How to attract younger generation to York/ Saturday not worth it.

Just my opinion, but I feel the meet should only be two full days. Being retired I really don't care which days, but it would seem that Friday/Saturday would work well and give working people a fair shot.

Back in the early 80s I wasn't able to go on Friday and went on Saturday and did get some great deals on trains sellers were packing up to go home. I would be looking, and the seller would make the offer, but I still preferred Friday.

I've never been to York, but have seen a similar thing at other venues, with people packing up on Saturdays. Even with traffic. counts, especially in the summer with tourism: Thursday is the New Friday! It's a PIA in my opinion.

@steam posted:

I know there was rain coming but good grief, set up to sell at 9:00 and done not long after?  

You seem to think that the members set everything up Saturday morning just to start packing at 10:30 am.  The fact is that the members start setting up at 9 am Thursday morning and have to be ready for the show to open at Noon on Thursday  Many of the vendors in the dealers halls set up on Wednesday afternoon.  So nothing is actually set up on Saturday morning and if it took them hours to set up on Wednesday or Thursday and they have to be at the show until Saturday at 2 pm, it is likely going to take them time to pack up and few people want to spend a lot of time after the closing of the show to pack.

My experience in recent years is that there are few buyers attending the show on Saturday.  I understand that some people cannot come during the week, but it is also frustrating to sellers, many who have been in York for several days, to have such a sparse crowd on Saturday.

Personally, it took me 3.5 hours to walk though the Blue, Silver, Red, White, and Orange halls on Thursday.  I made one pass through all of the buildings and saw no reason to make a second pass.  I left the show, had a nice meal, and went back to my lodging, packed up Friday morning and left York.

My last experience of selling at the TCA Eastern Division York show, including the bandit meets, is that my sales declined each day from Monday through Saturday, with Saturday sales amounting to barely anything (c. $300).  So by the time Saturday rolls around, the sellers are tired and if they are faced with the prospect of few or no sales on Saturday, packing early is not too difficult of a decision to make.

Some history of the show, I first started attending c. spring 2004.  My very first show was the last show that was a Friday-Saturday show at the fairgrounds, with the next October show being the first Thursday-Saturday show.  The Eastern Division was set to change the show back to a Friday-Saturday show starting in April of 2020 and then the pandemic came along and canceled the April and October 2020 shows and the April 2021 show.  So when they were finally able to have a show in October 2021 they thought that there would be a "pent up demand" and they should revert to a Thursday through Saturday show.  It did not seem to me that there was enough of a "pent up demand" to warrant a 3 day show in October 2021 or after.  I recall the years of the past, where the crowds were so large that it was difficult to move through the buildings all day on the first day of the show.  However, those days are gone and I find now that after the first hour of the show on Thursday one can generally walk though the buildings very easily with no crowding. 

In recent years several of the manufacturers stopped coming to the show, citing the high costs of renting their spaces in the Orange Hall and the costs of lodging for their employees.  I can understand their decisions because their goal is to make a profit and they have to make sound business decisions. 

The bandit meets are not what they once were either, they are smaller and there are fewer of them.  I have been selling at the bandit meets for the past several years, but after last fall's disappointing crowds/sales that I decided to sell all of the stuff I had been carrying around for at least 2 to 3 years on ebay.  Sure it cost me the ebay fees, but at least I sold the stuff.  I feel I got a better return on my money by selling it on ebay, as I got the cash flow without having to spend time and money of going to a show and "trying" to sell stuff.

I am not affiliated with the Eastern Division or the York show, but from an outsider's prospective I feel they do need to change or they are going to start losing money on the show and eventually there will be no York show (which will likely happen eventually anyway due to declining membership as older members pass away).  I know the TTOS Cal-Stewart 2 day show in the Los Angeles area is no more, simply because of financial reasons.  I was at the very last Cal-Stewart show and it was dismal.  The show was open for members only on Saturday and then to the public on Sunday.  Saturday was so-so, as there were many members in attendance; however, Sunday was terrible and the public largely did not show up.  The show lost money for the TTOS group that put it on and they decided not to do that type of show again, largely due to declining attendance/revenue and increasing costs to put the show on.   

As for attracting the younger generation, that is an issue that the TCA in general needs to address, as opposed to just the Eastern Division York Show.  I am relatively young for a TCA member and am in my mid-50s.  I see few members that are my age or younger and most of the members I know are in their late 60s or older.  I don't have any suggestions to attracting younger members, but know that the younger generation does not typically have trains in their daily lives, as opposed to the older generations, which often rode trains in their youth or saw trains on a regular basis in daily life.  It seems now the only younger people who may have trains in their daily lives are those in big cities that have mass transit. 

The Greenberg Shows, especially in Edison, NJ, usually has a good amount of younger people. Not sure it they are really interested in the trains or if they are just there to check out the other toys for sale.

I do notice quite a few youngsters clostered around the layouts.

Yes, on Sunday afternoons, many vendors are looking to pack up and run, but that also leads to some very good discounts.

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

You seem to think that the members set everything up Saturday morning just to start packing at 10:30 am.  The fact is that the members start setting up at 9 am Thursday morning and have to be ready for the show to open at Noon on Thursday  Many of the vendors in the dealers halls set up on Wednesday afternoon.  So nothing is actually set up on Saturday morning and if it took them hours to set up on Wednesday or Thursday and they have to be at the show until Saturday at 2 pm, it is likely going to take them time to pack up and few people want to spend a lot of time after the closing of the show to pack.

NWL,

I hear ya, but ...

Every train show I've been to in the last 10 years, every single one and probably at least 60 of them at that, has closed down early on the last day; most mid-day.   I know this because my work situation won't let me get there any earlier than post-lunch.

I get it that people selling from tables are not retailing professionals but to take away time on a weekend day from people who are interested in joining the hobby and investing their precious time in it is simply to ignore them completely.  If you want the younger generation to be with us in the future, and you're committing to it by having a table, you need to be there for the duration of the event, period.

If you say that they're not coming in the afternoon then simply adjust the hours on the advertising to eliminate it.  I think what you'll find then is that subsequently no one will come in the morning either, so you can just eliminate the whole day.  Where does that leave you?  No way to reach the newbies.

To do anything less than be there for the advertised duration is to ignore them.  The excuse that the crowds are too light is a self-fulfilling prophesy.

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

... but know that the younger generation does not typically have trains in their daily lives, as opposed to the older generations, which often rode trains in their youth or saw trains on a regular basis in daily life.  It seems now the only younger people who may have trains in their daily lives are those in big cities that have mass transit.

See my comments up above, plus note that this has been true for at least 60 years and yet the hobby lives on and young people are in it even today.  If you're interested in trains you will see them.  They are not any more well hidden for most of us than they've always been.

If you stick with your vision here you're saying that this hobby will die, and probably soon.  However people have said this before, most prominently back in the 1960's for instance when the market for other toys exploded, yet it hasn't.  Why is that?

Mike

I hope I am not sounding negative towards TCA, just thought I would share a few thoughts on this post and another...  Just simply adding some ideas and my experience as I am 43 which seems to be the outcast at York.

I will say that this was my first year back to York in about 10 years.  What kept me away was often I would have only been able to make it to one meet for one day.  Every year I decided paying 70.00 or so wasn't worth it to me personally and I just did the public buildings 1 or 2 times in that time frame.  For me, the historical aspects aren't something I will use.  I am mainly an operator with kids who just like to play and looking for the biggest bang for the buck expanding our layout!

One thing that keeps parents from buying for young kids? The safety warning on the box. 14 YEARS AND OLDER.

Gunny

@gunny posted:

One thing that keeps parents from buying for young kids? The safety warning on the box. 14 YEARS AND OLDER.

Gunny

Gunny,

You're absolutely correct, but ...

     There are plenty of kids between 14 and 55.

Mike

I think the point that Gunny made regarding the "Age 14..." is not to be dismissed. This is the "suit me" age, after all. At age 14, I was baling hay with my even younger brothers. By age 16, I was chopping corn until midnight. Yes, times are different, but you have to admit we have now have a country full of kids raising kids, in a broad sense. They are not even allowed to run lawn mower to make a few bucks.

More to the point of our hobby, I have said more than once on this forum that the locomotives of my youth (collectively, most TCA folks) are not the locomotives of my grandson's youth. They are 11.  They could give a hoot about Central Vermont or Boston & Maine, for example, but they light up when they see that I own and they can run the same Guilford (now CSX or PAS) locomotives in my home that they see plying the rails in their seacoast New Hampsire town. There's a "wow" factor in having relevance to their times. Not mine!

Steam will obviously always be steam, and will continue to delight for throughout the ages,  but as for the rest, I think a degree of doom for the younger set is being fostered but what us old geezers are putting in front of them. Sorry if this sounds like a rant....

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

You seem to think that the members set everything up Saturday morning just to start packing at 10:30 am.  The fact is that the members start setting up at 9 am Thursday morning and have to be ready for the show to open at Noon on Thursday  Many of the vendors in the dealers halls set up on Wednesday afternoon.  So nothing is actually set up on Saturday morning and if it took them hours to set up on Wednesday or Thursday and they have to be at the show until Saturday at 2 pm, it is likely going to take them time to pack up and few people want to spend a lot of time after the closing of the show to pack.

My experience in recent years is that there are few buyers attending the show on Saturday.  I understand that some people cannot come during the week, but it is also frustrating to sellers, many who have been in York for several days, to have such a sparse crowd on Saturday.

Personally, it took me 3.5 hours to walk though the Blue, Silver, Red, White, and Orange halls on Thursday.  I made one pass through all of the buildings and saw no reason to make a second pass.  I left the show, had a nice meal, and went back to my lodging, packed up Friday morning and left York.

My last experience of selling at the TCA Eastern Division York show, including the bandit meets, is that my sales declined each day from Monday through Saturday, with Saturday sales amounting to barely anything (c. $300).  So by the time Saturday rolls around, the sellers are tired and if they are faced with the prospect of few or no sales on Saturday, packing early is not too difficult of a decision to make.

Some history of the show, I first started attending c. spring 2004.  My very first show was the last show that was a Friday-Saturday show at the fairgrounds, with the next October show being the first Thursday-Saturday show.  The Eastern Division was set to change the show back to a Friday-Saturday show starting in April of 2020 and then the pandemic came along and canceled the April and October 2020 shows and the April 2021 show.  So when they were finally able to have a show in October 2021 they thought that there would be a "pent up demand" and they should revert to a Thursday through Saturday show.  It did not seem to me that there was enough of a "pent up demand" to warrant a 3 day show in October 2021 or after.  I recall the years of the past, where the crowds were so large that it was difficult to move through the buildings all day on the first day of the show.  However, those days are gone and I find now that after the first hour of the show on Thursday one can generally walk though the buildings very easily with no crowding.

In recent years several of the manufacturers stopped coming to the show, citing the high costs of renting their spaces in the Orange Hall and the costs of lodging for their employees.  I can understand their decisions because their goal is to make a profit and they have to make sound business decisions.

The bandit meets are not what they once were either, they are smaller and there are fewer of them.  I have been selling at the bandit meets for the past several years, but after last fall's disappointing crowds/sales that I decided to sell all of the stuff I had been carrying around for at least 2 to 3 years on ebay.  Sure it cost me the ebay fees, but at least I sold the stuff.  I feel I got a better return on my money by selling it on ebay, as I got the cash flow without having to spend time and money of going to a show and "trying" to sell stuff.

I am not affiliated with the Eastern Division or the York show, but from an outsider's prospective I feel they do need to change or they are going to start losing money on the show and eventually there will be no York show (which will likely happen eventually anyway due to declining membership as older members pass away).  I know the TTOS Cal-Stewart 2 day show in the Los Angeles area is no more, simply because of financial reasons.  I was at the very last Cal-Stewart show and it was dismal.  The show was open for members only on Saturday and then to the public on Sunday.  Saturday was so-so, as there were many members in attendance; however, Sunday was terrible and the public largely did not show up.  The show lost money for the TTOS group that put it on and they decided not to do that type of show again, largely due to declining attendance/revenue and increasing costs to put the show on.   

As for attracting the younger generation, that is an issue that the TCA in general needs to address, as opposed to just the Eastern Division York Show.  I am relatively young for a TCA member and am in my mid-50s.  I see few members that are my age or younger and most of the members I know are in their late 60s or older.  I don't have any suggestions to attracting younger members, but know that the younger generation does not typically have trains in their daily lives, as opposed to the older generations, which often rode trains in their youth or saw trains on a regular basis in daily life.  It seems now the only younger people who may have trains in their daily lives are those in big cities that have mass transit.

Two things are keeping me from going. Having the show start on a week day keeps kids and younger adults away. I don’t feel like using a vacation day for a show that should be on a weekend. Also, just charge admission. I’m not joining to be able to go to a show. Plus , I’d want to go with someone, so I’d have to buy 2 memberships. It is an antiquated model.

Are we saying that the future of the hobby is in grave jeopardy because of a safety warning for those younger than 14?

First, there are contradictions aplenty, so it's not totally clear:

And second, doesn't the warning in most cases also say "unless adult supervision is present"?

Mike

You don't attract the kids, you attract their parents.  Parents work but want to do things on the weekends with their kids.  One sure thing most younger set kids like to do is watch model trains.  Even better if they can operate them.  Parents might actually purchase a train for their child and if they already have trains something to expand their train empire.  So .....

1) The entire train show needs to be open to the public on weekends, two full days

2) The show needs lots of Hi-Tech layouts for the kids to watch and operate.  The show has to capture the audience like the  video game competition.

3) Admission needs to be modestly priced

4) Advertisement is needed to inform the public

5) The show location needs easy access, parking and not too far from large parent population centers

6) Starter education on easy setup in small spaces and it's affordable

6) Follow-up post show, like a kids club with outreach for those who need help

A lot of different opinions here.  I have planned for 15 years to go to York but have yet to make it.  In WI where I am from we have very few shows and the crowds are not what they use to be.  The show in Milw seems to be well attended but the cost to get in keeps going up.  I know the places that these shows are in keep jacking the prices so in turn admission fees go up.  A lot of parents don’t think about doing things with their kids but I know that the interest is there. I have kids out to my house and the kids show interest but parents just blow it off.  I think sometimes that we have a little to do with it.  I’m 77 and I know I have trouble relating to kids when they ask questions.  I have been at shows where almost all the guys running the modular setups just sit and visit with each other rather than taking time to maybe explain or show younger want to be model railroaders how things work or how technical things can be.  I always tell people that ask me that it is the “Greatest Hobby ever”.  It teaches more that we imagine.  Ask my son, he is half my age, started at 4 or 5 years old and is still very deep into.  Hard to talk to these young ones, but if we want to help the hobby go forward, take them to shows, find hobby stores and take them there, and be patient, and have fun.  It is a great hobby, and may even help to keep kids off the streets.

What everyone forgets is that the TCA will not die as long as there are two members. It started with a group of train guys in a Pennsylvania barn and grew from there. It was never intended to be a public event. It turned into one once people found out about it and grew into an event that hobby shops attended to sell their trains. If those vendors and/ or importers decide not to attend, all TCA Meets will continue on as they were originally intended. Everyone and every organization is free to start their own show if they desire.

Here’s the thing. It’s not for the TCA or any other model train organization to push or attract people into the hobby. They want to attract people into their organization. They try to grow the hobby but it’s not their wheelhouse.  The importers aren’t trying to bring people into the hobby, or else they’d be advertising in every venue. TV, radio, newspapers and national publications. No, their incentive is to get people to buy their products whether they get involved in the hobby or not.

The onus is on US to get everybody and anybody of all ages interested in the model train hobby. We need to stop expecting someone else to do it and then complain when involvement is low.

The TCA and other model train organizations are for those already committed or at least interested in attending shows and buying and running trains because of our efforts, the efforts of organization members and non-members to stir interest in the hobby. It’s the end result of generating interest. Train organizations are not the starting point.

THEN these new people at some point will be buying trains from the stores and importers and attending the shows.  

Start them young

Eric -- It's a great time in your life when your kids love the trains.   My kids were not interested in trains but my Grandkids were/are.  The youngest interest is still high but the others are now older and have moved on.  As for myself, I always liked trains. There was a lapse for 10-20 years with other life priorities but I returned in he 80's.

I think I've got my 18 month old grandson hooked. Whenever he comes over he goes running to the train room shouting choo-choos, choo-choos. He can handle a Lionchief Thomas pretty well.

Ken

@Traindiesel posted:

We need to stop expecting someone else to do it and then complain when involvement is low.

Exactly.  Spot-on.  Nail on the head.

Attracting younger people into the hobby is our responsibility collectively as hobbyists, and companies, organizations, and events like Lionel, TCA and York can have a role to play in helping us promote the hobby, but the responsibility still remains ours.  Being a member of a club, be it TCA, LCCA, LOTS, or a modular club, or having publicized public open houses for people to come view a private layout is pretty much the bare minimum a single person can do to help in this effort.

Being in a modular club has shown me that there is a lot of interest from kids in the hobby.  At this point, parental involvement is a must to allow the kids' interest to be maintained or to grow.  This is where a company like Lionel could help plant the seeds.  JLC himself was hailed as a marketing genius when he promoted the practice of putting a train around the Christmas Tree.  I'm sure that influenced my grandfather to buy his first set, as he always had trains around the tree since the late 1930's, and this passed down through my father to me (and I still have my grandfather's, father's, and my own childhood sets).  If Lionel would target some of its advertising to reinvigorating, re-starting, or reviving this tradition, they would be planting the seeds and making it easier for parents to  allow their kids to maintain an interest, and it would sell more product.

As for young adults, just look at the YouTube Meet and Greet at York.  This is an area where the hobby is really growing.  These guys are probably the biggest promoters of the hobby out there right now.  And working with them can have an even bigger impact -- look at the METCA promotion with Chris’s Trains and Things as one example.  Social media is another big avenue for promoting our hobby, and is probably the easiest for individuals to take an active role in promoting the hobby.

So what can the TCA do?  A limited-time (6-10 months or so) membership drive using promo codes to give new members a discount on the first year (and maybe a slightly smaller discount to entice former members to come back), would provide a boost to membership and also give them feedback on where their advertising is being most effective.  The most cost/labor-intensive part of this would be adjusting the web site and computer systems to accommodate the promo codes, and most, if not all, POS software already has this capability.  It would only then require a little bit of planning from the advertising people, and would be in place for future promotions (not just membership drives).

As far as York is concerned, some targeted advertising and growing their social media presence is EDTCA's best bet.  I understand the desire people have for York to conform more to their schedules, but I like York as it is now.  It has to work for the dealers and table-holders as much, if not more than the attendees.  EDTCA does a wonderful job doing this twice a year, and I doubt their critics could do a better job.  York's primary purpose is to support EDTCA, the museum and the TCA and its membership.  There are plenty of public shows out there -- Greenberg/GTS/GMTS/WGH, Allentown, Big E, Timonium, just to mention a few -- and some of them attract more attendees, but of those that do, I wonder how many of those extra attendees actually buy anything?  Or travel hundreds or even thousands of miles to attend?  York has long been described as the TCA's best recruiting tool, and it would be incredibly foolish of them to change in ways that would harm the TCA.

Personally, I am trying to do my part by maintaining my membership in the TCA, promoting the hobby by engaging with the public at my very active modular club's setups, running (along with a few others) my club's FB presence, posting videos to my YouTube channel, and engaging with other train fans when I find them.  This York, I also renewed my membership with LCCA which I had let lapse during covid, and plan to do the same with LOTS.

Andy