It seems to me that the Santa Fe War Bonnet is arguably the most popular type of diesel locomotive for O Gauge enthusiasts. Some people pay an exorbitant amount of money for them.
What is the rationale for Lionel and the others not producing more of these if the demand is so high? In particular the Lionel cat whisker F3 model. Red and Yellow.
John
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Market saturation, for starters. Also, to paint that on modern engines would only be a "fantasy scheme". The closest you could get to present day warbonnets would be the BNSF "pumpkin" (orange and green).
As hobbyists become more interested in more prototypical models and prototypical modeling, having all sorts of paint schemes is not as desirable. And as more hobbyists realise that there were local railroads that they grew up with that are not Santa Fe, interest dimishes.
The PRR and NYC touched the hometown of many many more people than the Santa Fe which ran through a lot of less populated areas.
I am pretty sure it is the cool look of the war bonnet theme that attracts people.
Huh!? You've got to be kidding, right?
This is just from the first two pages of search results.
http://www.lionel.com/products...-diesel-8522-6-48185
http://www.lionel.com/products...esel-a-a-set-6-47998
http://www.lionel.com/products...-ac6000-9876-6-28339
http://www.lionel.com/products...c-diesel-440-6-82215
http://www.lionel.com/products...iesel-aa-set-6-81219
http://www.lionel.com/products...sels-164-161-6-82290
http://www.lionel.com/products...ed-train-set-2122140
http://www.lionel.com/products...sd70ace-1859-2133321
http://www.lionel.com/products...3-aa-22l-22c-6-85186
http://www.lionel.com/products...harks-aa-set-2133210
I agree that the market for red and yellow Santa Fe warbonnets is over-saturated. Lionel, K-Line and MTH have been doing them for decades.
As for Santa Fe diesels, I’m put out because there aren’t more “cat-whisker” or “cigar-band” F units or zebra-stripe or “book-end” road-switchers. There were a LOT more blue and yellow freight Fs than there were red and yellow warbonnets on Santa Fe rails. I’m not asking for massive runs, but cash-on-the-barelhead advance reservations sounds appropriate to me.
Yes, the red and yellow ones. Sure Lionel made them, but that is not what I am saying. If MORE were produced, Ebay cretins wouldn't be getting $600 - $700 for USED A-B (etc) units. Someone is paying that amount of money for used ones or they wouldn't ask. I have seen more than one O Gauge enthusiast video where they "finally" got a red and yellow F Unit set. Why wouldn't Lionel produced sufficient quantity to meet this demand? Would it not be profitable?
John
To each their own as the saying goes.
In my opinion, there is too much War Bonnet produced already as is. Other lines need to be offered, as is done in HO and N.
Part of the "huge" prices you are seeing at shopping locations might be because some collectors are trying to fill out their collections with models from certain years, models from certain manufacturers, models with (or without) certain electronics, and models with (or without) certain plating. Heck, there are even variations within each of those groups that might command higher prices from a collector. In our hobby, prices paid often do not equate to availability of product.
Chuck
Ring! Ring! The 1950's are calling and they want their Warbonnets back! 
Okay, just kidding!
I think in the 50's and 60's they were probably one of the most produced paint schemes. My third-hand AF set that I got in 1968 was an ABA set of Warbonnets (a freight set.)
I really had fun with that set, but when I got back in the hobby almost 20 years ago, I found many other liveries that meant more to me.
And as noted in a couple of the post above, there have been a LOT of Warbonnet models produced by many of the manufacturers. If the current inventory of new trains are low, it's because there is not much current demand for them. However, I think this is why its the greatest time, ever, to be into O gauge trains, as there is some much (new and used) on the market.
Jim
Craftech,
The market's gone crazy as a result of a flood of incomers and returners to the hobby due to the pandemic. People have had nothing to occupy their time and are turning to the hobby in droves, and driving up prices -- all prices, including War Bonnets.
I commented in another thread that I had bought several like-new, or even NOS, large and articulated PS1 steam in the $250 to 350 range three or four or years ago. They're now being listed for triple that, and it appears actually selling at those prices.
Now is the time to sell, before everything returns to "normal", or if you're a buyer wait for it to do so. It will take some patience for things to settle out however while we welcome the new and returning hobbyists.
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Craftech,
The market's gone crazy as a result of a flood of incomers and returners to the hobby due to the pandemic. People have had nothing to occupy their time and are turning to the hobby in droves, and driving up prices -- all prices, including War Bonnets.
I commented in another thread that I had bought several like-new, or even NOS, large and articulated PS1 steam in the $250 to 350 range three or four or years ago. They're now being listed for triple that, and it appears actually selling at those prices.
Now is the time to sell, before everything returns to "normal", or if you're a buyer wait for it to do so. It will take some patience for things to settle out however while we welcome the new and returning hobbyists.
Mike
Well, I guess I would be counted in that lot except that my 5 year old grandson who has been obsessed with trains since he was ONE would be a bigger reason.
Personally I would rather see hobby shops or even Lionel make the profit over ebay cretins. If the pandemic saw the profits rise of a few suppliers it saw the demise of others. Who exactly is getting rich selling O Gauge trains? I asked one vendor a few months ago (I forget which one) why they only made _____ for N Gauge and HO and they told me O Gauge was only 20% of the market.
I would personally rather see ANY model train supplier make a large profit rather than Banksters, Oil Companies, Hedge Fund Managers, Health Insurance Companies, or Big Pharma. Feel free to disagree.
John
@Craftech posted:It seems to me that the Santa Fe War Bonnet is arguably the most popular type of diesel locomotive for O Gauge enthusiasts. Some people pay an exorbitant amount of money for them.
What is the rationale for Lionel and the others not producing more of these if the demand is so high?
John
Offhand I'd say there are tons of them around. As others have stated, they're so plentiful that they're starting to do fantasy versions!
And then theres all the black bonnets! Even steamers:
I have had a slight fetish with warbonnets in the past. I’ve only seen k-line with an actual warbonnet emblem on the engine. I’m probably wrong, but I don’t necessarily call the Lionel engines I’ve seen warbonnets, but more of a flyer. If I don’t see the Indian head, it’s not a warbonnet to me.
A good point above:
"As hobbyists become more interested in more prototypical models and prototypical modeling, having all sorts of paint schemes is not as desirable. And as more hobbyists realise that there were local railroads that they grew up with that are not Santa Fe, interest diminishes."
As much as I like the ATSF - though when it comes to their motive power, I think steam, mostly - I only have one "Warbonnet" loco. It is an "old" MTH PS1 Alco DL109. The paint scheme has been done a whole lot, so plenty of used ones are around, as mentioned.
I have also heard complaints over the last several years that there have been too many NYC Hudsons produced, too. Now, that's just crazy talk.
@Craftech posted:It seems to me that the Santa Fe War Bonnet is arguably the most popular type of diesel locomotive for O Gauge enthusiasts. Some people pay an exorbitant amount of money for them.
What is the rationale for Lionel and the others not producing more of these if the demand is so high?
John
You aren't looking very hard. For starters 3rd Rail has done in the Warbonnet scheme:
K-line:
MTH:
Lionel:
Atlas:
Williams:
This is just a partial list going from memory. In short, there are tons on models that have been or will be produced in the Warbonnet scheme and they are plentiful in the market place.
On the production side if you can find a locomotive that the ATSF, PRR, and NYC operated, chances are extremely high that it has been, will be, or will be again produced.
@chinatrain99 posted:I have had a slight fetish with warbonnets in the past. I’ve only seen k-line with an actual warbonnet emblem on the engine. I’m probably wrong, but I don’t necessarily call the Lionel engines I’ve seen warbonnets, but more of a flyer. If I don’t see the Indian head, it’s not a warbonnet to me.
So, your saying Santa Fe's passenger FTA, F3A, F7A, E8m, U28CG, U30CG and FP45's weren't warbonnets because they didn't have the Chief on their flanks?
Rusty
War Bonnet refers to the Red and silver paint scheme it had nothing to do with the chief emblem on them. as for the yellow and black versions of that paint scheme they were done when Santa Fe and other roads had to hand over power to the newly formed Amtrak. it was done so nobody would associate those trains with the Santa Fe. some modern GE units were painted in the red and silver war bonnet scheme just before the merger with BN and some are still around though patched for BNSF. they have been over produced by model companies for years. the Blue and yellow cigar band and zebra trip units would make great looking locos in three rail if someone would produce them. Red and silver sells. the others don't.
I probably should amend my earlier post that although I am not a collector, I would love to have a set of Postwar Lionel Santa Fe War Bonnets, just because, to me, they represent the epitome of post war Lionel.
Jim
In my mind, if it has an Indian head it’s a warbonnet. Otherwise it’s a flyer.
@Rusty Traque posted:So, your saying Santa Fe's passenger FTA, F3A, F7A, E8m, U28CG, U30CG and FP45's weren't warbonnets because they didn't have the Chief on their flanks?
Rusty
Simply adding to this comment that the chief emblem was on the booster unit of all F and E units for the Warbonnet scheme with the exception of the modern GP60 boosters that had the modern large red letters instead.
Love them….
@chinatrain99 posted:In my mind, if it has an Indian head it’s a warbonnet. Otherwise it’s a flyer.
I, along with many other Santa Fe Modelers and enthusiasts will disagree...
Rusty
@Amfleet25124 posted:To each their own as the saying goes.
In my opinion, there is too much War Bonnet produced already as is. Other lines need to be offered, as is done in HO and N.
AGREED! Want A.T.S.F. then go cat whiskers or Blue bonnet or Blue Cigar to change it up!
@Craftech posted:Who exactly is getting rich selling O Gauge trains? I asked one vendor a few months ago (I forget which one) why they only made _____ for N Gauge and HO and they told me O Gauge was only 20% of the market.
Considering all the different scales today, 20% doesn’t seem all that small to me.
@rplst8 posted:Considering all the different scales today, 20% doesn’t seem all that small to me.
OK,
I went back and found it.
----------------------------------
"I recently wrote to Exact Rail about adding O Gauge to their line of detail parts, etc. and they answered my email explaining:
"Hi John, O scale was originally part of our company's initial market study over ten years ago, but since HO scale accounts for around 70% of the hobby, and N scale another 20%, and all other scales including O wrapped up into the final 10%, we couldn't justify the costs of tooling up molds for such a massive size in such intricate detail as our products are designed to have. That may change in the future but at this time it is not on our radar."
John
I still maintain that the red and yellow warbonnet is overproduced. I would be more interested in a yellow and blue “cigar band” or “cat whiskers” scheme. (Alas, I missed Lionel’s FT blue and yellow BTO offer). However, I do understand that the freight scheme is not popular and would require sufficient reservations and advanced deposits.
As for the fantasy gold-bonnet and black-bonnet schemes: different strokes, but I’m NOT interested. Nor am I interested in red letterboard or red window sash stuff lettered Santa Fe. Let someone else buy them: John Santa Fe didn’t have them.
@Mister_Lee posted:I still maintain that the red and yellow warbonnet is overproduced. I would be more interested in a yellow and blue “cigar band” or “cat whiskers” scheme. (Alas, I missed Lionel’s FT blue and yellow BTO offer). However, I do understand that the freight scheme is not popular and would require sufficient reservations and advanced deposits.
As for the fantasy gold-bonnet and black-bonnet schemes: different strokes, but I’m NOT interested. Nor am I interested in red letterboard or red window sash stuff lettered Santa Fe. Let someone else buy them: John Santa Fe didn’t have them.
The Gold Bonnet did exist briefly on PA1 53 for a GE Promotional train in 1960. A baggage car and 3 lounge cars with their trucks painted gold accompanied the 53.
Rusty
I don't know if they were over produced or if they are not totally prototypical........but it was a piece of great eye candy 🤓 for me when I unrapped my first plated Premier F7 Santa Fe.
Folks I just checked my list of ATSF diesels and I have some to add to the list
Weaver: SD40-2
MTH: SD40-2, SD70ACe, SD75M, GP60M, Dash8-40CW, Dash9 , Dash9CW
Atlas-O: GP60B and Dash8-40BW
There are alot of Warbonnets but we could always use more. VBG
Huh?
Sunset has their F3 warbonnets due in the next month or so and their E1s are entering the production phase. Unless you are just talking about Lionel.
I don't believe cat whiskers got sufficient reservations for either the F3s or the F7s from Sunset. But I've got their FTs. Lionel did the cat whiskers several years ago and were gone like lightening.
One of those thread titles where I thought..."I gotta see this."
Seriously? 
@rdunniii posted:Huh?
Sunset has their F3 warbonnets due in the next month or so and their E1s are entering the production phase. Unless you are just talking about Lionel.
I don't believe cat whiskers got sufficient reservations for either the F3s or the F7s from Sunset. But I've got their FTs. Lionel did the cat whiskers several years ago and were gone like lightening.
Yes Lionel. Cat whisker F3
[Title amended due to all the confusion]
John
@Craftech posted:It seems to me that the Santa Fe War Bonnet is arguably the most popular type of diesel locomotive for O Gauge enthusiasts. Some people pay an exorbitant amount of money for them.
What is the rationale for Lionel and the others not producing more of these if the demand is so high? In particular the Lionel cat whisker F3 model. Red and Yellow.
It's my understanding the that "cat whisker" paint scheme was blue and yellow. Could you link to a picture of what your talking about?
I'm familiar with the following Santa Fe paint schemes:
War Bonnet - classic red and yellow front with the stylized Zia Pueblo symbol on the front, with silver/gray/chrome rear
Blue Bonnet - similar, but the "bonnet" is yellow, and the body is blue
Cat whisker - no bonnet - blue and yellow (sometimes with a red stripe) Santa Fe cross logo on front with three lines (whiskers) on either side of the logo and running down the side of cab a bit in yellow
Black and White - Just black with white safety stripes and lettering, I think it's called Zebra sometimes?
Kodachrome - a "bonnet" paint scheme that is yellow and red with SF initials in preparation for the failed SF-SP merger.
2 things.
1. Why call eBay sellers "cretins"? If someone is willing to pay a high price, how does that make the seller a "cretin"?
2. Heck, even the early 1970s Atlas F9 (and maybe AHM Fairbanks Morse) were offered in the Warbonnet scheme...
Mark in Oregon
@rplst8 posted:It's my understanding the that "cat whisker" paint scheme was blue and yellow. Could you link to a picture of what your talking about?
The Santa Fe began phasing out the "cat whisker" scheme around 1951-1952.
I'm familiar with the following Santa Fe paint schemes:
War Bonnet - classic red and yellow front with the stylized Zia Pueblo symbol on the front, with silver/gray/chrome rear
Blue Bonnet - similar, but the "bonnet" is yellow, and the body is blueApplied to freight F's and Hood Units as they cycled through the paint shop. A few "passenger" F's received either a blue warbonnet or yellow warbonnet.
Cat whisker - no bonnet - blue and yellow (sometimes with a red stripe) Santa Fe cross logo on front with three lines (whiskers) on either side of the logo and running down the side of cab a bit in yellow
Black and White - Just black with white safety stripes and lettering, I think it's called Zebra sometimes?Actually black and "aluminum" which had a slight silver tinge to it. Referred to as the zebra stripe scheme. Hood units only. Last applied to the initial order of EMD SD24's and Alco RSD-12's. Replaced by the blue and yellow "bookend" or "pinstripe" scheme with the large Cooper font lettering.
Kodachrome - a "bonnet" paint scheme that is yellow and red with SF initials in preparation for the failed SF-SP merger.
The less said about the Kodachrome scheme the better...
Rusty
@Strummer posted:2 things.
1. Why call eBay sellers "cretins"? If someone is willing to pay a high price, how does that make the seller a "cretin"?
Agree. I just got a GREAT deal on an MTH articulated steamer, and I've probably gotten my best deals there, some from members of this very forum. I got a 3rd rail brass loco a few weeks back for a song and a dance. It needs a little TLC, but it's BRASS. And when I say a song and a dance - less than a new Lionel Diesel!
There are lots of scams on eBay too, don't get me wrong. But to be fair, there are also people with no patience or self control and will spend whatever price is asked if they "gotta have it now". I've been waiting for probably 4 years for what I wanted to come up in good condition used at a price I was willing to pay.
@Strummer posted:1. Why call eBay sellers "cretins"? If someone is willing to pay a high price, how does that make the seller a "cretin"?
Mark in Oregon
Seconded. I’ve sold on eBay and I’m trying to figure out how starting auctions at a buck and letting the market set the price makes me a ‘cretin’.
Everything is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Postwar Warbonnet F-3s in average condition go for around $300 a set, those that are Like New with their master cartons go for $1200. Supply and demand in action.
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