tried to use as much of the pan as possible.

Obviously there’s a water tower bout a 1/4 mile or so in the pic the OP posted, yes, in fact the rail is for keeping the scoop from being ripped off, the scoop is steam operated, so once it shoots down, it’s down till the firemen picks it back up, the scoop has a replaceable shoe on the bottom, that’s the wear part that can be easily replaced as a running repair ( roundhouse repairs) ....I happen to have a worn shoe that grandad replaced during his time at Harmon, .....it’s just a skid plate with a couple of holes, and a big ol wear mark up the middle,....ahead of the rail, you’ll see what looks like a funny track system, once the scoop lands on the rail, it comes into the “ guide” portion that aligns the scoop to drop down in the pan.....sometimes on the fly water scoops were ripped off, but that repair would have also been done as a running repair,.....

Pat

Best example of a prototype for 3-rail that I know of was the ca.1900 New York, New Haven & Hartford live-center-rail electrified track.  There were two installations:  one on Boston's south shore and the other in the Hartford-Berlin-New Britain Connecticut area.  Pickups were sliding shoes like on Marx and other low-end O-gauge, not rollers.  The center rail was slightly flattened.

It’s always refreshing to read posts from members who convey factual information that addresses the thread!  
Thank you Bruce

I'll probably hang a print of that photo in my train room and the next time some killjoy comments on the "toy like" attributes of three rail I will insist they meditate in front of it for half an hour...

NYC streetcars in Manhattan operated with a third rail slot which had a "hot" connection below the ground for decades.

I remember yrs back a documentary mentioning that one of the first times they tried the water scoop, do to the amount of pressure it blew the rivets out on the tender, not sure if it was because not opening a pressure relief (hatch???).

@Trussman posted:

I remember yrs back a documentary mentioning that one of the first times they tried the water scoop, do to the amount of pressure it blew the rivets out on the tender, not sure if it was because not opening a pressure relief (hatch???).

That was in the earlier stages of developing the process of taking on water at higher speeds. Prior to the design of the NYC "PT" tender (the 'PT' stood for Passenger Tender, and NOT pedestal tender as some folks think/claim), water was "scooped" at speeds below 50 MPH, however during the testing at higher speeds with a "regular" Hudson tender, the rapid pressure increase when scooping water at speeds over 50 MPH, the rivets were over stressed, and one side of the tender actually developed a good sized crack, which leaked water. All such information is well documented in the New York Central Technical Society's website.

@Hot Water posted:

That was in the earlier stages of developing the process of taking on water at higher speeds. Prior to the design of the NYC "PT" tender (the 'PT' stood for Passenger Tender, and NOT pedestal tender as some folks think/claim), water was "scooped" at speeds below 50 MPH, however during the testing at higher speeds with a "regular" Hudson tender, the rapid pressure increase when scooping water at speeds over 50 MPH, the rivets were over stressed, and one side of the tender actually developed a good sized crack, which leaked water. All such information is well documented in the New York Central Technical Society's website.

Yep!...I’ve got pics of that, they ripped that tender open like a tuna can,...they sure were learning as they were earning, ....i remember seeing a NYC in-house training film where the film crew mounted cameras on top of the tank, and attempted to film that process, ....they got a little wet,....😆😆

Pat

And now, for the million dollar question, .....was the tender that got ripped open done by accident or on purpose?.....

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

And now, for the million dollar question, .....was the tender that got ripped open done by accident or on purpose?.....

Pat

I believe it was by accident, but they sure learned a lot towards the design/development of the PT tenders, which were capable of scooping water at speeds to 80 MPH.

@Hot Water posted:

I believe it was by accident, but they sure learned a lot towards the design/development of the PT tenders, which were capable of scooping water at speeds to 80 MPH.

Correct, they were actually testing the new scoop design, which led to a pressure release problem,.....definitely an “uh-oh” moment,.....

Pat

Another "interesting" side-story of the NYC water scooping operations; one of the "ideal" places for hobos to ride was inside the first diaphragm of the first car coupled behind the passenger steam locomotive. Thus, it was not uncommon for the hobo to experience quite a shower of water during scooping water at track speed. During the warmer months, such was not a big deal. However, to the sever winter months, there were a few cases of the passenger train arriving in Chicago, and when the train was uncoupled from the locomotive, low and behold, there was a hobo frozen solid in the ice-block from the water scooping process.

@Hot Water posted:

Another "interesting" side-story of the NYC water scooping operations; one of the "ideal" places for hobos to ride was inside the first diaphragm of the first car coupled behind the passenger steam locomotive. Thus, it was not uncommon for the hobo to experience quite a shower of water during scooping water at track speed. During the warmer months, such was not a big deal. However, to the sever winter months, there were a few cases of the passenger train arriving in Chicago, and when the train was uncoupled from the locomotive, low and behold, there was a hobo frozen solid in the ice-block from the water scooping process.

This is all very true, AND documented,....

Pat

About the hobo, I believe one of the articles I found spoke about that as well as showering ground crews in the area. I thought one of the other instances of a hobo resulted in serious injury. One of the other interesting things I found on YouTube were a number of on the fly videos ranging from 999 4-4-0 which Edison shot some of the footage, as well as some of the larger NYC steam. I had been trying to get some information from the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania before all the stuff(the other "s" word I mean) and sort of got held up. Hopefully when things get back to something maybe I can continue my research with the museum.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

About the hobo, I believe one of the articles I found spoke about that as well as showering ground crews in the area. I thought one of the other instances of a hobo resulted in serious injury. One of the other interesting things I found on YouTube were a number of on the fly videos ranging from 999 4-4-0 which Edison shot some of the footage, as well as some of the larger NYC steam. I had been trying to get some information from the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania before all the stuff(the other "s" word I mean) and sort of got held up. Hopefully when things get back to something maybe I can continue my research with the museum.

People in trains on opposite tracks would get showered if the windows were down, which was often the case in warmer weather, in cars with out AC, all sorts of stuff they had to sort out, .....lots of useful information on the NYCHS site, click on about NYC and scroll down to the track pans and water scoops section, the pic the OP posted is in that section as well, sure hope he had permission, or at least thought about it, or bye-bye thread,.....I’d you don’t already belong, you owe it to yourself to join Dave, the NYC Headlight publication that comes out is a wealth of knowledge and really cool stuff, it’s like the newspaper for the NYC system......

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

People in trains on opposite tracks would get showered if the windows were down, which was often the case in warmer weather, in cars with out AC, all sorts of stuff they had to sort out, .....lots of useful information on the NYCHS site, click on about NYC and scroll down to the track pans and water scoops section, the pic the OP posted is in that section as well, sure hope he had permission, or at least thought about it, or bye-bye thread,.....I’d you don’t already belong, you owe it to yourself to join Dave, the NYC Headlight publication that comes out is a wealth of knowledge and really cool stuff, it’s like the newspaper for the NYC system......

Pat

Been meaning to get joining done. I registered for the store a couple of weeks back and just haven't gotten myself some extra time with all the stuff going on. After Wednesday time is what I'll have, though not necessarily a good thing.

One thing I wanted to ask about Pat. You spoke about having a shoe, guessing it is in storage and or not readily accessible? Sort of wonder what that looks like exactly. I know what a plow shoe looks like, but sure it isn't even close to looking like that since way different applications.

Oh, also, most of the track pans that come up in searches look to be in the UK. When I first looked that up, that is mostly what came up. One of the PDF's was all about the English designs and such, was pretty interesting but wasn't what I was looking for.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Been meaning to get joining done. I registered for the store a couple of weeks back and just haven't gotten myself some extra time with all the stuff going on. After Wednesday time is what I'll have, though not necessarily a good thing.

One thing I wanted to ask about Pat. You spoke about having a shoe, guessing it is in storage and or not readily accessible? Sort of wonder what that looks like exactly. I know what a plow shoe looks like, but sure it isn't even close to looking like that since way different applications.

I have a display set up at my garage with grandads stuff from the NYC, his tools, that shoe, some old brake linings from a S1, stuff like that, grandad called them “smalls” .....ain’t nothing small about that stuff, ...I’ll take pics of it all when we open back up after the Holidays, we shut down for Christmas beings we’re a hot rod shop, and the stuff we work on can wait ( thank god ) one cool thing about the Harmon electric car shops, where grandad did most of his mechanic work, after a year they made you a really nice stainless steel tool carrier, in shop, stamped NYC, I use it everyday going from job to job to carry my junk,......a lot of his tools were made on sight by the machine shop,..... neat stuff,...

Pat

Gotta love that Pat.