Why is my 4-6-6T jumping the track.......New update with a happy ending!

Should the rear 6-wheel truck have some side to side play?  It looks like that truck is fixed in place and the rear drivers (being in the middle of the fixed wheelbase in this case) are being pulled off the rails to the inside of the curve.

Does the locomotive do the same thing when running light or only when pulling a train?

Is this new behavior?

The first obvious question is: is the track in gauge in that section? It likely is, but if the three-driver wheelbase is rigid and the rails are spread even a little, perhaps it is allowing the last axle to drop in.

The second obvious question: is the last driver set in gauge? It likely is, but again if it is slightly more narrow than the others it might not like this one section of track.

@Bob posted:

Should the rear 6-wheel truck have some side to side play?  It looks like that truck is fixed in place and the rear drivers (being in the middle of the fixed wheelbase in this case) are being pulled off the rails to the inside of the curve.

Does the locomotive do the same thing when running light or only when pulling a train?

I agree with Bob's assessment.  That's exactly what it looks like, that the rear trucks are not pivoting. 

Get down and close to the tracks and watch it that way.

You only have one video which sort of gets close enough for us to evaluate the situation.  Another video at track level would be helpful.

@Bob posted:

Should the rear 6-wheel truck have some side to side play?  It looks like that truck is fixed in place and the rear drivers (being in the middle of the fixed wheelbase in this case) are being pulled off the rails to the inside of the curve.

Does the locomotive do the same thing when running light or only when pulling a train?

Both.......by itself and with a load....I'll pay attention to the rear truck tomorrow. It seemed OK when I put it on the track..

Thanks, Bob

Peter

@Allegheny posted:

I agree with Bob's assessment.  That's exactly what it looks like, that the rear trucks are not pivoting.

Get down and close to the tracks and watch it that way.

You only have one video which sort of gets close enough for us to evaluate the situation.  Another video at track level would be helpful.

Will do!

Thanks.

Peter

@mwb posted:

Is this new behavior?

Yes, and nothing has changed that was obvious to me......I will observe the rear truck again tomorrow......

Thanks, Peter

@BenLMaggi posted:

The first obvious question is: is the track in gauge in that section? It likely is, but if the three-driver wheelbase is rigid and the rails are spread even a little, perhaps it is allowing the last axle to drop in.

The second obvious question: is the last driver set in gauge? It likely is, but again if it is slightly more narrow than the others it might not like this one section of track.

Thank you, I will check it.

Peter

I'll give a third vote for an issue with the rear truck. It appears to be hanging up for whatever reason.

Theres usually a  spring loaded pin that puts pressure and slides back and forth under the chassis to keep down pressure on the truck.. Maybe it needs lubrication or was incorrectly installed.

Take the rear truck off and run it with just the drivers  If that runs thhen you know where the problem is

I had an issue with A Lionel mikado where the rear truck would jump the tracks as it was not pivoting easily.  With the help of @Dave Olson, I found out the factory didn’t correctly assemble the guide with the spring the washers were not in the correct order.

Many thanks for all the replies......I will take videos later today and report back to the group......

We have our regular meeting of the modular group this AM....I am truly blessed that Gilly@N&W and Kanawha will be there.....they both possess insight and technical ability that is a quantum leap beyond mine.....

Peter

@Putnam Division posted:

Yes, and nothing has changed that was obvious to me......I will observe the rear truck again tomorrow......

Thanks, Peter

Then as others have noted something has changed and that is most probably associated with something compromising the freedom of motion of the rear truck.  Wiring or power lead off that truck?

A friends Lionel UP 4-12-2 was derailing on curves and when I turned it over there was no lubrication where the rear truck slides on the frame. A light wipe of grease allowed it to slide left or right smoothly and solved the problem. May not be your issue. Can we see an image of the bottom Peter? Pondering purchasing one.

When I rolled the engine over, the issue was identified  immediately.....thanks to all who pointed me to the trailing truck.....now I have to figure out the part I need.....

Thanks to all, again

Peter

It’s missing?  Did it fall out in the box or is it somewhere on the layout?

@Putnam Division posted:

When I rolled the engine over, the issue was identified  immediately.....thanks to all who pointed me to the trailing truck.....now I have to figure out the part I need.....

Thanks to all, again

Peter

Peter this is what it looks like.

And the last time I checked there is NO parts list and/or drawings on Lionel's web-site.  and the discussion I had with them about this fact left no feels of joy anytime soon.  In fact I asked for the part number of the smoke unit and they could not help.

Ron

Looks like a shouldered screw. You could fab one with a plain metric screw and small piece of metal tubing.

Pete

@Putnam Division posted:

When I rolled the engine over, the issue was identified  immediately.....thanks to all who pointed me to the trailing truck.....now I have to figure out the part I need.....

Thanks to all, again

Peter

Glad you at least discovered the cause of your problems, hopefully Lionel or your local store can set you up with the screw.

Lionel's QC has gone way down.  The last 3 Lionel engine's all had problems, all 17 before were fine.  As a side note every K-line engine worked Great out of the box!  The world we live in.

I don’t think this is a QC problem. Screws do come loose after time. Obviously the screw is somewhere on the layout or in the storage box.

@Putnam Division posted:

When I rolled the engine over, the issue was identified  immediately.....thanks to all who pointed me to the trailing truck.....now I have to figure out the part I need.....

Thanks to all, again

Peter

Hi Peter, My B6sb was returned from some warranty work and while I was inspecting it, I noticed the pilot/step assembly was loose and that a screw was missing. Communicated with Aaron in CS and he had their parts manager send me a replacement…took a couple of weeks, but they did take care of it for me. Glad you found the problem with yours, should be an easy fix…🚂😉😺

@romiller49 posted:

I don’t think this is a QC problem. Screws do come loose after time. Obviously the screw is somewhere on the layout or in the storage box.

I’d agree with Rod on this,…fasteners work themselves loose,….I’m sure glad Peter found the problem, and it’ll be an easy fix,….so please don’t turn this thread into a washed out QC thread,…..all the whining gets old real quick,

Pat

@PRRronbh posted:

Peter this is what it looks like.

And the last time I checked there is NO parts list and/or drawings on Lionel's web-site.  and the discussion I had with them about this fact left no feels of joy anytime soon.  In fact I asked for the part number of the smoke unit and they could not help.

Ron

Ron......you are absolutely correct.......no parts numbers on the website......all that is listed is the front pilot! That is really discouraging.

It's neither on the layout, nor the box.......and since my layout is in flux, this engine lives in my O Scale Hauler with my Niagara, an NYC milk car and an NYC bay window caboose....I took everything out....

I will have to call them......the thought of hanging on an hour waiting for a tech is aggravating.......I'd rather order the part and be done with it!

Peter

It seems to me that that is a common screw Lionel has used on other engines.  I would do a search for it by looking at some other steamers.  Maybe you can locate it.

I was looking for a vestibule for one of my Empire State passenger cars and Lionel did not list one available but I did a search and found one listed for a Santa Fe passenger car that was an exact replacement.

Give it a try.

Lionel has dozens of shoulder screws. I don't believe they have done this engine before since acquiring the dies from K-Line. This is the screw (top photo) found in the K-Line engine. I was surprised the dimensions are english rather than metric.

The diameter of the shoulder is .2", the length of the shoulder is .25" and the thread is a 4-40 x .2" long.

Closest metric size is 5mm x 6mm x 3mm diameter thread x .5mm pitch.

You could make something close but first have to determine if your engine uses an english or metric thread. Start wiith 3mm and 4-40 screws and see which one, if either, screws into the hole. Then its just a matter of using a small piece of tubing to make the shoulder. If the head is too small than add a washer like the one used on the engine truck.

I would think a trip to the hardware store is easier than sending your engine to Lionel unless they can ship the part to you.

Pete

@Putnam Division posted:

Ron......you are absolutely correct.......no parts numbers on the website......all that is listed is the front pilot! That is really discouraging.

It's neither on the layout, nor the box.......and since my layout is in flux, this engine lives in my O Scale Hauler with my Niagara, an NYC milk car and an NYC bay window caboose....I took everything out....

I will have to call them......the thought of hanging on an hour waiting for a tech is aggravating.......I'd rather order the part and be done with it!

Peter

Peter,

    Whenever I call Lionel service and I am placed on hold they usually offer a call back service. Works like a charm. I am not a frequent caller but every time I go on hold and this feature is offered I use it. Much better than hanging on hold.

JohnB

@Norton posted:

You could make something close but first have to determine if your engine uses an english or metric thread. Start wiith 3mm and 4-40 screws and see which one, if either, screws into the hole. Then its just a matter of using a small piece of tubing to make the shoulder. If the head is too small than add a washer like the one used on the engine truck.

I would think a trip to the hardware store is easier than sending your engine to Lionel unless they can ship the part to you.

Pete

Excellent solution!

Pete offered a good solution.  I’ve used a roll pin in the past to make a shouldered screw. Just find one at the hardware store that slips over the screw your using. It’s a pain to cut and file to get the length you need. But they are much thicker than say brass tubing.

@harmonyards posted:

I’d agree with Rod on this,…fasteners work themselves loose,….I’m sure glad Peter found the problem, and it’ll be an easy fix,….so please don’t turn this thread into a washed out QC thread,…..all the whining gets old real quick,

Pat

Sorry but I totally disagree on this one.  That shoulder screw should have had loctite on it and torqued to spec.   No excuse for it coming loose and falling off.  Or worse yet never been installed.

as for one who has purchased junk from Lionel I’m going to WHINE real loud

@superwarp1 posted:

Sorry but I totally disagree on this one.  That shoulder screw should have had loctite on it and torqued to spec.   No excuse for it coming loose and falling off.  Or worse yet never been installed.

as for one who has purchased junk from Lionel I’m going to WHINE real loud

Unfortunately, I doubt the factory is going to break out the torque wrenches for a flat head screw,…and putting loctite on a fastener that needs to be removed on occasion for servicing or repairs isn’t a good idea either,….as I’ve said hundreds of times, I’m not excusing the big L, and yes, y’all’s gripes are 100% founded, but threads like this that could be useful for the next guy, wind up cluttered to death with the same rants over and over again and it falls on deaf ears anyways,……Pete’s fix is a good example, the thread could help the next guy that loses the screw on his own accord and wants a solution,….but eventually this thread COULD be deleted if the only thing prevalent is “ their QC sucks” ……and like I’ve said,…yeah, it does!…I’m with y’all 100% ….but solutions solve problems that the manufacturers are clearly gonna ignore,….that’s my point Gary,….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Unfortunately, I doubt the factory is going to break out the torque wrenches for a flat head screw,…and putting loctite on a fastener that needs to be removed on occasion for servicing or repairs isn’t a good idea either,….as I’ve said hundreds of times, I’m not excusing the big L, and yes, y’all’s gripes are 100% founded, but threads like this that could be useful for the next guy, wind up cluttered to death with the same rants over and over again and it falls on deaf ears anyways,……Pete’s fix is a good example, the thread could help the next guy that loses the screw on his own accord and wants a solution,….but eventually this thread COULD be deleted if the only thing prevalent is “ their QC sucks” ……and like I’ve said,…yeah, it does!…I’m with y’all 100% ….but solutions solve problems that the manufacturers are clearly gonna ignore,….that’s my point Gary,….

Pat

So why continue it by whining about the whiners?  Just don't say anything.  Pete has suggestions, he's good to go.  I now return you to your regular scheduled programing.

Hi Peter,  the thing I would do is go to the Lionel Web-Site use the "contact us" email and ask if they can come up with the screw.

Now as far as Jury- Rigging I would only use a BRASS spacer since brass has natural lubricating properties.

Now I learned a basic lesson a while back.  I took my "Best Friend of Charleston" to my local dealer to run it around.  After a few laps it started making a strange noise and the rod was flaying around.  The rod screw came out.  Fortunately found the screw on the lay out.  

After this leaning curve, Every time I got a new engine put it upside down in the foam cradle. First would check ALL screws and[or bolts tube tight.  Then check that there is grease in the gear box (some years back Atlas shipped a bunch of diesels with dry gear boxes).  Athen lubed all moving parts.  Turn it over and add smoke fluid.  Then put it up on the dynamic test stand to run it in looking and listening for any hint of a problem.

Ron

@Norton posted:

Looks like a shouldered screw. You could fab one with a plain metric screw and small piece of metal tubing.

Pete

Yes; done this before. This is your answer. It's a screw. If you gave a "screw box" you might already have one. Also, if your screw head is too small, a washer will fill in.

I have to chuckle.......you guys don't realize how inept I am at stuff like this......

I believe that each of us has our own strengths and weaknesses........for instance, God forbid, if you are near death in an ICU, on a ventilator, with acute kidney injury, oliguria, hyperkalemia and a complex acid/base disorder.......I'M YOUR GUY............this stuff, well, I have never able to visualize things in 3 dimensions......and, I'm clearly out of my comfort zone.

Thank you so much for everything........the pictures and descriptions have been great. They give me an idea of what to do if I can't get a part from Lionel.

Thanks to all so much. I will let everyone how things turn out.

Peter

@Putnam Division posted:

I have to chuckle.......you guys don't realize how inept I am at stuff like this......

I believe that each of us has our own strengths and weaknesses........for instance, God forbid, if you are near death in an ICU, on a ventilator, with acute kidney injury, oliguria, hyperkalemia and a complex acid/base disorder.......I'M YOUR GUY............this stuff, well, I have never able to visualize things in 3 dimensions......and, I'm clearly out of my comfort zone.

Thank you so much for everything........the pictures and descriptions have been great. They give me an idea of what to do if I can't get a part from Lionel.

Thanks to all so much. I will let everyone how things turn out.

Peter

When you contact Lionel ask them also for the washer that fits between the truck and the coupler bar. Its a small fender washer that fits the thread of the screw and holds the coupler bar in place. Not a common size.

Pete

@Norton posted:

When you contact Lionel ask them also for the washer that fits between the truck and the coupler bar. Its a small fender washer that fits the thread of the screw and holds the coupler bar in place. Not a common size.

Pete

Thank you, Pete...................part of my problem is I don't speak the language and knowing what to ask for is key!  

Peter

@Norton posted:

When you contact Lionel ask them also for the washer that fits between the truck and the coupler bar. Its a small fender washer that fits the thread of the screw and holds the coupler bar in place. Not a common size.

Pete

There is NO washer between the truck tongue and mounting surface.

In this image from bottom up see the shouldered screw (pan, fillister or cheese Head), space, then the truck tongue, then more space, and then the mounting surface. This space is intentional so that the truck can track uneven spots and negotiate inclines.

I don't have the Lionel version. Only the K-Line engine where they do have a washer between the truck frame and the coupler arm. Maybe the screw Lionel used is a different design that is able to hold the coupler arm in place without the washer.

Since you have a Lionel model maybe you could verify the screw dimentions in case Peter has to fabricate one??

Pete