Steam locomotive frames were cast only late in their career. For most of the time they were being built, their frames were fabricated from bar stock and so forth. The cast frames were an improvement in that they joints didn't work apart (many were also cast with the air reservoirs cast inside, eliminating the need for external tanks). No doubt, such frames could be fabricated by welding, but it would take a great deal of work to engineer the method so as to survive the many stresses. CAD/CAM would help once the individual stresses are explored an understood, but that is a great deal of effort for one excursion motor.
Kelly Anderson posted:David Johnston posted:In most cases large castings are no longer necessary because welding technology has advanced to the point where fabrications are as good and cheeper than most large castings.I would edit the last few words of your post to "better than and cheaper than most large castings". If Rudolf Diesel had choked on a sausage with his namesake engine never invented, and if Baldwin, Lima, and Alco were still building steam locomotives today, the majority of what had been cast in steel, would now be built up of welded assemblies.
Look at it this way, a Nimitz class aircraft carrier is nothing but a great big weldment, and made in America to boot.
Not really. I doubt he was working in a vacuum. If old Rudy didn't invent the diesel, someone else would've.
Rusty
Matt Kirsch posted:You could run your fantasy GG1 on any railroad you want, by powering it with a diesel genset in a disguised baggage car trailing immediately behind the locomotive.
I don't believe that would be likely. You would need massive power to run the GG1 loco motors and then figure out how to splice into the engineer controls. There there's the question of how to supply the air for the brakes and control them through the braking lever in the loco. I guess anything can be done if you spend enough time and money to do it but the question becomes who would take on an engineering effort like this? At this point all electric locos are just museum pieces and most of them that were used on the massive electrified Milwaukee Road line were scrapped. If you enjoy traveling under the wires the Amtrak NE corridor is still fully electrified and some trolley museums still run electrics as the one at Steamtown does.
We chatted about this on the "Steam and Preservation" forum a few months back. PCB's, cracked frames, voltage and "where you gonna get a right of way?" were the biggest obstacles identified. Even if you use some kind of power car instead of line voltage you're still talking WAY beyond the reach of most museums or restoration societies to accomplish without a serious pile of cash.
I would guess it would cost in excess of two million dollars to put a GG-1 back in service. That would in a commercial shop, no volunteer labor. The only place I could see it running might be between Philadelphia and Harrisburg. If there were money available, the place to start is with Antrak to see if they were willing to host its operation. Then talk to GE in Erie and see if they would support the engineering effort. The only thing harder on a locomotive that running its wheels off is letting it sit out in the elements without moving for many years. Restoring a GG-1 to service would be a big task.
645 posted:Dennis LaGrua posted:At this point all electric locos are just museum pieces and most of them that were used on the massive electrified Milwaukee Road line were scrapped. If you enjoy traveling under the wires the Amtrak NE corridor is still fully electrified and some trolley museums still run electrics as the one at Steamtown does.A South Shore 800-class (same as Milwaukee Road 'Little Joe' electrics) still operates on occasion at the Illinois Railway Museum (IRM). it won't run like it did on the South Shore as IRM uses 600 volts DC while South Shore was 1,500 volts DC. Yes, it was modified to operate at the reduced voltage available at IRM.
I'm curious about just what "modifications" were done to the "Little Joe" in order for it to operate at the reduced voltage of 600 volts DC.
Running of a restored GG1 without motive power at the head end with a diesel pusher is doable. The GG1 will need compressed air for brakes, and some generators for lighting.
Bobby Ogage posted:Running of a restored GG1 without motive power at the head end with a diesel pusher is doable.
Really?
The GG1 will need compressed air for brakes, and some generators for lighting.
Hot Water posted:645 posted:Dennis LaGrua posted:At this point all electric locos are just museum pieces and most of them that were used on the massive electrified Milwaukee Road line were scrapped. If you enjoy traveling under the wires the Amtrak NE corridor is still fully electrified and some trolley museums still run electrics as the one at Steamtown does.A South Shore 800-class (same as Milwaukee Road 'Little Joe' electrics) still operates on occasion at the Illinois Railway Museum (IRM). it won't run like it did on the South Shore as IRM uses 600 volts DC while South Shore was 1,500 volts DC. Yes, it was modified to operate at the reduced voltage available at IRM.
I'm curious about just what "modifications" were done to the "Little Joe" in order for it to operate at the reduced voltage of 600 volts DC.
When the Joe arrived at IRM, they were able to test run it without modifications on 600VDC back and forth in front of the depot. The wire hangers there were totally above the wire so the pans wouldn't snag on them.
Rusty
Couldn't tell you. It's been about 20 years, since I was active at the old chooch farm and I spent most of my time in the Steam Department. But, I was active when both the Joe and GG1 arrived.
I can guess that IRM's been replacing the hangers to allow for pan operation on the main, but I don't know the progress. I know for a while, they would have to drop the pan and coast when going under the wire frogs. Might still have to, I don't think there's a wire frog that would allow for pan and pole operation.
Rusty
When changing a high voltage DC car or motor to run on 600 volt DC usually requires dealing with the air compressor and lights and control. In some cases IRM has been able to just change the compressor armatures from 1500 volt to 600 volt armatures. Lights and control were frequently designed to run on 600 volts, since this was already a standard, and uses a motor/generator or dynamotor to change the 1500 volts to 600 volts. In this case the lights and control circuits are just disconnected from the MG and reconnected directly to trolley. Later equipment ran lights and control on a lower voltage, usually in conjunction with batteries. In this case a replacement MG may be required. In a dual voltage car the traction motors and accelerating resistors would also be reconnected when the voltage was changed, but in museum service this is not necessary.
Unless there is a solution to the transformer PCB issue, it appears there will be no running a GG1. The rest of the issues appear to be solvable. I would rather see a diesel push a GG1 on an excursion train than no GG1 operation at all.
It is appalling how many of the saved GG1s are rusting hulks.
The PCB problem was solved by removing the transformers and flushing the locomotive.
The only way a GG1 will run again is if a group organizes, selects a candidate for restoration, has it inspected, finds someone who can do the necessary mechanical repairs, find someone who can engineer contemporary electronics to fit inside the carbody, find someone to intstall said electronics, test, retest, more inspections, find someplace to run it...
... AND gather the funds to do all of the above.
Easy-peasy, right?
Rusty
The fate of the gg1 has been sealed. You will never see one running under its own power and seeing one being pushed would be a sad event.
Go to a museum and look how they are, they were a magnificent machine for their time.
I saw many gg1's in their day running up and down the mainline of the Philly area under the majestic catenary of the mighty Pennsylvania railroad.
I would love to see a gg1 run again but only as they were not something risen from the dead like a Frankenstein monster.
Rip GG1, the greatest electric locomotive ever.
.... And then I recalled this SNL episode...
My dad used to see the GG1's on the PC in New Brunswick while he was still a firefighter. In the PC days he had the unfortunate task of helping supervise the clean up's of the bodies of jumpers from the train station. History aside, a GG1 will more than likely never run again. Costs combined with the fact of where to run it. Amtrak would be most likely unwilling to run one. The only way I can see it happening is putting new electronics into a GG1 body. Picture taking a postwar GG1 shell and putting it over a new chassis with new electronics. There's a better chance of the T1 being built than a GG1 ever operating again.
RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:My dad used to see the GG1's on the PC in New Brunswick while he was still a firefighter. In the PC days he had the unfortunate task of helping supervise the clean up's of the bodies of jumpers from the train station. History aside, a GG1 will more than likely never run again. Costs combined with the fact of where to run it. Amtrak would be most likely unwilling to run one. The only way I can see it happening is putting new electronics into a GG1 body. Picture taking a postwar GG1 shell and putting it over a new chassis with new electronics. There's a better chance of the T1 being built than a GG1 ever operating again.
What do you mean by jumpers?
Railfan Brody posted:RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:My dad used to see the GG1's on the PC in New Brunswick while he was still a firefighter. In the PC days he had the unfortunate task of helping supervise the clean up's of the bodies of jumpers from the train station. History aside, a GG1 will more than likely never run again. Costs combined with the fact of where to run it. Amtrak would be most likely unwilling to run one. The only way I can see it happening is putting new electronics into a GG1 body. Picture taking a postwar GG1 shell and putting it over a new chassis with new electronics. There's a better chance of the T1 being built than a GG1 ever operating again.
What do you mean by jumpers?
Obviously, people who JUMP onto the railroad tracks, from the elevated station platforms on the Northeast Corridor.
Hot Water posted:Railfan Brody posted:RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:My dad used to see the GG1's on the PC in New Brunswick while he was still a firefighter. In the PC days he had the unfortunate task of helping supervise the clean up's of the bodies of jumpers from the train station. History aside, a GG1 will more than likely never run again. Costs combined with the fact of where to run it. Amtrak would be most likely unwilling to run one. The only way I can see it happening is putting new electronics into a GG1 body. Picture taking a postwar GG1 shell and putting it over a new chassis with new electronics. There's a better chance of the T1 being built than a GG1 ever operating again.
What do you mean by jumpers?
Obviously, people who JUMP onto the railroad tracks, from the elevated station platforms on the Northeast Corridor.
Yes, sadly jumpers is a word that I use for suicide jumpers. It was very unfortunate. People occasionally jumped from the concrete bridge over the Raritan River but most of the incidents were on the tracks.
I think they were one step behind the Milwaukee Road GE box cabs for broken frames. Milwaukee welded and re-welded those frames and they were still falling apart in droves at the end. 
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It'd take only two things to make a G run again.
Lots of money and lots of connections.
If someone like a Warren Buffet or Bill Gates fantasized about a GG1 running as a kid there would be a GG1 running.
Probably not a perfect analogy since it's a relatively common diesel to an electric but it wasn't just 20 years or so that no one outside of the city of Philadelphia knew who Bennett Levin was... a little known head of a Philadelphia city agency who was apparently a train buff and just happened upon some rail-connected property in the Juniata section of the city. Well he had enough money and connections to not only acquire E units and other PRR equipment but to have them restored AND to run them on mainline trips on class I railroads. Yep, it's "only" an E unit but it's still no small feat for a private individual to not only get it up and running and inspected and insured for service but to convince a class I railroad to let it run.
What if a Bill Gates or a Warren Buffett wanted a symbol for their start-up privately held electric passenger railroad and they just decided to acquire a G and rebuild it to the standards necessary to operate under todays FRA standards. And what if they just happened to be using the same voltage/frequency as AMTRAK/the NEC?
Farfetched, but just think if someone else with deep pockets and a love for a classic status symbol decided they had to have one as their flagship locomotive and rebuilt it for the (near) triple digit speeds it was capable of.
TexasSP posted:Based on everything I have read about this, the closest you would probably get is a gg1-ish loco. Something someone would have to spend a large amount of money on that may use a GG1 Body and some other parts but little else. By possible of course I mean the most possible scenario while still being a fantasy for the most part.
Maybe Tyco was ahead of the game?
Tom
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I remember those Tyco GG nothings. What an oddity.
That's a head scratcher all right! 
I noted that the Milwaukee and the Lackawanna both used 1500 VDC overhead. It always occurred to me that it would have been interesting to see the Phoebe Snow arriving in Hoboken behind a Little Joe... or to ride across Montana on an "Edison" MU!
The Milwaukee Road used 3000 VDC (later 3300 VDC) in the overhead wire to power their locomotives. However, converted a 3000 VDC locomotive to run on 1500 VDC would probably not be a big problem. One issue in making this change is that for any given horse power, a 3000 volt locomotive will draw half as much current as a 1500 volt locomotive. Therefore, all the wire and contactors will not handle twice the current required when the voltage is cut in half. Most locomotives that are converted like this would end up with half the horsepower.
