Why Not a J?

I would surely buy one. This gets my vote.

 

But remember, the J has smaller drivers, therefore the existing chassis out there wouldn't be able to utilized.

 

4449 would be awfully pretty as well.

I agree, I also think a die-cast J or Daylight should be a hit in S.  But, S in general seems to be under a dark cloud of "what works great in other scales doesn't work well in S."

 

Stretching a J boiler over an AM or Flyonel Northern chassis would produce an awkward looking locomotive that would probably not look a elegant as the real J does.

 

Believe it or not, trolling for a J has been tried twice: Once in the late 80's for around $500 (prior to all this command and sound stuff) and 6-7 years ago in lifetime brass for around $2200.

 

The resistance in the 80's was partially because the Flyer Northern in VG to E condition was going for around $200.  Plus, the market was more Flyer traditionalist than not, so if ACG didn't make it...   The manufacturer was also trying to reach a consensus by polling for features (smoke, choo-choo, scale or Flyer-like handrails, scale vs. Hirail wheels, AC/DC, etc.) and never reached one.

 

And of course, $2200 was quite a bit of scratch for the brass version for what would have been quite an impressive locomotive.  (I'll admit, and strongly considered plunking down a deposit on one.  I like the J, but it wasn't $2200 worth of love.)

 

Guess there's not that many N&W fans in S from either side of the track...  Too bad, with the 611 getting ready to return to the rails soon, it would be a perfect tie-in.

 

Rusty

 

 

 

 

Maybe Ron from American Models will unveil one at the next Spring S Spree next year in Cleveland.

 

Wishful thinking.

Yes, a 4449 would be pretty. If you haven't seen it, here's my example of what ACG might have made using existing tooling to do a Daylight Steam engine

The SP Sunbeam train actually had a similar engine, if you need a prototype!

I,m in for a 746!

Also hope they produce a 736 and 773 engine in "S"!

 

Thnks, Phil. 

I've said it before, I'll say it again, then shut up.  If any of our beloved S manufacturers really want to stir things up and bump their sales just issue nicely made, carefully detailed, conventionally controlled with bell, whistle, chuff, and smoke versions of the great streamlined steam engines that S has never had -- the NYC 2Oth Century, N&W 611, SP 4449, LV Black Diamond, Blue Goose, Forty-niner, Royal Blue (but to 21st century appearance standards) -- you get the picture.  Don't worry about cramming in all of your proprietary electronics (L & MTH) and I'm a bit of an OS geek with conventional, Legacy, and DCC.  Just get it right with AC at an attractive price (e.g. $500 MSRP).  Build these and we will come.  It's call Disruptive Innovation for any of you familiar with Clayton Christensen's innovation findings.  When the rules of the game become increasing prices for more features and functions than consumption and/or production can keep up with, then re-write the rules and tip things over by offering elegant simplicity at a lower price.  There are plenty of real life examples in his books.  I once hired his consulting arm to snap us out of a rut.  The S market is ripe for this kind of move.  Get 'er done.  

The AM Northern, AC with "limited sound" weighs in at $519.95.  DC, 20 bucks less.

 

I don't think you'd see any newly tooled "basic" big, die-cast steam locomotive with equivalent detailing for less than that.  Add maybe $100-$150 or so.

 

OK, the FlyerChief Berk is coming in at $350.  But add wire handrails, add the missing valve gear parts, steps on the tender and who knows what else and the cost for material and assembly start going up.  Probably come out to just north of $500 when done.  Assuming overall material and labor costs don't rise significantly in the mean time.

 

When I bought a second AM Northern (DC, scale w/20% discount) a couple of years ago, a wise man told me "You'll never see those for that price again."

 

He's probably right.

 

Rusty

Forget the electronics and the digital stuff, make it work on AC with an on and off switch.  And, $500 is way beyond my budget. 

 

PHM

The reason lionel and mth make stuff with all the bells and whistles is because it sells...if it did not, they would not make it.  The days of the masses wanting simple AC forward, neutral, reverse are disappearing.  The future of the hobby, the person that will sustain the hobby forward for the long term, from this point on, want some sort of control system. It is what it is.  

 

Ben

American Models built a chrome NYC J3 Hudson and he still has a few with chrome Budd cars. I have been told he doesn't plan to make any more of them.  With a little work and paint it would do what you want.  They sell for $425 without cars.  I found a good used one at York for $225.

Seems that way.  Still it would be nice to see something more affordable and simple.

 

PHM

We have to define "affordable."  If we're all waiting for a newly tooled S locomotive for 100 bucks, it's gonna be a long wait.

 

Well, there is the Flyer Docksider for $95...

 

The new AM RS11 is $250 for a single unit.(Made in U.S.A., decorated in China.) No sound, no smoke, no electro-couplers, 3 position electronic reverse.  AM's AC Pacific with smoke, mechanical chug and whistle/bell listed for $350-$400 when they were available.

 

The FlyerChief Berks are listing out at $350.  Electro-coupler, sound, smoke, basic command control with conventional operation by a selector switch.  It's beginning to look like a pretty good deal in comparison.  Granted, the Berks are probably being subsidized by the pre-sales of the Polar Express sets and Lionel's better "purchasing power" with the builders. 

 

I'd wager they'd be over $400 if it wasn't for the Polar Express.

 

Even in HO, the Ready-to-Roll Athearn F7A (You can't get any more simple than that) retails for $90. ($130 with a non-powered B.)  A far cry from the $12 I used to pay in the 1970's.

 

Rusty

If one is to ask for a N&W J, one also needs to request a reasonably appropriate set of passenger cars to go with ... in this case, smooth-sided streamliners in S. Without a convincing consist, the sales of the engine will suffer.

 

Bob

 

Was the J intended for passenger service only?

SP Cab-Forward, gets my support.

Cheers from Michigan

Gary

Generally, yes.

 

Some wound up in local freight service near the end.

 

Rusty

Been trying to post for two days, finally found a "work around" that works with dial-up (use "reply with quote"!)

Bob, good point about requiring a passenger car set. Granted, N&W used smooth-sided cars & I'd love to have some in S--the Shasta Daylight, which used PAs also used smooth sided cars & that's my childhood train. But, given the cost for tooling a loco, I think the AF cars painted maroon w/black roofs would look grand behind a J.

As to all the "Bells & Whistles" my Daylight painted RB type uses all period equpment, puffs smoke, choo-choos and has directional lighting even (I add a tender light & by wiring the reverse unit just so, the headlight dims a bit and the tender light comes on in reverse.

Not saying that Modern engines should use the old tech, but the amount of "features" now felt to be needed seems a bit excessive. Electro couplers especially!  Years ago I was running my Y-3 on a friends layout, and my sister came into the room--now she's not a train person by ANY means-- and I asked her what she thought of the sound effects, 'Sounds like a recording" was her response--she preferred the old ACG choo-choo units (but then that's what she grew up hearing when I ran my trains, so maybe that influenced her preference).

As to the PE sets, I find it very interesting that the complete PE set, with track & transformer is "street price" only a little more than the price of a single Berkshire Locomotive. I would think the individual locomotives would have to have more features to justify the price. OTOH, just the two add on cars are about 1/3 the price of the whole set!

Gary, I vote for a Cab-Forward too!!

i would buy an N&W hirail J in S, but only if it were done right, with 70" drivers and scale proportions.  i would have no interest in a J boiler grafted into an AF Northern chassis or an S version of the Lionel 746.

I like to think that the era of stretching or schrunching a steam locomotive boiler to fit an existing mechanism has past.

 

The FlyerChief Berkshires, although simplified, appear to have the proper dimensions.

 

Rusty

Yes, Lionel told me that the Berks have "proper" dimensions.  Lionel says scale, but of course to scale guys that is an incorrect term. I think the Hi Rail people will be very satisfied because of price.  Yes, the newest Berks are more pricey than the PE set but still cheap when compared to Legacy Steam of the recent past.

Be patient while watching this video:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7bAqpQL2NI

I love S. I don't understand it AT ALL, but I do love the trains. I would be in for one or two accurate J's if someone would make them and I don't even model the N&W. But who doesn't love a J?

 

There are so many die-cast steamers Lionel could knock out of the park if they chose to. The answer I got when I asked why they don't was simple... They make far more profit on O scale models, so why waste R&D dollars on S. Apparently S modelers as a whole are not willing to shell out $800-$1500 on die-cast steam with all the goodies, whereas O scale customers are.

 

I think that if Lionel would have released a FULL track system first and then brought out the high end engines they would have been more successful. I think they would have been able to entice more customers from other scales.

 

I was so excited a few years ago at the promise of S scale trains with all of the same features as their O scale cousins, but running on real 2 rail track. Unfortunately I think we may have seen the last of the high end S scale steam engines from Lionel. Perhaps I'm wrong though... I hope I am.

Seems to me the Challengers and Y3's were pretty well received.  The Y3's even from the scale guys willing to fork over another $500 to get the flanges turned down and wheels replaced.  So were the SD70's.  What probably caught them with their box flaps open was the thud created by the NS Heritage series.

 

I expect the current Circle L Ranch CEO wants faster a churn of Flyer, which ain't gonna happen overnight.  The S market isn't the O market, pure and simple.  They appear to be in a downward spiral with Flyer, some of which is self inflicted as far as my hazy crystal ball can see.

 

It's amazing how they could get the Y3's, SD70's and ES44's so right,(headlight location aside) then goof up on something as simple as freight car trucks.  We'll see how the FlyerChief Berks do, but I suspect they're one and done.

 

Circle L really needs to talk directly to S Gaugers, Scalers and especially the Flyer Faithful. American Models and the former SHS manage(d) to deal successfully with both ends and the middle of the S spectrum.

 

I would love to sing the praises of Flyer like I did with products like the SD70, but that seems more and more less likely.

 

Rusty

I wonder if the appeal of modern railroading is the cause of Lionels new hesitance. Steam engines and 2nd generation diesels sold fairly well with limited blowouts. Modern SD70s and ES44s are still being blown out. Heritage units aside, there are a limited amount of actual roadnames out there, some of them smaller roads with limited appeal. Modern reefers were not produced supposedly due to poor preorders and these are not BTOs but preorders from dealers recieving orders from the catalog or the dealers perception of what will sell. The cylindrical hoppers sold fairly well and faced limited blowouts and aside from the heritage series, the roadnames produced were varied and colorful. Most people I know never even knew about the scale wheel fiasco. The most modern motive power produced by AM is the SD60 which I believe is a late 2/3nd gen diesel. SHS never produced anything modern era. Since I model steam and 1st/2nd generation diesels, anything produced in that era draws my attention no matter who produces it.

 

Rich

From what I've observed, it's mostly the Heritage roads being blown out for the ES44's.  The regular non-heritage road names were marketed as "limited quantities available," essentially build to order.

 

The thing about the 57' reefers was they weren't cancelled when the preorders were tabulated after the deadline passed, but cancelled about a week or so before they were scheduled to be delivered.  Whether poor preorders resulted form the earlier truck fiasco or not, I couldn't say, but it seems that somebody was sitting on the information until the last possible moment.

 

The 57' reefers were a chance for Lionel to really build on the previous scale products and they muffed it.  I know S Gaugers that were looking forward to the 57' reefers, myself included.

 

What incentive is there to preorder products in the future as long as the specter of last minute cancellation exists?

 

Rusty

 

I think the reason Lionel (and MTH) are interested in S is because the O gauge market is tapped out. The market is saturated. It's hard to think of a prototype that hasn't been modeled by at least one of the major producers. Even obscure prototypes.  It is mind boggling the number of products Lionel makes in O every year (way more variety than the old Lionel Corporation ever made in the postwar period).  I think they realize their opportunities for growth in O are practically nonexistent (in fact, judging by prices on the used train market, growth may have already topped out).  S, even at a lower margin, is a relatively untapped market.