Why Don't Builders Choose 2-rail Scale?

Maybe the club members & modelers didn't have the big bucks to afford all those fantastic SCALE pieces of rolling stock & locomotives in O Scale, especially the passenger equipment.

there is way more equipment available in ho.  where are you going to get 1:48 carsfor your scenery streets?

"I am wondering why people choose to build in HO when they have more than enough space for a O scale layout"

  It might just be the type of layout they want to build. A smaller scale allows less compression of scenes so yards, industries, mountains, trees, etc. can be made more to scale size. ....DaveB

I don't know for sure, but it might be cost; HO scale is much less in terms of cost and less space is required, not in the case of this layout. Whats the cost of a scale Lionel Big Boy? $1700. In HO scale a sound and DCC big Boy is maybe $450-500 dollars new.

There was an essay many years ago in the NMRA Bulletin about the costs of various scales.    The bottom line was that the proposed that the costs are not that much different from scale to scale.    His theory was that the model railroaders filled up the space they had, regardless of scale.   So if they built in HO, they would end up with twice as much or more track and equipment than if they built in O.    And the same relatively for N, the smaller the scale the more stuff the modeler buys, so in the end, he spends about the same money.  

I think it is a pretty good theory too.   For example around here, we have 2 large HO home layouts, both owners have hundreds of locomotives and thousands of cars, many custom painted.    Their basements are as bigger or bigger than mine so they have space for O scale if they had wanted it.

I don't think cost is the deciding factor, I think familiarity has much more to do with it.   I meet guys in HO all the time who are totally surprised that 2 rail O scale even exists.    The thing they know is Lionel 3 rail when they here O mentioned.    And there are many many of them in this area.    The local hobby shops only carry N, HO, and Lionel and MTH sometimes.    So they never see O scale and they have never seen it.   

Hot Water:

Maybe the club members & modelers didn't have the big bucks to afford all those fantastic SCALE pieces of rolling stock & locomotives in O Scale, especially the passenger equipment.

I take your point, but I think that's too easy. A club could follow the example of the O scale folks at the San Diego model railroad museum and run MTH 3/2 diesels, to start (bob2 says the China drives last forever). The locos and rolling stock don't need to be Rich Yoder/Kohs quality-the 3-foot rule should be good enough, from whence, e.g., we can get from eBay Walthers built-up passenger cars for a hundred bucks a pop or less. For steam older Lionel & MTH PS-1 can be 2-railed. etc.

Didn't say it would be easy.

Opinion!

Maybe the club's members like to run their own equipment on the layout, and I'm pretty sure most of them will have HO home layouts.  I'm thinking that if they are invested in HO, why would they build a club O scale layout?  Just my thought on this.

Hi Joe:

“Seeing beautiful O scale layouts would go a long way to promoting the larger scales and hobby”.

     "Any thoughts about this"? Yes, check out this video, from my YT Channel.

Published March 9th, 2015 - A public video.

Agreed.  

I hear that-I have to take a deep breath each time I buy a set of K-Line 21" cars.  And, as we know, some of the manufacturers are much more.  Try a set of Wasatch passenger cars-those will give you some serious sticker shock!  But, I'm addicted and will keep buying them.

In this situation, I don't believe cost is the factor.  HO simply has better equipment choices and models available.  

Also, not mentioned is the overall presentation the modelers are attempting to capture. They did a fantastic job of recreating the American Southwest in miniature! 

I think some of it is space,that for a given space you can do a lot more with HO than O. I think the biggest part is availability, with HO for every product in O, there are probably 20 in HO. If you want to find specific roadnames, given the size of the HO market lot more likely equipment will be made for that roadname in HO then in O, and so forth. Go to any online train store or LHS, and they will have a lot of HO, very little O. 

I doubt price plays that big a role; if you have the space to build a large HO layout, you are going to be spending a lot of money, between the track and having structures and rolling stock and engines to use on it, and by the time you are done while there will be a price differential, if you are spending 10k to build an HO layout, and O would cost you 15k, the price is unlikely going to be a barrier (in other words, if you can spend 10k on a layout, you likely won't be that bothered about spending 15k on it), it is kind of like shopping for cars, 5k on a toyota camry is a lot, 5k on a Corvette ZR1 or a Porsche is not a big deal.

We use 1/43 vehicles, only slightly larger, about 10% I believe, and hardly noticeable by the casual observer. As for 2 rail vs three Rail O gauge; I will agree that two rail looks far more realistic but the market was started in three rail and has evolved that way. Equipment choices are very limited in two rail O. 

Comparing O to HO. With HO you can't see very much detail and in many cases you can't see very much of anything. O just looks better to me.

We use 1/43 vehicles, only slightly larger, about 10% I believe, and hardly noticeable by the casual observer.

More than "only slightly larger" since a 1/43 vehicle is 11.6% larger in each dimension (length, width, height) and thus is 39.1% larger in volume than a 1/48 vehicle.  That difference is noticeable by anyone with functional eyes.

I can only speculate what others think,but have found that many modelers think along the same lines,so here goes.

I agree,more videos of O scale layouts would help promote the scale.

As far as why people build in HO when they could have a nice O scale layout in the same space,can be for many reasons.

In my case,I've bought heavily in HO for a minimum of 20 years plus. So I have abought everything I need in HO.

2nd,I never discovered how O scale had blossomed out into

"true scale." The last time I was in O gauge,I was in Lionel & didn't know how realistic it had become.

Then there's price. All scales are being hit hard as far as pricing but being the largest of the 3 most modeled scales,O's naturally hit the hardest. This is VERY difficult for my situation even with high quality merchandise to sell in HO,being able to buy enough of what I want in O scale is going to be very challenging.

Another thing that holds O back,is that O is most heavily devoted to the steam era &transition era. The posts wanting modern diesels,i.e.,GP38-40s in O scale is small compared to the demands for steam engines. So those wanting modern equipment,will be sadly disappointed. I want modern working ground throws & shelf couplers myself in addition to more modern equipment.

I'm only throwing in my 2cents as it applies with my struggles in getting into O scale,as I've developed the space to expand in either HO or O Scale.

Al Hummel

"bigkid" has nailed it.  I can go back into the 1950's in model railroad magazines and

find whatever I want to make a layout in HO (to get my hands on it, I will have to camp out on eBay). Some of it has been made in O scale brass, not cheap, and not easy to find. Prototype to prototype, item to item, to HO...uh, no.  Say I wanted a logging road with small two truck Heislers and Climaxes.  HO, no problem.  Two rail O scale...long hunt. Three rail O scale/gauge...there ain't nair'n!

As for automobiles, I was blown away with all the pre-1941 auto models this

Canadian maker was showing in HO!!! at an NMRA convention.  Even in 1/43, the 39% oversize mentioned  above, there are few in dribs and drabs, at $130 a pop, which is more than I paid for this Lionel 0-8-0 set breakup loco.  Sure there are lots of cheaper ones:  later models, open cars, exotics, and furrin curs you never heard of.

I really like O 2 and 3 rail. We're in the minority of Scales? HO is King in terms of popularity and availability of different products.Just look at any model train magazine,browse large online train shops or visit your local hobby shop.  I bet the #1 seller and in stock items most likely will be HO scale. In terms of space; worry less in HO especially with the big radius curves. The curves get big in HO but nothing compared to curves in O 2 rail, important if space is at a premium.

I agree the detail in O is tops, however with the detail comes with a price $1700 for Lionel Vision Big Boy, Kohs $, 3rd rail sunset $2000. An Athearn HO Big Boy is about $500 new that includes DCC and sound.

I've often wondered the same thing as the original poster. I think the reason is the notion in hobbyists minds that HO is indeed cheaper. IMHO, it once was but I agree with the above that that is no longer the case. Many of the guys in this hobby are older and what they remember is HO is a lot cheaper than O and also much more realistic. As it was mentioned they don't even know 2 rail O exists. So it was like a double bonus for them to go with HO scale. What these guys don't realize is the costs of the smaller scales have caught up to O scale (volume wise as described above). It was a slow transition so they never noticed it. 

The price of O? 

   I've found the scale doesn't matter too much if one is filling equal space for a layout. O stuff costs more per piece but HO needs a lot more pieces and the costs of detail parts really adds up. Of course one can skew the comparison by buying high priced items in one scale and low priced in the other so individual choice makes a big difference. Given the long history and inventory of used O scale stuff O probably is a bit cheaper per square foot than the less well supplied scales like S and TT and probably comparable to HO and N scale costs for a finished layout of equal size.....DaveB

As previously mentioned, why HO?  compression(more railroad, more industry,more yard,more trains), more realism due to scale fidelity( it looks good because it's scaled correctly). Is HO easier to see? a lot of this issue has to do with layout height,  but I've never visited an HO layout that was hard to see, so to answer the question, well, umm, no.

Is it easier to see and work with O gauge as we get older? Why, at least for some. I operate with a lot of 65+ gentlemen that have HO railroads, no issues with them. Is there more detail in O?, maybe 20 years ago but certainly not today. There is a reason why HO is the#1 scale in model railroading. 

Is one better than another? Nope. I actually have and like both.

On a side note, Kent Johnson, Associate Producer of Model Railroader magazine has a basement layout in 3 rail O gauge. Here is a link, not sure it'll work

http://mrr.trains.com/layouts/...ale-canadian-pacific

When it comes to the starting and lower mid range, the prices have shifted in affordability from HO to O in the last few years. The change to DCC from block control and the cost of small electronics made a rather paradoxical change occur. That and all the stuff I like has been discontinued in mass in HO, or costs four -hundred plus.

As for why they used HO. the variety and sense of s space works better for a window display of the southwest, than a o gauge engine pulling a shorter train that looks cramped if done in scale and removes the vastness. it comes down not so much cost but what the owner/builder wants to achieve.

I disagree with the idea that the offerings are very limited in 2 rail O scale.    

I think that is exactly why newbies avoid it, they hear these statements and believe them. 

If you go to to the various 2-rail O scale shows around the country, March Meet, Cleveland, Indy, O Scale West, Cherry Vally etc to name just a few, you will hundreds of offerings in 2 rail.   there is huge variety.   

Now it is true most hobby shops focus on HO, N and 3 rail.   Many shops will even deny the existance of 2 rail O.   However, there are some very well know hobby shops that still handle it.    Dixie Union Station, and P&D hobbies for example.   But the issue you have to look.    The is even a free on line 2 rail magazine available that lists hundreds of suppliers.   It is called O Scale Resource.   And O Scale Trains magazine is focused mostly on 2 rail.    You have to do your research and work a little harder to find stuff, that is all.    And you may not find what you wnat on the first try.   But I would wager that more unique models of specific prototypes in brass 2 rail than have been done in diecast or plastic.    Brass is handbuilt in small runs, so it is easier to make unique items and customize them to specific roads.

Lots of myths do continue to be voiced and posted.  There's probably at least 1 in this thread,

Are you building an "O" layout or a scale car collection. You can build a layout without any vehicles. They are an option, not a necessity.

Simon

Actually, there are a number of kits for 1/48 cars for my modeling era from Wiseman Model Services (National Motor Co.).  Finding nice wagons (could scratch these), mules, horses and drivers is slightly difficult, but they are also available. 

Streets??  Oh, those dirt roads...... 

Dr. Jack,

If you are referring to the O Scale layout that USED to be located in the Denver Union Station, it is gone. The layout in the video is indeed HO, but not physically located in Denver.

No, the only point that may have been "proven" is that you have further defined what constitutes a "superb layout" IN YOUR OPINION.

I certainly think it is possible to have a superb layout without any automobiles -- indeed, one of the best I have ever seen, unfortunately only in photos, has no scenery at all other than station buildings, signals, and catenary.  Of course, MY idea of a superb layout is a model railroad -- not a diorama with assorted trains running through it.  Clearly, your idea differs, but that's OK -- "superb" is in the mind of the beholder.

SZ

The cost difference between HO and O today is not as great as it once was. And 20 years ago HO had a HUGE advantage in variety of equipment.  I know back in the late 70's and early 80's I was going into the hobby shop twice a month and ordering 6 HO scale MDC 3 bay hoppers in C&O.....total was $13.50.  I know 6 3 bay hoppers in O scale have never been $13.50! So if a big layout is a few years old....cost more than likely did play a role.....along with what was available.

Today HO is catching up cost wise fast. No more Athrean blue box or MDC kits for well under $5 each......no more Athrean F-7 AB sets for $30!! Now prices are getting very close.

AMCDave,

You hit it on the head.

Price plus availability. I remember you had to "Get it now," in HO too,then & now,but there's always,for the most part,been reruns if you missed the 1st run-not always but for the most part.

Also,in HO,Intermountain,Tangent & Accurail,ALL make models of the 4750 cvd grain hopper,vs Atlas making the 1 model. Here,if you missed the 1st run you're OUT if you can't find it on Ebay,in the corner of a hobby shop,or from a modeler who's got some that are willing to sell,at least this has been my experience.

Sadly,but factually put from a track manufacturer,O 2 rail,will probably be always looked upon as the relative you put up with. I'm thinking this is 100% right on. Lionel started 3 rail,I grew up with it,thought that was all there was in later life,then found out last year this isn't so. 3rail has exploded in realism over what it used to be,but that's still where the O scale market is so manufacturers naturally invest heaviest in that market,not 2rail.

O scale switches. The cheapest RTR models I've found are $65+ up to $102. The most expensive RTR HO switch DCC ready,is $23.99. I can see doubling that price as O is 2x larger than HO,but more than that-???

There should be at least the same amount of railroad materials,(equipment), available in O scale on the rails as well as trackside models as in HO,but that's not true. There should be more realistic models available because of the increase in size available to work in,but not so.

If I were a modeler looking for a scale to model in that offers the most realism & availability at reasonable prices,well I don't need to answer that & I'm VERY SORRY for that. O has SO MUCH TO OFFER if developed,it would make the choice in scales to model in VERY tough indeed.

Sorry,didn't answer your post to rant. I didn't mean to "bash" any scale or anyone,things just get in a fellas' mind & translate to his hands.

My plans are to sell my over supply of HO & N scales,plus anything I don't want in O scale,& see what might change in O scale that might tip the scales in favor of O scale a bit.

Thanks,

Al Hummel

The author of that couldn't possibly have ever dealt with G scale. Everything in that scale is orders of magnitude more than in any other scale. It's the primary reason why i never went very far in that scale beyond collecting a bunch of rolling stock, only to find I simply couldn't justify the crushing cost of... just about everything else in that scale.

Do the HO manufacturers place as many demands/restrictions/quantities/etc on LHS as the O scale manufacturers do?  Is it a simple thing of the LHS thinking "I can buy 24 of these HO cars for what 6 of the same O scale cars cost and not take up as much space"?

Does (insert a HO maker here) have the same buying policies for their HO LHS/outlets as Lionel, MTH, Atlas, and Bachmann have for their O scale LHS/outlets?  Does Bachmann have different LHS buying policies between HO and O?

And many of those models are considerably better detailed today than Athearn blue box or MDC models while the Genesis F7 AB sets have road specific detailing, DCC, sound and superb decoration.

Find me an Athearn $30 F7 AB set in the old days that had road specific detailing, let alone command control and sound. 

I remember paying $12.95 for a "super powered" (meaning extra weight) Athearn F7A and another $5.95 for the dummy B way back when.  The windshield was the wrong shape, no glazing, no handrails or grabirons, (that's what Walthers "Diesel Dress-Up" kit was for, an extra $5.95...) dual headlights whether you wanted them or not, inaccurate non illuminated numberboards shaped for easy release from the mold, class light lumps, no cab interior, no windshield wipers, steam generator lumps whether you wanted them or not, lift ring lumps and the ever-lovin' X2f couplers.  And oh yeah, there was about a 6'-8' scale gap between the A and B units.

I probably sunk about an extra 15-20 bucks plus some "sweat equity" back in the 80's into these two and they're nowhere even close to what an Athearn Genesis F7 looks like.

Rusty

I agree that MDC and Athrean Blue Box were very simple (and very cheap) but were the Williams of HO at the time. I have a number of them still (never could part with them) that went through a flood and sat under water for a day. I pulled them out, dunked the chassis in alcohol and used compressed air to dry....oiled them up....still run today! That will not happen with any electronic filled model train today.......so those $30 served a purpose.....and at the time being a new Dad of 3 kids with little money kept me in the hobby I have enjoyed then and now. And considering I can place them on my little 4x8 HO layout and they run a true bargain.

I love O scale, but HO scale has some huge advantages, one of which is still pricing. In HO scale it's possible to choose a level of detail, from 70's era Blue Box Athearn to 90's era Stewart, Kato, and Atlas, to the best of today's DCC/sound equipped locos.

And the bottom line is that most good quality HO runs better right out of the box than O scale equipment-- oftentimes much better. Some will challenge me on this, but I believe it's a true statement. 

Jeff C

My original question was:  Why do people who have the space choose a smaller scale instead of 2-rail O?

Thank you for all of your replies.  Perhaps the simple answer is that people start with a smaller scale and just never consider changing.

Most people start in the smaller scales because when you are young you don't have the space, time or money for a large layout.

When you get up in age and acquire enough space for the "dream layout" you probably have enough money to choose any scale.  I know a couple of guys who have built separate buildings for their layouts but are still into HO.  These building would easily house an O gauge layout.  They are packed with trains so expense is not an issue.

I hope that more people will choose O in the future.  

Joe

Maybe age has something to do with it too.......

My teens were N scale......next HO and now O.......Older display layouts or even home layouts were built when the average age of model railroaders was younger.  Thus Ho was good then....as I age O is better and better. I like 2r O but like the ease and simplicity of the 3r......even the nostalgia......

Well, there is always the balancing of one's life commitments vs. this hobby; family, housing, career stability, children, etc.  -- again, that impacts all scales and as they reach a freedom point, one can find more to invest, time or money, into this hobby.  At the NMRA function I attended this past Sat., I'm still one of the younger folks in the room but also just about the only O scale modeler, too.

You've hit the nail on the head there.

The typical reason is "I've got so much invested in..." but that's really just a smoke screen.  The individual has to see an advantage to changing scales (in either direction) depending on what they want to accomplish.

Rusty