Something may be a non-issue for you, and yet it could be a major problem for someone else. When investigating why O 2 rail isn't more popular you need to take the potential market as they are, not as you want them to be.
In the mid-1980s I wandered into a shop that had some of the most gorgeous O 2 rail steam locos. It was one of four events that I identify as getting me back into O, albeit 3 rail. In all of the years since I have not set foot in another shop that had a significant amount of O 2 rail. It isn't for lack of trying. By the time a potential model train fan is exposed to his first O 2 rail locomotive he's probably already experienced HO, G and O 3 rail. He may already invested in one of these alternatives, and has a good idea of where to purchase for these alternatives.
Don't knock PEZ dispensers. There are people out there who enjoy collecting them too.
No need to knock on PEZ dispensers. Not my thing, I grant you that. But if you want me to expand on the analogy. To many, a prewar Lionel 700e Hudson carries the same intrinsic value as a PEZ dispenser.
OK. There have been about 185 replies to my original post. Most posts have discussed why OS2R is a minority scale within the model railroad community. Some interesting comments have been totally off topic. That is OK. I have learned from everyone's comments.
Now that we have discussed the reasons why OS2R is a minority scale, let's try to answer the second question: What can be done to increase OS2R's appeal to model railroaders?
Everyone is going to enjoy the hobby in their own way. An accomplished model railroader once told me that he did not have any obligation or desire to promote the hobby. He was going to enjoy it on his own terms. His awesome layout is well known in the local area. This is a valid approach.
However, there are those who do care about promoting OS2R for various reasons. Some are manufacturers, dealers, train show organizers, magazine publishers, and professional builders who make their living creating, selling, and writing about model trains. Some older folks are to the point where they are going to be selling their collections in a few years. They need future buyers. (This is me for sure.) Some people just like to operate OS2R trains with others and want to ensure that they have a supply of equipment and product with which to enjoy the hobby. Some people like to collect well detailed OS2R trains. Some people like to build stuff and want a continued supply of kits and parts. Personally, model railroading and O scale railroading have brought me a lot of fun and pleasure. I want to share my passion with others.
The OSK / OSC club has begun a new and comprehensive effort to promote OS2R. The people involved want to see OS2R flourish. They don't want to see the March Meet, Indy Show, and other OS2R activities wither away. They don't want to see OS2R clubs close one by one. Promoting the hobby and helping it to flourish is also a valid approach.
1. Space: Space, or rather the lack of it, is the most mentioned reason for selecting a smaller scale or 3-rail instead of OS2R. A person's home / house is what it is. That is unlikely to change. Few people can afford to buy a home with bigger basement. How can this be overcome?
A. Modular Layouts: I have seen modular railroads in all scales up to and including G at the national train shows that I have attended. Many of these modular railroads are huge occupying an area of about 100 X 30 feet.
What isn't seen at most shows? Yes, it is OS2R. I have only seen one OS2R modular layout at a national train show. It wasn't well done when compared to the modules in other scales. About half of the display was a plywood central when I saw it. I believe that the OS2R community needs to embrace modular railroading. This will give people space to run trains and make OS2R more visible to their fellow model railroaders.
OSK/OSC is developing a OS2R module standard. Hopefully it will be available soon. A nationwide standard similar to HO Free-Mo will allow OS2R modelers from all over the country to join their modules in one large display. Please see this video if you are not familiar with Free-Mo.
People who do not have space in which to build a layout may have the room to build a module. Consider forming a modular layout club if there is not one in your area. Check the forthcoming OSK standards so that your modules will be compatible with modules from around the country.
B. Outdoors: I was lucky to have lived in London when I was teenager. I fell in love with English trains and model railroading. I follow the English modeling in their magazines. English homes are in general much smaller than their American counterparts. Therefore, English OS2R modelers often build their railroads in their gardens. There is something exciting about seeing a long well detailed train running in natural sunlight. Constructing an outdoor railroad is no more difficult than building one indoors. It does have to withstand the weather. This means painting the bench work with outdoor house paint. Of course, the trains are brought inside at the end of the operations session. You can find out about my experience running O gauge outdoors here:
The G&O outdoor railroad is 3-rail but the concept is the same. The G&O would have been 2-rail. This was precluded by having to share the display with 2-rail G gauge trains.
Both the modular and outdoors should be considered if you don't have indoor space to run trains.
2. Control: Lack of a OS2R standard control system was the second most mentioned reason for people rejecting building an OS2R layout. This is true. Most of the OS2R layouts that I have visited are controlled by DC block control from a central control panel.
I believe that the OS2R community needs to embrace DCC. It can be rail or battery powered. People say that they aren't going to the expense of converting their engine fleet. It is viewed as an overwhelming task.
This is the same issue that people in the smaller scales faced 20 years ago. The other scales including G started converting one engine at a time. I operate on a private N scale layout where over a hundred engines have been converted to DCC with sound. Today, only OS2R is stuck in the DC age. People of all ages want to control their trains using command control. Many use their cell phones. Command control is the future.
How do we encourage people to convert? First, I suggest that all new modular railroads be built with DCC control. Second, I recommend that OSK/OSC sponsor clinics at all train shows on how to convert an engine. Third, I recommend that the OS2R publications seek detailed articles on how to convert locomotive. Fourth, OS2R clubs should have a program to help their members install DCC. This is what my HO club did. Five of us who knew nothing about DCC took conventional engines to the club and converted them under the guidance of an experienced club member. We learned to do it together.
3. Product Availability: This was the third most mentioned topic. Everyone who knows where to look can find nearly any item that they need to build an OS2R layout. Newcomers, however, have no idea where to look.
OSK/OSC is addressing this issue by posting a comprehensive list of OS2R manufacturers and retailers on the new O Scale Central website. Here is the link: oscalecentral.com
Check it out.
4. Expense: There is no getting around that OS2R items are generally more expensive than a similar item in the smaller scales. G scale items cost about the same.
The cost to build a layout in any given space is about the same in all scales. This is because the larger the scale, the fewer items are needed to fill the space. An HO layout may have 30 engines while a OS2R layout built in the same space will have room for only 10. The same goes for track, buildings, etc.
OS2R modelers need to point this to people considering converting to their scale. In many cases, less is more. I feel that it is better to have a few well detailed and running models than to own many smaller models. The more models that a person owns, the more that they have to maintain. I have visited HO layouts that have 1,000 plus freight cars to maintain and more engines than I could count. In short, smaller scales can be more work, time consuming and expensive.
5. Visibility: OS2R needs to be more visible to modelers in the other scales and to potential modelers. This can be done by clubs by having more open houses. Private layout owners can open their layouts if they are comfortable inviting the public into their homes. Modular layouts need to be displayed at multi-scale train shows.
OS2R also needs a better online presence. The OSK/OSC club is starting to do this with their O Scale Central website. There needs to be a presence on Facebook, Instagram, etc. I don't have accounts with any of these sites and I don't intend signup now. Younger people, however, who already use these sites could help OS2R by posting about OS2R.
6. Be Unique: This is the final reason for selecting OS2R instead of another scale. I am stealing this concept from Bob Bartizek who built the fabulous 3-rail Pennsylvania & Western.
Bob was asked in a video about why he selected O scale for the P&W instead of a smaller scale when he finally got his dream layout basement. Bob started his modeling in N scale.
Bob said something like this: There are many, many spectacular layouts in the small scales in my area and across the country. If I built in one of the those scales, I would just be building another one. I wanted to do something different.
Bob went 3-rail scale because of the availability of equipment and command control at the time he started his layout a couple of decades ago. OS2R didn't have this at that time.
OS2R is unique. Embrace the difference.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I welcome your comments and thoughts.
The OSK made a push a few years ago, but have been conspicuously absent from public viewing of this new and comprehensive effort to promote OS2R. Just what are they doing now?
OSK has rebranded its public face as O Scale Central (OSC). The club's legal name will remain O Scale Kings but it will do business as O Scale Central. This was done because some modelers were turned off by the O Scale King name. People thought a name with "King" in it is arrogant. Of course, just changing a name does nothing to promote the hobby.
This is what O Scale Central is doing to promote the OS2R hobby:
1. Website: OSC has created an all new website at: oscalecentral.com. The O Scale Info tab lists online and print resources, clubs that model in OS2R and a calendar of OS2R events. It has links to articles about "how to get started in OS2R".
2. The Coupler: The Coupler is a new quarterly journal/newsletter about all things OS2R. Issue #2 was just published.
3. OSC is going to represent the OS2R community at 2-rail and multi-scale train shows. This involves having literature and people to talk to modelers about the benefits of OS2R.
4. OSC is developing national standards for OS2R modular layouts. This will allow a module built anywhere in the country to connect and be operated with other modules. This is an attempt to make OS2R more visible at multi-scale train shows. It also allows builders to show off their creations.
5. OSC is going to work with train show promoters to spotlight OS2R at their shows. It is also going to encourage vendors to attend multiple-scale shows.
6. OSC maintains a private forum where members can connect with each other and discuss the OS2R hobby.
7. OSC has a marketing committee that is developing additional ideas to improve the awareness of OS2R among model railroaders.
8. OSC has started periodic Zoom meetings to connect OS2R modelers throughout the nation.
All of these efforts are in their early stages. I believe it is a good start.
What can be done to increase OS2R's appeal to model railroaders?
If a manufacturer produces reliable, off-the-shelf, battery powered O scale. Never mind trying to increase interest. When that happens, OS2R will become the dominant force in O. I’ll see myself out.
OK. There have been about 185 replies to my original post. Most posts have discussed why OS2R is a minority scale within the model railroad community. Some interesting comments have been totally off topic. That is OK. I have learned from everyone's comments.
Now that we have discussed the reasons why OS2R is a minority scale, let's try to answer the second question: What can be done to increase OS2R's appeal to model railroaders?
Everyone is going to enjoy the hobby in their own way. An accomplished model railroader once told me that he did not have any obligation or desire to promote the hobby. He was going to enjoy it on his own terms. His awesome layout is well known in the local area. This is a valid approach.
However, there are those who do care about promoting OS2R for various reasons. Some are manufacturers, dealers, train show organizers, magazine publishers, and professional builders who make their living creating, selling, and writing about model trains. Some older folks are to the point where they are going to be selling their collections in a few years. They need future buyers. (This is me for sure.) Some people just like to operate OS2R trains with others and want to ensure that they have a supply of equipment and product with which to enjoy the hobby. Some people like to collect well detailed OS2R trains. Some people like to build stuff and want a continued supply of kits and parts. Personally, model railroading and O scale railroading have brought me a lot of fun and pleasure. I want to share my passion with others.
The OSK / OSC club has begun a new and comprehensive effort to promote OS2R. The people involved want to see OS2R flourish. They don't want to see the March Meet, Indy Show, and other OS2R activities wither away. They don't want to see OS2R clubs close one by one. Promoting the hobby and helping it to flourish is also a valid approach.
1. Space: Space, or rather the lack of it, is the most mentioned reason for selecting a smaller scale or 3-rail instead of OS2R. A person's home / house is what it is. That is unlikely to change. Few people can afford to buy a home with bigger basement. How can this be overcome?
A. Modular Layouts: I have seen modular railroads in all scales up to and including G at the national train shows that I have attended. Many of these modular railroads are huge occupying an area of about 100 X 30 feet.
What isn't seen at most shows? Yes, it is OS2R. I have only seen one OS2R modular layout at a national train show. It wasn't well done when compared to the modules in other scales. About half of the display was a plywood central when I saw it. I believe that the OS2R community needs to embrace modular railroading. This will give people space to run trains and make OS2R more visible to their fellow model railroaders.
OSK/OSC is developing a OS2R module standard. Hopefully it will be available soon. A nationwide standard similar to HO Free-Mo will allow OS2R modelers from all over the country to join their modules in one large display. Please see this video if you are not familiar with Free-Mo.
People who do not have space in which to build a layout may have the room to build a module. Consider forming a modular layout club if there is not one in your area. Check the forthcoming OSK standards so that your modules will be compatible with modules from around the country.
B. Outdoors: I was lucky to have lived in London when I was teenager. I fell in love with English trains and model railroading. I follow the English modeling in their magazines. English homes are in general much smaller than their American counterparts. Therefore, English OS2R modelers often build their railroads in their gardens. There is something exciting about seeing a long well detailed train running in natural sunlight. Constructing an outdoor railroad is no more difficult than building one indoors. It does have to withstand the weather. This means painting the bench work with outdoor house paint. Of course, the trains are brought inside at the end of the operations session. You can find out about my experience running O gauge outdoors here:
The G&O outdoor railroad is 3-rail but the concept is the same. The G&O would have been 2-rail. This was precluded by having to share the display with 2-rail G gauge trains.
Both the modular and outdoors should be considered if you don't have indoor space to run trains.
2. Control: Lack of a OS2R standard control system was the second most mentioned reason for people rejecting building an OS2R layout. This is true. Most of the OS2R layouts that I have visited are controlled by DC block control from a central control panel.
I believe that the OS2R community needs to embrace DCC. It can be rail or battery powered. People say that they aren't going to the expense of converting their engine fleet. It is viewed as an overwhelming task.
This is the same issue that people in the smaller scales faced 20 years ago. The other scales including G started converting one engine at a time. I operate on a private N scale layout where over a hundred engines have been converted to DCC with sound. Today, only OS2R is stuck in the DC age. People of all ages want to control their trains using command control. Many use their cell phones. Command control is the future.
How do we encourage people to convert? First, I suggest that all new modular railroads be built with DCC control. Second, I recommend that OSK/OSC sponsor clinics at all train shows on how to convert an engine. Third, I recommend that the OS2R publications seek detailed articles on how to convert locomotive. Fourth, OS2R clubs should have a program to help their members install DCC. This is what my HO club did. Five of us who knew nothing about DCC took conventional engines to the club and converted them under the guidance of an experienced club member. We learned to do it together.
3. Product Availability: This was the third most mentioned topic. Everyone who knows where to look can find nearly any item that they need to build an OS2R layout. Newcomers, however, have no idea where to look.
OSK/OSC is addressing this issue by posting a comprehensive list of OS2R manufacturers and retailers on the new O Scale Central website. Here is the link: oscalecentral.com
Check it out.
4. Expense: There is no getting around that OS2R items are generally more expensive than a similar item in the smaller scales. G scale items cost about the same.
The cost to build a layout in any given space is about the same in all scales. This is because the larger the scale, the fewer items are needed to fill the space. An HO layout may have 30 engines while a OS2R layout built in the same space will have room for only 10. The same goes for track, buildings, etc.
OS2R modelers need to point this to people considering converting to their scale. In many cases, less is more. I feel that it is better to have a few well detailed and running models than to own many smaller models. The more models that a person owns, the more that they have to maintain. I have visited HO layouts that have 1,000 plus freight cars to maintain and more engines than I could count. In short, smaller scales can be more work, time consuming and expensive.
5. Visibility: OS2R needs to be more visible to modelers in the other scales and to potential modelers. This can be done by clubs by having more open houses. Private layout owners can open their layouts if they are comfortable inviting the public into their homes. Modular layouts need to be displayed at multi-scale train shows.
OS2R also needs a better online presence. The OSK/OSC club is starting to do this with their O Scale Central website. There needs to be a presence on Facebook, Instagram, etc. I don't have accounts with any of these sites and I don't intend signup now. Younger people, however, who already use these sites could help OS2R by posting about OS2R.
6. Be Unique: This is the final reason for selecting OS2R instead of another scale. I am stealing this concept from Bob Bartizek who built the fabulous 3-rail Pennsylvania & Western.
Bob was asked in a video about why he selected O scale for the P&W instead of a smaller scale when he finally got his dream layout basement. Bob started his modeling in N scale.
Bob said something like this: There are many, many spectacular layouts in the small scales in my area and across the country. If I built in one of the those scales, I would just be building another one. I wanted to do something different.
Bob went 3-rail scale because of the availability of equipment and command control at the time he started his layout a couple of decades ago. OS2R didn't have this at that time.
OS2R is unique. Embrace the difference.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I welcome your comments and thoughts.
If a manufacturer produces reliable, off-the-shelf, battery powered O scale. Never mind trying to increase interest. When that happens, OS2R will become the dominant force in O. I’ll see myself out.
I concur that this would be a big help and a giant step forward to the hobby. NH Joe
Dick Donaway - Dick, you commented on O Scale 2R being too expensive. Curiously - now I haven't done a statistical regression analysis to substantiate this observation - but I note that the really finely detailed brass items in HO scale seem to cost about the same as an O Scale counter part. And there are inexpensive used items and styrene diesels and rolling stock which seem comparable to seemingly cheaper HO items.
And for all concerned with O Scale 2R space requirements, I have 15' by 2' switching diorama with 3 switches that has given me an abundance of pleasure for 20+ years. And I switch with articulateds doing mainline setouts !
I'm wondering do the executives at Chevy ruminate why consumers are buying Ford or GMC trucks instead of theirs? I'm confidant they constantly cogitate on product changes and advertising methods to increase their sales.
But are Chevy customers this concerned about those people who stray from the path and buy something other than a Chevy truck?
I guess it just goes to show that not everyone likes the same kind of trucks, toys, or hobbies.
OSK has rebranded its public face as O Scale Central (OSC). The club's legal name will remain O Scale Kings but it will do business as O Scale Central. This was done because some modelers were turned off by the O Scale King name. People thought a name with "King" in it is arrogant. Of course, just changing a name does nothing to promote the hobby.
That name carried a lot baggage; decades of it......and a lot of negative perceptions real and imaginary.
This is what O Scale Central is doing to promote the OS2R hobby:
1. Website: OSC has created an all new website at: oscalecentral.com. The O Scale Info tab lists online and print resources, clubs that model in OS2R and a calendar of OS2R events. It has links to articles about "how to get started in OS2R".
That I knew about; they also had a public forum that ~10 people participated in/on/at......either no one knew about it or no one wanted it, or both.
2. The Coupler: The Coupler is a new quarterly journal/newsletter about all things OS2R. Issue #2 was just published.
Never heard of it; announced anywhere?
3. OSC is going to represent the OS2R community at 2-rail and multi-scale train shows. This involves having literature and people to talk to modelers about the benefits of OS2R.
Yes.........bang the tambourine....
4. OSC is developing national standards for OS2R modular layouts. This will allow a module built anywhere in the country to connect and be operated with other modules. This is an attempt to make OS2R more visible at multi-scale train shows. It also allows builders to show off their creations.
Thought standards already existed? And, this new national standard will be made available?
5. OSC is going to work with train show promoters to spotlight OS2R at their shows. It is also going to encourage vendors to attend multiple-scale shows.
Good luck with that - O scale vendors trying to sell to non O scale modelers seems like a lovely way for vendors to lose money and find that a waste of their time and money.
6. OSC maintains a private forum where members can connect with each other and discuss the OS2R hobby.
Oh, it was reborn as a private forum -- not visible to non-members. How does that reach anyone other than the choir or increase numbers, popularity, etc.?
7. OSC has a marketing committee that is developing additional ideas to improve the awareness of OS2R among model railroaders.
Hopefully they will let us all know about these ideas.........
8. OSC has started periodic Zoom meetings to connect OS2R modelers throughout the nation.
Never heard of them; again, not announced publicly so who knows, attends, etc. So where is this information? If it's all on the OSK website that's just reaching the choir members.
All of these efforts are in their early stages. I believe it is a good start.
Early stages.......... Seem like a lot of stuff behind the curtain.
OSK/OSC is developing a OS2R module standard. Hopefully it will be available soon. A nationwide standard similar to HO Free-Mo will allow OS2R modelers from all over the country to join their modules in one large display. ...snip...
Hmmm, the East Penn traction group has had a modular system since before 1964 (originally created by Everett Wood and others) and a few of those modules still exist and are completely compatible with much newer modules.
I'm wondering do the executives at Chevy ruminate why consumers are buying Ford or GMC trucks instead of theirs? I'm confidant they constantly cogitate on product changes and advertising methods to increase their sales.
But are Chevy customers this concerned about those people who stray from the path and buy something other than a Chevy truck?
I guess it just goes to show that not everyone likes the same kind of trucks, toys, or hobbies.
I think you might be trying to equate the 2-rail folks here with Chevy... I'm not sure that's quite fair.
My interpretation of this thread is some feel the O scale 2-rail market is not that they want to see other scales or 3-rail suffer, rather that 2-rail is discouragingly small. For any "market" to exists there is a critical mass needed. I don't know if 2-rail has contracted below that point or not, but personally I think a healthy 2-rail market supports 3-rail and vice-versa. I don't think it's too much to ask to have the manufacturers offer locomotives that can easily switch between fixed pilots and swinging AND be able to switch from "hi-rail" (deep flanges) to "scale" (code 145) wheels.
I actually think there's no reason that the scale 3-rail locomotive offerings couldn't use fixed pilots as well. Having the coupler move with the truck is the important part for tight radii. Therefore, just having a removable lobster claw coupler and a plastic piece that snaps in to close the gaping hole and provide a Kadee compatible mount would probably solve most of it. Sunset/3rd rail does this already, the only thing they are missing is the swappable wheels. The traditional and semi-scale stuff Lionel makes could still have swinging pilots and no one would care in the 2-rail or "3-rail scale" communities.
4. OSC is developing national standards for OS2R modular layouts. This will allow a module built anywhere in the country to connect and be operated with other modules. This is an attempt to make OS2R more visible at multi-scale train shows. It also allows builders to show off their creations.
Why can't OS2R modelers recruit more model railroaders to participate in their scale? (It seems that a few people could be recruited to cross a 6 foot aisle from HO to O.)
What can be done to encourage more people to model in OS2R?
My answer to the original posters questions is: show the model railroading community and the general public what can be done with 2 rail O scale:
Publish articles in the Model Railroading press: Not just OGR of course, but those that typically concentrate on other scales. In particular, Model Railroading and Railroad Model Craftsman. But don't forget Railway Modeler, the UK publication
Join the NMRA: Submit articles and photos to the monthly magazine, and yes, even the annual calendar.
Hold an open house during local NMRA meets, and for local model railroad clubs
Hold neighborhood open houses for friends, family, work colleagues, high school groups, etc
Thank you for sharing. Yes this has been an excellent discussion and I’ve really enjoyed reading everyone’s opinions; they all have merit and certain validity. A real treat for sure.
I have no opinion other than how I enjoy the hobby; it’s in my photography and art and when I shoot my models or miniatures on my diorama/free-mo modules the o scale fine scale models look better than anything else I have access to except my 1:32 1 gauge which is 2 rail coincidentally and they are even larger. I refuse to shoot my 3 rail stuff as much as I enjoy them as well, but obviously in a different way, the couplers are way too big and the 3 rails spoil the effect completely, they absolutely look like toys to me while my fine scale models confuse the viewers into thinking it’s prototype. I need to make sure I have Easter eggs in my shoots, little tidbits that prove they are miniatures. I was trained and educated in film and model making for movies; this is my passion and I choose larger models to guarantee the effect; smaller scales don’t play as well in the light; although they can work, I prefer 1/48. And when I paint 🎨 or illustrate my trains on canvas I don’t paint in 3 rails on a K28 sitting in the roadhouse, it doesn’t make sense to me to make it 3 rail; my paintings imitate reality.
So I guess my opinion is, I prefer the 2 rail because it looks like the real thing to me; I’m an established rail photographer with clients such as BNSF and Union Pacific and I just don’t see giant couplers that are 2 or 3 times oversized and the tracks I walk are comprised of 2 rails, not three; I don’t shoot subways. Well, that’s my opinion and I’ll go full time HO long before I ever go to 3 rail, I just don’t like it. Sorry 🤷♂️ That’s my OPINION.
A brief note to the moderators of OGR, the following images, paintings, miniature photos, and full size train pictures are mine; I took and I own them and I am honored to share them with the OGR community. Fact
That name carried a lot baggage; decades of it......and a lot of negative perceptions real and imaginary.
Yes, that is the reason for rebranding. I think that OSC needs to drop all references to OSK on the web and in its literature. Who cares that Facebook is now called Meta? I don't know anyone who says that they have a Meta account.
That I knew about; they also had a public forum that ~10 people participated in/on/at......either no one knew about it or no one wanted it, or both.
I think that OSC would be better served by directing people to this forum or to other OS2R more active discussions on the internet.I understand that Facebook has some active groups but I don't have a Facebook account.
Never heard of it; announced anywhere?
The Coupler was sent to all OSC members. I'll see if I can find a link. I am unsure if it is going to be member only newsletter or made public.
Thought standards already existed? And, this new national standard will be made available?
I am uncertain when the standards will become available. I think that the people working on the standard feel that the existing standards are dated and need a refresh.
Good luck with that - O scale vendors trying to sell to non O scale modelers seems like a lovely way for vendors to lose money and find that a waste of their time and money.
I bought my first 3rd Rail brass engine from the 3rd Rail table at a national train show in about 2006. I was a HO modeler at that time. I intended to display the model. I now have a fleet of 3rd Rail engines that I run on the G&O garden railroad. This is chicken and egg problem. If OS2R vendors only attend 2-rail shows they will have a limited but concentrated buying population. They may expand their market, however, if they attend multi-scale shows.
Oh, it was reborn as a private forum -- not visible to non-members. How does that reach anyone other than the choir or increase numbers, popularity, etc.?
OSC has to provide some exclusive member benefits. You are right, it doesn't help increase popularity. Again, I think that OSC would be better served by suggesting that OS2R modelers post on this forum.
Hopefully they will let us all know about these ideas.........
I am sure that they will as they are developed.
Never heard of them; again, not announced publicly so who knows, attends, etc. So where is this information? If it's all on the OSK website that's just reaching the choir members.
The Zoom meetings were for OSC members just as NMRA Zoom meetings are for their members. The best way to learn about everything is to join and participate in OSC activities.
Early stages.......... Seem like a lot of stuff behind the curtain.
I have been a NMRA member for a long time. This is the first time I have heard of their modular standards for O gauge. Do you know of any OS2R modular groups that I have built a modular railroad using these standards? NH Joe
Your modeling and photography is awesome. Thank you for sharing the photos with us. I left some of my favorite photos in this reply.
I took the CZ on my return trip from the March Meet to the SF Bay Area. You have really captured the beauty and feel of the Colorado scenery. I would love to see your work in person at a train show someday. NH Joe
I have had a chance to read the standards. They are an excellent beginning point. However, there are many gray areas. For example, the standards assume that people are going to build all the modules as a cohesive club. I think that if you want to to combine modules from throughout the country at a train show like HO Free-Mo does, then the standards will need to be more specific. I think that all modules should be wired for DCC. NH Joe
The problem with making locomotives that are convertible is not the part about making them in the first place, it is the part about paying upfront and then stocking the conversion parts for years and years. These manufacturers want nothing to do with the conversion parts business. How many conversion sets do you make when the locomotive is made in the first place because they are not going back and making runs of conversion sets 5 or 10 years down the road if they run out. These manufacturers really want nothing to do with a modeler that buys a 3-rail model off an auction site 5 or more years after it was originally produced and stock the conversion parts available to make it 2-rail model or vice-versa. The conversion kit has been taking up valuable warehouse space that has been heated/cooled for years-and-years only to probably sell the kit at a financial loss, just to get rid of it and free up some space. Do you honestly think that O Scale model train manufacturers are going to spend $$$ upfront on a run of conversion kits for future revenue that "might" happen when almost all of the models themselves produced today are Built to Order (BTO) so they have guaranteed revenue for their initial cash outlay?
Diesels locomotives are a little more generic in their wheelsets but when you start getting into diesel pilot designs for each model, you are pretty much needing to stock one-off custom diesel pilots for each diesel model. And forget about having multiple pilots (for diesels) painted in various colors to match the original model's paint scheme. Steam locomotives are on a whole other level when it comes to stocking conversion drivers and pilot wheels, trailing truck, tender wheels and pickup wipers, etc.
In the world of limited run O Scale models, it just isn't financially practical to invest money upfront in conversion kits for future revenue that "might someday" materialize. Companies like MTH and Atlas, that do multiple runs of the same models might be willing to support some of the more popular models but if they are already doing multiple runs of in both 2-Rail and 3-Rail of these popular models then conversion kits are moot for those models too.
They also had a public forum that ~10 people participated in/on/at......either no one knew about it or no one wanted it, or both.
Oh, it was reborn as a private forum -- not visible to non-members. How does that reach anyone other than the choir or increase numbers, popularity, etc.?
I joined that first Forum. To say it was as quiet as the grave would be an insult to graveyards!! It was also rather basic, you couldn't load more than one picture per post. I simply forgot about it after a few weeks.
Your second point there is also good. How does a "members only" Forum spread the word to anyone else??
The problem with making locomotives that are convertible is not the part about making them in the first place, it is the part about paying upfront and then stocking the conversion parts for years and years. These manufacturers want nothing to do with the conversion parts business.
Well, the solution there would be to not make "kits". Instead, make the parts at the same time as the rest of the locomotive and just throw them into the box. Use them or not, it's up to the purchaser. A smart purchaser will hold onto them because it may help resale value. Those would be the parts specific to that particular model. Parts common to most / all models, such as the wheelsets and couplers, could be sold separately to keep down the cost of the locomotive for the sake of the majority who do not intend to convert it. It would also mean the manufacturer need stock and supply only a handful of unique part numbers--or perhaps partner with NWSL or similar to provide them, so they need not stock them at all.
As you say, it would definitely be easier with diesels.
I am OSK member #7 - been there from the beginning, and have always paid my dues, even when my check got lost when used for a bookmark by a so-called membership manager.
The "new" website is still promoting a convention that was held a year ago. The new forum was dead from the gitgo. I never got an answer from the forum moderator when I asked if the forum was still active. If there's a new "Members only" forum, I've never been informed of it or invited to join it, so much for service to people who have supported OSK for many years. If there is a new newsletter (supposedly already on issue #2) why haven't I received it? Don't know where NH Joe got his info, but I haven't heard anything from the "Kings" in a long, long time.
Nickaix, that was how SHS did it in S gauge. Both highrail and scale wheels plus pilots were "in the box." Swapping is a simple 5 minute job, plus mounting two Kadee couplers on the scale pilots.. American Models makes the engines either scale or high rail, specified on purchase. Their diesels can be converted later with replacement wheelsets if desired. Its too hard to convert the steam engine drivers. I bought a lot of scale engines because in S they will run fine on all high rail track systems except original Gilbert and GarGraves track. Plus all engines and virtually all rolling stock made in S are 1/64th scale, only the detail level varies. In S, even the Lionel Legacy engines run on DCC right out of the box.
I think this would be much harder to implement in O gauge because of three rail. It would also only be meaningful to do with those models that are full 1/48 scale.
Well, the solution there would be to not make "kits". Instead, make the parts at the same time as the rest of the locomotive and just throw them into the box. Use them or not, it's up to the purchaser. A smart purchaser will hold onto them because it may help resale value. Those would be the parts specific to that particular model. Parts common to most / all models, such as the wheelsets and couplers, could be sold separately to keep down the cost of the locomotive for the sake of the majority who do not intend to convert it.
That's what S-Helper Service in S Scale did with their freight cars and diesels over 20 years ago.
The locomotives came standard with Hirail wheels and Flyer compatible couplers with and electronic e-unit installed, plus a DCC shorting plug. The switchers required use supplied Kadees, the F-Units included Kadee compatible couplers in the box.
The user could change the wheels, add his own Kadees and install his preferred DCC or the shorting plug for conventional DC operation.
Freight cars came equipped scale wheels that the user could install, along with his own Kadee couplers.
$1200 seems like too much for an MTH Hudson that long ago. The MSRP was $999.
You are absolutely right but things were a lot different then. The Hudson was sold out everywhere. eBay was in its infancy. Folks didn’t realize eventually these things would have a second or third run and the prices would drop for the older run. That was the LHS price and I regret that I bought it but I will always like that engine as it was my first detailed scale locomotive.
I am OSK member #7 - been there from the beginning, and have always paid my dues, even when my check got lost when used for a bookmark by a so-called membership manager.
The "new" website is still promoting a convention that was held a year ago. The new forum was dead from the gitgo. I never got an answer from the forum moderator when I asked if the forum was still active. If there's a new "Members only" forum, I've never been informed of it or invited to join it, so much for service to people who have supported OSK for many years. If there is a new newsletter (supposedly already on issue #2) why haven't I received it? Don't know where NH Joe got his info, but I haven't heard anything from the "Kings" in a long, long time.
I totally agree that the website needs tender loving care and more of it. It shouldn't be promoting the Denver 2021 convention that has sailed into history.
I am getting my information from the OSC literature that was distributed at the March Meet.
All OSK members were supposed to get a pdf copy of The Coupler by email. I have attached The Coupler pdf file for anyone who wants to read it. This is issue #1.
The problem with making locomotives that are convertible is not the part about making them in the first place, it is the part about paying upfront and then stocking the conversion parts for years and years. These manufacturers want nothing to do with the conversion parts business. How many conversion sets do you make when the locomotive is made in the first place because they are not going back and making runs of conversion sets 5 or 10 years down the road if they run out. These manufacturers really want nothing to do with a modeler that buys a 3-rail model off an auction site 5 or more years after it was originally produced and stock the conversion parts available to make it 2-rail model or vice-versa. The conversion kit has been taking up valuable warehouse space that has been heated/cooled for years-and-years only to probably sell the kit at a financial loss, just to get rid of it and free up some space. Do you honestly think that O Scale model train manufacturers are going to spend $$$ upfront on a run of conversion kits for future revenue that "might" happen when almost all of the models themselves produced today are Built to Order (BTO) so they have guaranteed revenue for their initial cash outlay?
I don't want them to keep them stocked - I want them to put them in the box with the locomotive.
1 SKU - 2 potential buyers. Seems like a winner to me.
P.S. the resale value of the engine goes up if people take care of it and keep the conversion parts for the next guy.
There is a kind of chicken and egg thing here, one of the things people highlighted was that 2 rail O in terms of engines especially is limited compared to three rail O. Problem is, how do you get more people to enter that sphere when there are relative few people in 2 rail O? I liked what the poster talking about what his club is doing, and some of what they are doing I think is important.
A big recommendation? The NMRA might be a national organization and obviously they have set standards in O, including proto 48, but a lot of the focus there is N and HO...how many layouts when an NMRA convention happens that people can visit are O? I am not a member, but when I have seen the websites of NMRA conventions, they rarely have O gauge layouts (and that could be my perception). Maybe try to work with them, in conjunction with other clubs, to see if they would be willing to help promote 2 rail O more, maybe have events at NMRA events featuring 2 rail O, have someone talk it up. People have left HO and N for 3 rail O, why not 2 rail O?
I like what the poster said he was doing with their website, I think having information on 2 rail O is huge.
A big one? Trying to counter the myths. Example? The horrors of reversing loops (gee, doesn't stop HO and N modellers), talk about modern polarity devices.
That you need a lot of space for 2 rail scale. Put out what is available that can run in smaller radius curves (like 36" radius), that not everything needs larger radii (and point out in 3 rail O, that equipment that can technically requires 72" diameter track looks horrible doing it (the idea here being that even in 3 rail O, the big engines can require large diameter curves), show pictures of layouts that aren't huge but look good.
That 2 rail O equipment is scarce. Give a listing of manufacturers out there making 2 rail O equipment, and point out the obvious, that scale 3 rail rolling stock can be converted to scale operation relatively easy with swapping wheel sets and doing couplers; also of course highlight there is R to R equipment out there.
That the equipment is expensive. Point out that 3 rail scale equipment is expensive, then point out you can get items used that are in good condition. And also, that thanks to the DCC being standard, if an engine breaks it can be fixed. Can motors can be replaced, and if the DCC decoder breaks, guess what, you can replace it either with the original maker or another brand's dcc decoder (ie you won't have to worry a board is fried and the maker says "we don't have that any more"). Really want to get nasty? Point out that with legacy and dcs, the price tag on them has really gone through the roof.
Another big thing might be to get in touch with other groups (which I think the poster said they have), and put your heads together. This way not only is your club attending events and the like, other clubs are too. Have space on your website for links with videos or live cams (like NJ Hi Railers do with their layout) of other club's layouts, as well as your own, and see if they will be willing to do the same thing. It would be really great if you and the other clubs also had video and pictures of people's own layouts, showing what can be done with smaller layouts.
Okay, but then what about trying to get O and N modelers to move up? Again, how many people do you read about or even on here, say "I used to be in N or HO, but it got too small for my vision?". Lot of those folks end up in 3 rail O, maybe if you catch them when they are just finding the smaller scale doesn't work, they will think of 2 rail instead of 3. Highlight it is easier to work on details on an O gauge project, little easier to get the engines on the track, whole raft of things that getting older makes difficult.
One of the reasons for all this is a lot of people could be getting into 3 rail O because to them, that is O, they think O=lionel 3 rail (or MTH, etc), they don't even know 2 rail O really exists, so having club or personal websites as info sites is huge.
I am not a 2 rail modeler (well, okay, given where my 3 rail layout is, not really modeling that yet either!), but I can appreciate what folks in that realm are hoping for.
There is also something I have observed that I wish/hope people watch out for. If the intent is to get people interested in 2 rail O, make them think about it, when answering questions, even the ones you are tired of answering, don't get snarky if someone raises objections. In the threads on here (not just this one) I have read over the years, some of the responses to when people bring up space needed, the reverse loop thing, etc, get testy or snarky, and that quite honestly won't get people interested. Saying "well, if all you want to do is play with toy trains on unrealistic track, go ahead" (and yes, I have heard that one said, and even written on boards; on here, more in tone then what is written) isn't going to be helpful getting people to try it. It comes off as denigrating people as troglodytes playing with toys unlike modelling with "real trains." Trying to get people to switch by proclaiming 2 rail O as 'the only real O gauge modeling' isn't going to go over well, it comes off as snobbish and boorish, rather than selling it as an attractive alternative.
I can understand frustration, but the answer to indifference or people not even attempting to think of going 2 rail, is to try and convince them to try it, show them what makes it great. And if other people are making the effort, give feedback on how you think what they are doing could be made better, telling them they are wasting their time or whatever doesn't achieve any goal *shrug*.
Erik, I agree with you 100%. My opinion is that I am recreating a specific time and place on the later years of the New York Central and the early years of Penn Central railroads. I have no interest in three rails, lobster claws, thick flanges, or code 215 rail. After working for forty-one years on the real railroad, I have a pretty good idea of what passes for real and what is a caricature of the railroad. Slot car speeds with toy trains chasing their tales might work for some, but not for me. If that is your thing fine, to each his own. To quote Mike Cougill "track is a model too" and I agree, the more realistic the better. Strictly my opinion! Doug
There used to be a section on the bay for 0 2 rail scale and 0 scale brass. It seems like it has gone away. When I got into 0 scale it was a good place to get an idea of what was available in one place and it kept me busy. Now it seems like a mixed up mess with the 3 rail stuff.
It looks like now you just have to be in the know, or get to the 0 scale 2 rail shows. They have the stuff. With a few exceptions, everything I have I could have bought 5 or 6 times over at the shows I've attended if I had wanted to.
There used to be a section on the bay for 0 2 rail scale and 0 scale brass. It seems like it has gone away. When I got into 0 scale it was a good place to get an idea of what was available in one place and it kept me busy. Now it seems like a mixed up mess with the 3 rail stuff.
It looks like now you just have to be in the know, or get to the 0 scale 2 rail shows. They have the stuff. With a few exceptions, everything I have I could have bought 5 or 6 times over at the shows I've attended if I had wanted to.
There used to be a section on the bay for 0 2 rail scale and 0 scale brass. It seems like it has gone away. When I got into 0 scale it was a good place to get an idea of what was available in one place and it kept me busy. Now it seems like a mixed up mess with the 3 rail stuff.
It looks like now you just have to be in the know, or get to the 0 scale 2 rail shows. They have the stuff. With a few exceptions, everything I have I could have bought 5 or 6 times over at the shows I've attended if I had wanted to.
When I go to eBay to look at O scale...I have to be specific in my search (unless I am not doing it right). I search for "O scale 2 rail" and O scale 2 rail brass". I still get some 3 rail stuff, but it's better than having to wade through all the O scale equipment.
When I go to eBay to look at O scale...I have to be specific in my search (unless I am not doing it right). I search for "O scale 2 rail" and O scale 2 rail brass". I still get some 3 rail stuff, but it's better than having to wade through all the O scale equipment.
That’s how I search for it, too, Andy. Never have any problems finding 2 rail items, although you’re right, it also brings up 3 rail stuff as well. I also sometimes specify “Atlas” or “Weaver”, etc., if I’m looking strictly for 2 rail items from a particular manufacturer.
It is indeed there. I'm not sure why my bookmark started taking me to a more general list. I've rebookmarked them. Thanks.
Re: the auction site...
A while back (maybe 4-5 months ago) they restructured the Model Trains sub-category of Toys and Hobbies. What used to be sub-sub categories like scale gauge, etc. are now "filters". I think you can drill down to like: Toys & Hobbies > Model Trains > Railroads & Trains > Locomotives. Then things like gauge, brand, type (Steam, Diesel, etc.) are filters. They used to be sub categories I think.
P.S. if you click "all filters" you can select "scale" 1:48, 1:43.5, 1:45 and also "rail system" 2-rail, 3-rail, etc.
That's what S-Helper Service in S Scale did with their freight cars and diesels over 20 years ago.
The locomotives came standard with Hirail wheels and Flyer compatible couplers with and electronic e-unit installed, plus a DCC shorting plug. The switchers required use supplied Kadees, the F-Units included Kadee compatible couplers in the box.
The user could change the wheels, add his own Kadees and install his preferred DCC or the shorting plug for conventional DC operation.
Freight cars came equipped scale wheels that the user could install, along with his own Kadee couplers.
Rusty
I agree 100%, that manuafacturers would not balk at this if you shift the onus of storage and the up front cost to the modeler, and not the manufacturer. However, now you have to convince every purchaser of a model to pay "even more" for an O scale locomotive. Looking through this thread, the cost of O scale was one of the top three objections to 2-Rail O scale and the bump in cost does not stop at producing the added items, it also applies to the packaging and shipping. Increased packaging size also translates to a bump in shipping volume/weight per item, which impacts overall cost as well.
Let's take the example in the photo above and ballpark the added cost to the modeler in a similar O scale loco and you could easily come up with an added cost of $50 per model due added parts, larger packagaing and added shipping volume (e.g. less models per container, so higher shipping cost) from Asia. Also remember that every part that goes into the box is profit center for the importer, e.g. Atlas, MTH, 3rd Rail, etc., so all the parts are marked up in the final price. Therefore, a $50 overall price increase may even be a little liberal on my part but for this example it makes a nice even number. Also consider that numbers are the key to getting a model built in the first place.
Therefore, are you going to get added buyers for adding higher cost but with added convenience of easy conversion for a fraction of the buyers that are going to actually use the replacement parts to supplement the buyers that you will now lose because the price jumped $50 for the same model that would be $50 less if you didn't force extra parts on them? Remember, Atlas, 3rd Rail, and to some extent, MTH already offer both 2R and 3R options right from the start at "reduced prices". The issue that you are trying to help with using a combined option is the aftermarket, which the manufacturers could really care less about since they don't make any money on the aftermarket and that is why they don't care to participate in this universal support from the get-go and would prefer to keep the prices as low as possible for the initial model options to keep the overall numbers produced as high as possible.
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