Why so few O Scale Structure Kits?

@Paul Kallus posted:

There's a fair amount of O scale kits available, you have to search for them. 25+ years ago, kits dominated in the magazines, and since the hobby has become more RTR, which is a good thing for those of us that it takes countless hours to glue something together. Unfortunately, there's not many RTR buildings that match the hi-rail segment, except for Woodland Scenics, which are very limited in variety. It's actually odd, Lionel puts out $2,000 highly detailed locomotives yet its building line looks like pre-school stuff, with a few exceptions.

I disagree. There are PLENTY of R.T.R. buildings out there. Thanks in large part to MTH filling that void. You also have Menards, Woodland Scenics, Lionel, then Bachman with the assembled Plasticville.

As I view beautifully senicked railroads in magazines and youtube vidos they must spend every spare moment working on their railroad for years. i'm just not that dedicated.

Very interesting topic/thread. Thanks.

I will show my ignorance here, but I don't understand why a built-up can't also be offered as a kit.

Here's why I am interested: many of the MTH buildings are O scale versions of older Life Like HO kits; the Belvedere Hotel, for instance. I use this example because, years ago, Art Curren published a book on kitbashing HO scale models and many of the source kits used this building. While it is possible to build his wedge-shaped factory from the MTH build-ups, it is very difficult. Just cutting the building apart results in a loss of detail, plus MTH uses very thick paint. The built up MTH brewery is another example of a former HO kit.

These buildings have lots of kitbashing possibilities and it seems to me that whoever now has the molds could offer at least a few of the built ups as kits. BTW, I am aware of Atlas' kits: I kitbashed a powerhouse from an Atlas engine house. (Thanks and a tip o' the hat to DennisB for the idea)

So, back to my original question. Why can't built ups - particularly plastic ones - be also offered in kit form?

SPACE:  A Korber 304 engine house, takes, at least,  4 ft X 6 ft.  Then add more space for the TT.   Dig deep enough on the Korber site, for printable full size templates. SPACE:  The BTS Cabin Creek Coal Tipple also 4' X 6'

@Jim Brenner posted:

Very interesting topic/thread. Thanks.

I will show my ignorance here, but I don't understand why a built-up can't also be offered as a kit.

Here's why I am interested: many of the MTH buildings are O scale versions of older Life Like HO kits; the Belvedere Hotel, for instance. I use this example because, years ago, Art Curren published a book on kitbashing HO scale models and many of the source kits used this building. While it is possible to build his wedge-shaped factory from the MTH build-ups, it is very difficult. Just cutting the building apart results in a loss of detail, plus MTH uses very thick paint. The built up MTH brewery is another example of a former HO kit.

These buildings have lots of kitbashing possibilities and it seems to me that whoever now has the molds could offer at least a few of the built ups as kits. BTW, I am aware of Atlas' kits: I kitbashed a powerhouse from an Atlas engine house. (Thanks and a tip o' the hat to DennisB for the idea)

So, back to my original question. Why can't built ups - particularly plastic ones - be also offered in kit form?

The answer is a kit is not simply the parts used in assembly put in a box ( and I am talking a standard plastic kits here, craftsmen kits are a totally different beast, they are basically raw materials in a box, it is closer to scratch building then kit building.). Kits usually have the parts on casting sprues with id #s or some such. The parts are designed to allow relatively easy assembly for a person at home, something they don't do in manufacturing where the ppl assembling know it well. Then too having instructions.  Obviously a lot of the parts are the same, but they are presented differently.

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

I disagree. There are PLENTY of R.T.R. buildings out there. Thanks in large part to MTH filling that void. You also have Menards, Woodland Scenics, Lionel, then Bachman with the assembled Plasticville.

Well, yes and no.  What both MTH and Lionel (to a greater degree MTH) do is take a structure and give it a variety of different details - signs, trim, and paint.  It's the same building with just a few minor modifications.  Other manufacturers do the same.

What drives me nuts (maybe it's just a short putt ) is when you see manufacturers duplicating each other's buildings.  I mean, really? 

George

At least I had time to do with thing this evening...one segment test print of the bridge overpass up-scale.

Haven't decided on the finals yet.  Thinking of using the CAD template as the basis to model a real cement underpass in Memphis, TN.  Add a sidewalk and make it for cars instead.

Anthony

@Jim Brenner posted:

Very interesting topic/thread. Thanks.

I will show my ignorance here, but I don't understand why a built-up can't also be offered as a kit.

Here's why I am interested: many of the MTH buildings are O scale versions of older Life Like HO kits; the Belvedere Hotel, for instance. I use this example because, years ago, Art Curren published a book on kitbashing HO scale models and many of the source kits used this building. While it is possible to build his wedge-shaped factory from the MTH build-ups, it is very difficult. Just cutting the building apart results in a loss of detail, plus MTH uses very thick paint. The built up MTH brewery is another example of a former HO kit.

These buildings have lots of kitbashing possibilities and it seems to me that whoever now has the molds could offer at least a few of the built ups as kits. BTW, I am aware of Atlas' kits: I kitbashed a powerhouse from an Atlas engine house. (Thanks and a tip o' the hat to DennisB for the idea)

So, back to my original question. Why can't built ups - particularly plastic ones - be also offered in kit form?

Jim,

The MTH buildings typically are injection molded in a floor by floor method such that each floor is a Single piece. Kits on the other hand are designed to be flat packed with each wall as a part.  The box for the parts for a typical MTH building would be as large or larger than a built up structure.  No real savings.

Closest building is a station joined to a switch tower.  Both had heat warping and were 'under the table' at a swap meet.  John

Yes, the volume of kits available in HO is astounding, but we still have plenty of options in O scale.   In the 10 years since I started in O scale (3RS) I have bought building kits from these manufacturers.  Many were manufactured in the last 10 years, some were old stock.

Molded Plastic/Resin Kits:  

Lionel

Korber

Atlas

Ameri-towne

Woodland Scenics

Design Preservation Models (DPM)

IHC

Model Tech Studios

Styrene Craftsman Kits:

Twin Whistle Sign and Kit Company

Plaster Kits:

Downtown Deco

Laser cut Wood Kits:

River Leaf Models

Bar Mills

Banta Models

Altoona Model Works

Laser Kit

Wit and Wisdom Models

Wood Craftsman Kits:

Suncoast Models

Quality Craft

Gloor Craft

Lehigh Valley Models (now K&P Brick & Building)

BTS

Not yet purchased:

Blair Line

Berkshire Valley Models

Laser Art Structures

Thomas Yorke

CC Crow

FOS Scale Models

Minuteman Scale Models

American Model Builders

As someone has already pointed out, there is enough out there to keep you busy.

If your LHS or Forum Sponsor does not carry a line of kits, try Model Structures Inc.  They sell a variety of kits and will even finish them for a fee.

Bob

Has anyone pointed out the Scenery Source List that's at the top of this forum section yet?

Quite a list of structure kit sources listed there and that list is far from complete.

Something to consider - as you discuss O "scale" buildings...

Alot of O scale buildings are "selectively compressed" down to S scale dimensions - and I don't mean Plasticville.

As example -  The Ameritowne buildings in O scale would be 24 x 24.  In St. Louis where I live, a residential lot was 27' with a 24' building frontage, allowing for a 3' side walkway.  Commercial buildings do not follow residential at all - 24' would be a very small commercial front.  In S scale, Ameritowne buidings have a 32' commercial front-  far more common a size.

Likewise - prior to the 1950s, average ceiling height was around 13'. With limited electricity, you needed larger ceilings to allow for larger windows to allow in more light.  Ceiling heights varied from 10-20' with 12'-14' being the most common.  Very different from today's 8-9' ceilings.

Ameritowne buildings are reported as 9" high - but a portion of that is cornice. So let's say 8".  In 1:48, that would make for 10' ceilings.  8" = 32' - 2' for floor joists. Certainly in the range - BUT -  In S Scale, 8' = 42' - 2' for floor joists =  13.3' ceilings. 

So using Ameritowne as an example, these are either very small O scale buildings or they are  S scale buildings with O scale doors.  Same is true for most O scale buildings.  Selective compression is necessary to make O work on layouts.

Jacobpaul81-Thanks for pointing this out. There was another entry that made this point and I believe it is something to consider and relevant to the topic.

The topic, as I understand it, is not about how many O Scale kits are available, which is what I see in a few entries. The topic is more about the type of structures available. I see listings of manufacturers who produce kits and buildings in O Scale. Also it was again pointed out that there is a whole page dedicated to O Scale scenery items including buildings and structures. I must mention that some of those are no longer in business and some no longer produce much in O Scale. That's what auctions, swaps meets, and train shows are for right?

There was just a posting where a young man changed his Menard's Arby's into a Chic Fil la. Why did he have to do that? Because there are none commercially available. Menard's seems to be the only company that is moving forward with some modern buildings. For the sake of this topic, let's say modern era  buildings  are those from the last 20-30 years. Who makes detailed, modern gas stations, restaurants, drug stores, grocery stores, dollar stores such as Dollar General or Family Dollar, etc. If those are available in O Scale please forgive me for my ignorance, I was just not aware. As far as I know they DON'T exist. To address the fact that many of our O Scale prefabricated buildings have dimensions closer to S Scale, some of the type of buildings I mentioned wouldn't require a large footprint. Those that would could simply be compressed but give a good representation which is what many are trying to exhibit.

The author of this thread showed photos of some modern infrastructure kits made by Walthers. Though a few exist in O scale(not by Walthers), there certainly aren't the choices available that the smaller scales enjoy. Again, I recognize that we have plenty of buildings to choose from but what era are they from? I understand several of them can be incorporated and frankly should be to create a more convincing layout. However, if you ONLY had those buildings on your layout what era would you be representing?

So again, I understand that we can kit-bash and build whatever it is we desire to have on our layouts. However, the topic of this thread is not, "Why so few O Scale Structure Kits and What can we do about it?" The answer to that has been stated several times in the thread. To be honest, it was even pointed out that this thread wasn't even necessarily about buildings but somehow went that direction. I have no clue how that happened, lol. For the sake of conversation and extending the topic a bit, though we can agree that there are many O Scale buildings available as kits and built-ups. However, how many of them are designated for the modern era and would be appropriate for a layout running modern diesels?

Dave

@luvindemtrains posted:

There was just a posting where a young man changed his Menard's Arby's into a Chic fa le. Why did he have to do that? Because there are none commercially available.

Throughout model railroading history in all scales, modelers have been "rebranding" buildings to something that suits their preferences.

He even noted that when the Arby's was announced, he'd like to get one and make a Chick Fil A.

It's impossible for manufacturers to make everything for everybody, particularly if licensing is involved.  Or do model railroaders now expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter?

Rusty

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

Selective compression is necessary to make O work on layouts.

Necessary?  No, not at all.

Frequently done - yes.

@luvindemtrains posted:

Jacobpaul81-Thanks for pointing this out. There was another entry that made this point and I believe it is something to consider and relevant to the topic.

The topic, as I understand it, is not about how many O Scale kits are available, which is what I see in a few entries. The topic is more about the type of structures available. I see listings of manufacturers who produce kits and buildings in O Scale. Also it was again pointed out that there is a whole page dedicated to O Scale scenery items including buildings and structures. I must mention that some of those are no longer in business and some no longer produce much in O Scale. That's what auctions, swaps meets, and train shows are for right?

There was just a posting where a young man changed his Menard's Arby's into a Chic fa le. Why did he have to do that? Because there are none commercially available. Menard's seems to be the only company that is moving forward with some modern buildings. For the sake of this topic, let's say modern era  buildings  are those from the last 20-30 years. Who makes detailed, modern gas stations, restaurants, drug stores, grocery stores, dollar stores such as Dollar General or Family Dollar, etc. If those are available in O Scale please forgive me for my ignorance, I was just not aware. As far as I know they DON'T exist. To address the fact that many of our O Scale prefabricated buildings have dimensions closer to S Scale, some of the type of buildings I mentioned wouldn't require a large footprint. Those that would could simply be compressed but give a good representation which is what many are trying to exhibit.

The author of this thread showed photos of some modern infrastructure kits made by Walthers. Though a few exist in O scale(not by Walthers), there certainly aren't the choices available that the smaller scales enjoy. Again, I recognize that we have plenty of buildings to choose from but what era are they from? I understand several of them can be incorporated and frankly should be to create a more convincing layout. However, if you ONLY had those buildings on your layout what era would you be representing?

So again, I understand that we can kit-bash and build whatever it is we desire to have on our layouts. However, the topic of this thread is not, "Why so few O Scale Structure Kits and What can we do about it?" The answer to that has been stated several times in the thread. To be honest, it was even pointed out that this thread wasn't even necessarily about buildings but somehow went that direction. I have no clue how that happened, lol. For the sake of conversation and extending the topic a bit, though we can agree that there are many O Scale buildings available as kits and built-ups, how many of them are designated for the modern era and would be appropriate for a layout running modern diesels?

Dave

If you scroll back - you'd see - I pointed it out.  ;P

Rusty Traque,

I agree with your statement. It is very true that modelers have been rebranding models to suit their needs. This ties in with scratch-building, modifying, and kit-bashing. This however is not what the topic is about.

I also saw where the young man stated he was going to change his Arby's building when the announcement was initially made. He would not have had to state and actually do this if someone had a commercially available Chic Fil A in O Scale.

I do agree that it may be impossible for manufacturers to make everything for everyone. However, the point is the attempt is being made in smaller scales to do that. Do you believe that O Scalers wouldn't take advantage of the choices , just as HO/N modelers do, if we had them? I have heard the licensing thing before. Is licensing different for O scale than it is for HO? Again, I may not understand that side of things if there is a difference.

I'm trying to be very transparent with the responses I give. I personally, enjoy the little kit-bashing, etc. that I do. Even if every structure or building was commercially available, there still would be other aspects of the hobby that one has to "create", especially if one wants their layout to be more unique. I also believe that part of the fun is creating your own. However that is not what this topic is about. It is about what is commercially available and based on the author's photos, what eras we have to choose from.  I stand on O scale has a deficiency in commercially available modern structures/buildings.

Dave

Even in HO and N building kits have become a smaller market, ready to go has become a big part of the market, time being a big factor from what I understand.

In terms of why they don't build the same thing in O, the answer is the cost. Tooling for an O scale structure is different than HO or N so most of the cost of creating an O scale structure is absorbed by O gauge sales.  O gauge is dwarfed in size by HO and N scale market. So even assuming the costs to make an HO scale and O scale kit is the same, in HO it might be spread over several thousand units sold, in O it might be 100.If the production cost was 100,000 dollars, for HO that would be 50/unit@2000 units. For O it would be 1k/unit@100 units. Obviously this is a hypothetical, but it shows the impact of size of market ( and yes, it could be that O would sell 200 units, so would be 500 per unit).

People are assuming that O is this big market, it isn't. Not to mention that a lot of ppl prefer rtr.

One other note,I think when people talk about kits, they aren't talking craftsmen kits,which some if the manufacturers in that list are,small volume mom and pop kits that are $$$, they mean more mass produced kits a Lionel,mth,etc would come out with.

In terms of modern buildings I think a lot of that is because a lot of ppl in the hobby tend to model older eras, especially the transition era that saw both diesel and steam. This could be changing as newer modelers who grew up in the modern era want to model current railroading, but when I look at HO and N my impression is that it is the same way, lot more older structures that modern ones as a ratio.

One of the other reasons for older structures is that they are using tooling that has been around a while to produce them. A modern building kit would be new tooling cost and risk they can't make back the cost,whereas an old reliable has been paid for and depreciated, so cost of tooling likely will be little at this point.

So the size of the O gauge market and the trend towards rtr in general is going to mean a relative lack of kits,especially new ones.

bigkid,

It all makes sense. TIME is huge! What are many if not all inventions for...in some way, form, or fashion to save TIME. I also agree, that many if not most O scalers are of the age where the kits and buildings that are available are appropriate for what they model. Another observation is that many base their modeling on what is commercially available. Which in some cases may have not been their first choice.  The question becomes what about the younger generation of modelers or even those of us not at retirement age that want a little of the modern? Based on your response, there's just not enough of us for the market to take a chance and of course expense is always a factor. This could be the answer to the title of the thread. Ultimately this pushes those of us to a few other options. Build it ourselves, make a second choice of the era we want to model, go to another scale, or completely leave the hobby. None of which was the first choice.

Another fact to point out is that at one time all commercially available structures/buildings were "modern" and clearly were manufactured.

There will come a time when the history of the fallen flags and vintage railroading is not at all relevant or more directly stated, interesting, to a generation. Our connection to it now is some of us were around to see them or had the previous generation tell us about them. I posted earlier that we needed a "carrot" to bring the younger generation in. The train manufacturers are doing a great job as there is a respectable amount of modern locomotives and rolling stock. A new modeler can say, "Yeah, I've seen that train at the railroad crossing or when I was driving on the freeway". However, they can't always say that about the buildings and non-train surroundings. This whole thing ultimately ties into what the future of O Scale modeling will be. I know, another topic completely. I'm optimistic but concerned.

Dave

While there might be a growing number of "modern" buildings along railroad tracks, even in 2021 - the majority of trackside buildings were built during the steam era from 1900-1960.  Even in cases where railroads are servicing large industries - the generally are passing through old downtowns to do that work.  Keep that in mind while planning your "modern" layout. 

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

While there might be a growing number of "modern" buildings along railroad tracks, even in 2021 - the majority of trackside buildings were built during the steam era from 1900-1960.  Even in cases where railroads are servicing large industries - the generally are passing through old downtowns to do that work.  Keep that in mind while planning your "modern" layout.

Just to reiterate, I mentioned that the Woodland Scenic buildings would be good for nostalgic area layouts (circa. 1957) or historic downtown areas.  I had originally envisioned a Main Avenue running the cross length of my initial layout that used these WS commercial buildings on one section and then, as it expanded out, it would start using Menard's and MTH commercial buildings, with MTH more in the mid area.

If I was really good at modeling buildings, I would actually build out many of the spaces in downtown Asheville, NC...at the very least the facades.  I know that River Leaf Models has the WoolWorth's but the one in Asheville is truly awe inspiring.

Anthony

To those who might find it of interest, the Walther's Urban Overpass Bridge kit (technically speaking, more of an underpass) is circa. 1912 to 1917.  It is not "accurate" but only someone who has absorbed numerous photos of these cement bridges or made a study of them, would be aware of that fact.  Also, the supports were most likely modeled from a bridge separate and distinct from the one used for the railing.

These bridges are very much still in use today.  There are many in Memphis, TN.  However, there is a very real hazard from falling cement pieces at this point in time.

Anthony

@catnap posted:

There are a lot of O scale building kits but most of those kits are appropriate for a 1930's to 1950's theme. There is next to nothing when it comes to anything remotely modern like strip malls, Walmart's, CVS's, restaurants, gas stations, etc.

In HO scale, the diesel era is far more popular than steam so you see those types of structures in abundance. O scale leans more towards nostalgia so the types of kits and preassembled buildings reflect that. Woodland Scenics makes some really nice stuff, most recently a substation so maybe they are the best bet for more contemporary structures in O scale.

Well Menards make a bunch of R T R modern buildings and korber is continuing the Pecos River Brass preformed concrete line. Currently while I reside near "warehouse central" it appears todays industries will be carved out of basic rectangular preformed concrete box structures that can easily be duplicated with white foamcore and window and door cut outs!

I have found that there are quite a few choices out there for O scale model kits.   I just used my good friend, "Google"  LOL...  I will link a few that I have found.   The problem that I am running into is the time that it takes to construct a good kit.   I have purchased quite a few and now I just stare and wonder where am I going to find time to put these together, paint and decal to really look nice.. I have the Korber  #916 General light and power kit that is huge.  I have a mine kit that is also huge. Its called the Leaverite mine that was an exclusive kit made for Caboose hobbies in Colorado. 

https://wildwestmodels.com/index.html

http://www.stoneycreekdesigns.com/

https://www.laserartstructures.com/

https://www.downtowndeco.com/site/  I have quite a few kits from this company as well.

https://mrmuffinstrains.com/   they sell Korber kits. 

This should get you started and put a dent in your bank account as well.

@FM Trainmaster posted:

I have found that there are quite a few choices out there for O scale model kits.   I just used my good friend, "Google"  LOL...  I will link a few that I have found.   The problem that I am running into is the time that it takes to construct a good kit.   I have purchased quite a few and now I just stare and wonder where am I going to find time to put these together, paint and decal to really look nice.. I have the Korber  #916 General light and power kit that is huge.  I have a mine kit that is also huge. Its called the Leaverite mine that was an exclusive kit made for Caboose hobbies in Colorado.

Just to reiterate, it's not the lack of buildings that's an issue.  It's a lack of supporting structures.  Go to TrainWorld and do a search for "Walthers kits".  If that doesn't shock you into the realization of what this topic's initial focus is about, well then, I don't think nothing else will.

It should be known, at this point, I'm at a stage where kits are somewhat meaningless, except for things like bricks walls and similar or where I need the kit for measurements.  All I really need at this point is a good photo (or hopefully photos).  And, then, I work my magic:

All that remains now is to tweak the 3D print, mold and cast process.  (There is also an issue with finding spray paint with a fine bump texture for HO scale but I'll worry about that later.)

Anthony

P.S. I loathe Korber kits.