Why didn't LIONEL market their product hieracry more clearly in the past?

They just didn't do that back then. Even during the postwar period, your high doller Santa F3 passenger set had the same set box design as the lowly 0-27 starter sets.  Only what was inside that box made the differance, along with what dad was able to afford to spend.  The LTI era is, to me atleast, when we started to see a major shift away from constant reissues of postwar/MPC designs and models and into more high end models and different prototypes.  F units that were not from the postwar tooling ect.    Mike

Lionel "caught on" a long time ago, I'd say. And the "same orange and blue box" was - is - part of the appeal. It had a number on it. We could read and write. It has never been a problem. Just look.

And how is this different from all the "same" purple, yellow, black, black-and-yellow found elsewhere?

D500 posted:

Lionel "caught on" a long time ago, I'd say. And the "same orange and blue box" was - is - part of the appeal. It had a number on it. We could read and write. It has never been a problem. Just look.

And how is this different from all the "same" purple, yellow, black, black-and-yellow found elsewhere?

Exactly...it's not hard to tell RailKing from the better MTH products. Lionel had no such distinction...until recently.

Actually, they did. From the mid-70s to sometime in the 90s, Lionel packaged their lower-end items in a white box with pictures of other Lionel products on the back and sides. At first the pictures were printed in color. Later, they switched to black and white, which was better looking in my opinion. Coming after the ill-fated attempt to move production to Mexico, the black and white box prominently displayed the legend "Made in America!"

During this time the higher end stuff was packaged in more subdued, solid-color boxes. During most of the 70s, the boxes were red (though red boxes were sometimes used for lower end products, too.) The orange box was re-introduced in the 80s for the more expensive trains.

The principle was the same in the sets. The mass market sets were in boxes covered with pictures, either generic photos of Lionel trains, or an oil painting of the set contained in the box, in a dramatic railroad scene. By contrast, the top of the line Limited Edition sets were packed in a classy looking, solid color box, with no cellophane windows, which displayed a herald. The herald was unique for each set. Inside, each item was in an individual box - at first these inner boxes were gold, but sometime later they switched to orange.

The picture boxes definitely appealed to kids (having been a kid at the time, I can testify!) and the more muted solid boxes conveyed a sense of class to the adults.

I don't actually know when the orange box became so ubiquitous that the distinction was lost. I suppose sometime after Lionel became Lionel, LLC. Mid-90s marketing rode the nostalgia, hard.

nickaix posted:

Lionel packaged their lower-end items in a white box with pictures of other Lionel products on the back and sides. the pictures were printed in color. Later, they switched to black and white

higher end stuff was packaged in more subdued, solid-color boxes.  boxes were red (though red boxes were sometimes used for lower end products, too.) The orange box was re-introduced

Limited Edition sets were packed in a classy looking, solid color box, with no cellophane windows, which displayed a herald. The herald was unique for each set. at first these inner boxes were gold, but sometime later they switched to orange.

IMO, Lionel packaging and catalog number assignment is totally confusing. No confusion with the purple one; 20- is Premier and 30- is Rail King. Rail King may or not be scale, but Premier is always 1:48 scale.

"Why didn't Lionel market their product hierarchy more clearly in the past?"  You mean they do now?

Adding to what NICKAIX wrote, Lionel distinguished products in "Traditional" and "Collector" catalogs from 1982-1986, the forerunners of today's "Ready To Run" and "Signature Edition" catalogs.  Merchandise was differentiated within the same catalogs in the interim with "Collector" versus "Traditional" sections or series, "Premium" sections or series,  "Heritage" and "Classic" catalogs, and of course, "O27" versus "Standard O".   Then there's the matter that what originally was considered high end merchandise later may be deemed run of the mill as merchandise offerings progressed in form and function. Inconsistency may be confusing on the surface but Lionel faithful, armed with their catalogs, recognize the hierarchy within a specific time period.

Hmmm, prewar small 027 stuff was 2600 series, larger O tin was 2800 series, semis scale was 2700 series and the full scale was 700 series....  After ww II they distinguished  027 steam with four digit numbers, and 0 with three digits, same with diesels.   In the 70's they did the same thing under MPC for example, their then "scale" boxcars and stuff were numbered in the 9800 series while the old traditional cars were 9700 series.  In the late 80's and 90's  they began to jump around when they started reissuing older car numbers and road names.  I agree it did get confusing.    Isn't that all part of the fun?  Its the same with old cars, knowledge and experience is worth something. 

I agree, the Lionel method has been inconsistent and confusing, lot's of hands in the pie with their own influence, good or bad.  I see Lionel products all the time I would like to buy on the used market, but many times have difficulty distinguishing scale or non-scale sized.

The MTH method is simple for sure.  Atlas real easy since as far as I know it has always been scale.

nickaix posted:

I don't actually know when the orange box became so ubiquitous that the distinction was lost. I suppose sometime after Lionel became Lionel, LLC. Mid-90s marketing rode the nostalgia, hard.

I think you're correct - and more confusing from the aftermarket perspective.

But I would back the timeline back to 1983 - My 83 NYC F3s are in very contemporary orange and blue boxes - same with the passenger set - but with celo-windows - and those operate like shirt boxes - no flaps - box/packing and lid...not as ubiquitous then - but mixes in pretty easy today in the aftermarket among the LLC stuff.

The market was not so clearly segmented back in the postwar years.  Lionel marketed the very economical "Scout" (similar to postwar Marx or modern era Industrial Rail), then there were the "reasonably priced" 027 sets (with low profile track that had 27" diameter curves) and the top-of-the-line O gauge (high profile track with 31" diameter curves).  But scale and the size of the models intermixed freely within these distinctions except that Scout sets had consistently smaller (possibly S-scale) size bodies.  For example, O gauge had scale size EMD F-3 diesels, semi-scale Alco FA's and greatly shortened GG1's.  I believe the oversize GE 44-tonners were usually found in 027.  And many locomotives, like the Alco FA's could be found in both 027 and O.  Many of the same cars were used across both lines with different paint schemes/decoration, although some, like the aluminum passenger cars, were restricted to only O gauge sets.

I think what we see today is based on that heritage, although Lionel is doing more to differentiate their products now with Lion Scale, Vision Line, and the like.  However, they still have both scale and semi-scale offerings within their lines like LionChief and so a little product research may be necessary if you want things that are strictly scale models.  As far as I can tell, Lion Scale is their only line that is specifically limited to only 1/48 scale model products.    

There a few real earth shaking Lionel moments I remember in my life. The 8950 Virginian FM in the 1979 catalog started it all. The 783 Hudson on the cover of another catalog. The MPC exact copy of the operation saw mill and news stand, as well as O22 remote switches all were in "new" orange/blue boxes. Maybe there was something else before these, but I remember these came on the scene at the same time and seemed special and there was an excitement when they came out, mainly because of the box colors they came in. No more Tyco-like MPC boxes with cheesy pictures printed on the boxes. Everyone in my world at the time knew real trains came in orange and blue. Does anyone remember how hot the then-new 5712 Lionel orange/blue woodside reefer was when it came out? The price shot up to hundreds of dollars almost over night. They hit a grand slam by accident, then bunted when Lionel got the boxes right, but who knew what that SD28 even was in orange and blue the next year. Lionel didn't know how to keep a good thing going. I'll go further and always thought the PWC series should've been thought of in the 80's or 90's at the latest. Lionel had a customer base that was buying one and more of every item they made, but IMO didn't know how to keep those customers, and then lost them. IMO again, Lionel threw away the last of its mystique when King Richard looted then sold off the archives, and gutted the factory in MI. Now they're just an importer with boxes of orange/blue with preorders and QC issues.

My 2 cents says it comes down to marketing.  People that are looking for the higher end product know what numbers to look for and what products are top quality.  On the other hand, the 'general public' sees blue and orange, and associates that with a quality product, no matter what is in the box.  Using the same box "tricks" the less knowledgable buyers into thinking they are buying a better product.  It's marketing wank 101.  

JGL

Ah, yes, looking for numbers in the fine print down at waist level in the sea of indistinguishable "do not touch" boxes in the hallowed halls of York. Since l am not prostrated on the alter of one brand, l don't give diddley-squat what the number is, as l am looking for the road name (ideally in big block letters on the box...yeah, wishful thinking), that is of interest to me. Well, if the mfr. doesn't make it easy to identify, it's not easy to sell...and they reload those boxes and take them home again...

In my opinion, distinguishing Lionel products from one line to another in the modern era started back in the early 80's, and it actually got better well into the mid 90's.

All the less expensive, traditional line equipment was packaged in a plain white - and rather flimsy - box in the MPC era, but during the Dick Kughn era they were packaged in much more attractive - and more sturdy - black and white boxes with sharp graphics. In fact, ALL of the product lines - Traditional, Collector, American Flyer, Large Scale, Classics, and RailScope - Lionel was making by 1990 had their own unique boxes to tell each apart.

My research shows that this stopped around 1993, when Lionel was putting more emphasis on improving the quality of its lower-end products and making trains for running rather than investing, but at the same time blurred the line between 'traditional' and 'collector' products.

All of the collector line equipment from steam locomotives to accessories starting in 1982 were packaged in retro orange and blue with the postwar style Lionel logo on the back. At least back then, since Lionel wasn't putting as much variety in its products - such as only one roadname for a Mikado in 1992 - it was easy to identify the numbering of a certain product. Like how all the high end steam engines were in 18000-series numbering. Now, it's much harder to check which engine is from which product line since they had to start a whole new numbering system in the 80000-series.

Lionscale, Standard O, Postwar Scale, Conventional Classics, Vision Line, Joshua Lawrence Cowen, ad infinitum.

I never understood what Postwar Scale was ???

Vision Line Hudson? Not the the most detailed Hudson? OK . . . a remake of the classic 5344 . . . marketing . . . . Ummmm?

Vision Line GG-1's called "Steam Locomotive" on the box . . . 

The explanation to me is the constantly changing CEO's and marketing people at Lionel. Each new person has a different perspective and some of those people are not train folks. They are businesspeople who come from diverse backgrounds. Trains are an afterthought to them and a new "gimmick" to market trains is the latest "catnip" for those of us who are eager fort something new.

Did I mention Postwar Scale was very confusing? I still don't know what it was supposed to be. 

Postwar Scale were current (at the time) scale items, painted/decorated in postwar inspired schemes. Think postwar Santa Fe Warbonnet scheme on a scale F3. The other popular application were the scale PS boxcars, painted in 6464 postwar paint schemes.

Charlie

The way I see it, Lionel is a toy train company that evolved to include scale models in its product lines.  I don't think it occurred to them at the time to separate the lines in a more distinct fashion, beyond the "Standard O" designation on the early boxes.  It can be a real pain to have to wade through a pile of orange boxes looking for the scale stuff (and a lot of Standard O items were NOT marked as such on the boxes or labels).  Still, a reasonably-educated consumer can find what they are looking for with all of the resources out there (price guides, catalogs, web sites, etc.), and the hunt can sometimes be part of the fun.

MTH, on the other hand, started as a model train company, and was able to "do it right" from the start in terms of differentiating its product lines, both with the box colors and the SKU numbering system.

I don't hold it against Lionel in any way.  It is what it is.  And I do enjoy the hunt when I am hunting a scale needle in a traditional haystack.

Andy

Sam Jumper posted:

There a few real earth shaking Lionel moments I remember in my life. The 8950 Virginian FM in the 1979 catalog started it all.  .... Maybe there was something else before these, but I remember these came on the scene at the same time and seemed special and there was an excitement when they came out, mainly because of the box colors they came in.  ....

For many folks, the real excitement came with the fact that these items were simply gonna be AVAILABLE again after a decade+ of folks looking for rare postwar versions and paying big $$$ for them.  The floodgates had finally opened, and folks purchased accordingly -- thinking they needed to get an item before it was gone again.  What we didn't realize was the fact that the floodgates would remain open for the next 35+ years. And aside from enthusiasts starting to finally feel gorged in recent years, there's still no indication that those floodgates are gonna close anytime soon!  

David

Charlie posted:

... The other popular application were the scale PS boxcars, painted in 6464 postwar paint schemes.

...

I thought Lionel started the 6464 PS-1 boxcar series, but then never followed through with it after 4 boxcars (two issues of 2-packs in the course of a couple of years).  Did I miss something along the way?

David

What is a hieracry ?

Oman posted:

IMO, Lionel packaging and catalog number assignment is totally confusing. No confusion with the purple one; 20- is Premier and 30- is Rail King. Rail King may or not be scale, but Premier is always 1:48 scale.

I think MTH made a big mistake by not differentiating subsequent product advancements such as the same xx-xxxx-1 suffix for proto-sound 1, 2 and 3.  Add to that the xx-xxxx-0 could stand for non-powered or loco sound.  Same goes for the numerous DCS TIU generations.  Each have the same product number, but are significantly different (Serial ver1, Serial ver2, USB).  Yes, there might be a sticker on the bottom of the unit, but sometimes that is not able to be seen or could be missing or altered.  Aside from the MTH Premier/Railking prefix, I would say that the overall numbering system used by either Lionel or MTH (and K-Line) can be confusing.  Is there or is there not a key to the product numbering used or is it just sequential?

 Keystone, It may not make sense at a glance for MTH numbering. Your example of identifying proto 1, 2, and 3 wouldn't tell the whole story anyways. There are three different versions of Proto 2 that I know of... 5 volt, 3 volt 1 meg, and 3 volt 2 meg boards. It may not matter to some, but that is huge to me. What's in the engines is labeled right on the box near the part numbers anyways. You don't see the part number on the engine!

 The earliest stuff didn't use the same numbering system and had the MTH/QSI sound boards inside that led to proto 1 I believe. 

 The modern prefixes are as posted above by Oman. Like 10=tinplate, 20= premier, 30 RK, (40,50,60,track and power stuff) 70=G, 80&81= HO

The suffixes (for engines ) are -0,1,2,3,4,5 that I know of.

-0 is Loco-sound as you suggest. Powered but not command. Just bell and whistle. 

-1 is hi rail.

-2 is scale wheeled

-3 is dummy

-4 is certain trailing units sold separately?

-5 is  for Marklin AC only in HO?

4 & 5 I'm not sure of because I've never bought them.

You can judge what's in MTH fairly close by the year it was made. The part numbers for 5volt PS3 are usually low and made starting somewhere around 2000?. I believe (around) 2003 was a split year where proto 2 3 volt was introduced.

 Barry B, and Marty F. did a post of the years for PS2 2meg releases and all of this.

The latest PS3's are usually in numbers with an extra middle digit. Made after maybe 2012 or 2013 ...14?

Joe, your right the x-1 suffix also does not differentiate between the possible PS2 voltages which can affect value.   You also can not rely 100% on the item's print or online catalog because MTH did some post-print upgrades from the original description during each of the PS transitions.

As for the now seen middle 5 digits in the new PS3; it seems to be a good/quick telltale of PS3.  I guessed that MTH just ran out of 4 digit options.  I also forgot to mention their 10 or 11 tinplate prefix which can be found on both Standard and O gauge tinplate products.  Going forward, I wish MTH would find it in their mind and budget (I don't think it costs any more to print an additional identification number or letter ) to better identify their products and related advancements.

When I moved from HO to O 3r in early 1990's it was a steep learning curve when it came to scale vs traditional rolling stock....even today it can be tough. I just got a Lionel Gondola off ebay that I would pass on normally but seller said it was scale. It was cheap so I took a chance.....It ended up being a very nice scale car that looks like it was cloned off the old AHM Rivarossi tooling. Now I look for these......but they look very much like the small semi scale gondolas.....confusing.