Thought I'd share this interesting and informative video link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwjwePe-HmA - with everyone. Hope you enjoy it and find it as interesting and informative as I did.
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Extremely informative video.
Great pictures and videos of trains as well.
Thank you for the link.
Chief Bob (Retired) 
My understanding is that AMTRAK is prohibited law to exercise indepentent pricing of seats, such as an airline does. They have a minimum price they must charge.
Tommy posted:My understanding is that AMTRAK is prohibited law to exercise indepentent pricing of seats, such as an airline does. They have a minimum price they must charge.
If that's the case, it's just one more example of the government favoring one industry at the expense of another. I get it, we must move forward with the most efficient forms of transportation and the newest technology. But I don't think highways with millions of trucks and airplanes are more efficient than railroads. Yet, as I understand it, the railroads paid taxes to build both. So who was or is supporting the railroads ?
Just had time to watch the video. I now understand the ticketing costs. However, as always, the cost of labor gets an up front seat when it comes to pointing out why things are expensive. I resent the implication.
My wife and myself travel exclusively by train always with bedroom accommodations w a private bath. We have been to Chicago, New Orleans, Orlando/Sanford, Denver,Omaha, & Seattle. Travel via Amtrak long distance is expensive, especially when you book a sleeper. There are five pricing buckets that Amtrak uses and these are based on current sales, sales history for the train, time of year/holidays and rate of sales. Its a complex formula that varies from month to month and days of the week. To answer the question of why it is so expensive; there is only one nationwide rail passenger system left and its Amtrak. Years ago you had a choice of many trains owned by private Railroad companies to take from city to city. There is no longer competition for the little business left. Blame the American public for the low demand. We stopped flying about 15 years ago and will never fly again. Air travel is congested, dirty, unhealthy, and the TSA treats air passengers worse than convicts. Rail travel is spacious, relaxing, fun and enjoyable. We travel as ladies and gentlemen do, not like an animal on an airplane
Dennis: Well stated! I also gave up flying in 2000!
A few years back. Amtrak had a special round trip from Ann Arbor to Chicago for 5 dollars in Feb. March time frame... I went twice 
and took the kids.
While I think that train tickets on the whole can be expensive, there are times when I find a discounted rate or Amtrak will run a special package, like the one to New York to see the Radio City Christmas Spectacular.
A few times I've gone from Philadelphia to Baltimore when special rates are run, and I paid less than I would have in gas, toll and aggravation sitting in the car (took the SEPTA Regional Rail from Ambler, PA to 30th Street Station those times as well). Couple that with taking the free bus that goes through Baltimore, I made out rather well spending the day in Baltimore, catching an Orioles game and going back home.
If it were up to me, I'd choose the train for most of my travel. There are times when ticket prices just don't work out.
Without looking at the link, I'm going to guess this is Wendover Productions, of "Why Trains Suck in America" fame?
Have a look at their videos on airlines, do they seem as even-handed with those?
---PCJ
Just had time to watch the video. I now understand the ticketing costs. However, as always, the cost of labor gets an up front seat when it comes to pointing out why things are expensive. I resent the implication.
What is there to resent?
Is it unusual for labor to be the major cost of a product or service?
I don't think so.
I would like to travel from Ft Myers Fl to San francisco or San Diego but to do so I would have to first go to Chicago before heading west... there are no trains from Fl directly out west.
C W Burfle posted:Just had time to watch the video. I now understand the ticketing costs. However, as always, the cost of labor gets an up front seat when it comes to pointing out why things are expensive. I resent the implication.
What is there to resent?
Is it unusual for labor to be the major cost of a product or service?
I don't think so.
I think it has more to the common implication that if it weren't for those pesky unions, such services would be cheap for the end user.
---PCJ
C W Burfle posted:Just had time to watch the video. I now understand the ticketing costs. However, as always, the cost of labor gets an up front seat when it comes to pointing out why things are expensive. I resent the implication.
What is there to resent?
Is it unusual for labor to be the major cost of a product or service?
I don't think so.
Why is it that labor gets the blame. There are other factors involved. Like the salaries CEO get which are 300 to 400 times what the average wage earner gets who works for the company. Compare that to the difference 40-50 years ago when that ratio was 30-35 to 1.
I resent the fact that labor always gets the blame !!!!!
When we finally make the move to driverless transportation, train travel will be practically free. (Sarcasm off)
RailRide posted:C W Burfle posted:Just had time to watch the video. I now understand the ticketing costs. However, as always, the cost of labor gets an up front seat when it comes to pointing out why things are expensive. I resent the implication.
What is there to resent?
Is it unusual for labor to be the major cost of a product or service?
I don't think so.I think it has more to the common implication that if it weren't for those pesky unions, such services would be cheap for the end user.
---PCJ
An Amtrak engineer gets paid almost the same as an engineer on the freight railroads. The average onboard service person Porters/SCA's , dining car personnel/chef, conductors can make anywhere from $43,000 to $70,000. An Amtrak Long Distance train usually has about 10 onboard service people. We must also remember that except for the NE corridor Amtrak pays millions to the freight railroads to use their tracks. Compared to total ticket revenue, Amtrak loses money but not that much when compared to a percentage of sales. It accounts for about 2-3% of the total US Transportation budget, the highways/roads, Airports, road bridges, road tunnels account for 97%.
I don't blame the cost of labor as the sole reason why riding a train is so expensive. I blame the unfair advantage given to the highway and air transportation modes for the last 70 years. Many believe passenger rail should pay its own way. Why? The highway and air modes don't and never have. Some years ago I did a little research and found that gas taxes and vehicle registrations paid less than 60% of what is required to build and maintain roads and highways. And I am pretty confident this funding gap has grown. If the airlines had to pay for all of the airport and air infrastructure costs there would be no private carriers. We would probably have a state airline. Amflite?
Where would passenger rail be today if it had been operating on a more level field with highway and air modes. For one, we would probably have much more of our rail system double tracked enabling better efficiency for both passenger and freight and benefitting our overall economy and even national defense.
But I am optimistic about the future of passenger rail. Mainly because, as has been mentioned here, people are fed up with air travel and highway travel will get even more congested, stressful, and expensive (tolls, etc). People will start looking for more options weighing their individual need balance for comfort, speed and cost. People will rediscover rail travel. And with more people opting for the comfort of rail we will see new technological rail innovations and improved economy of scale.
Some years ago I did a little research and found that gas taxes and vehicle registrations paid less than 60% of what is required to build and maintain roads and highways.
What was true some years ago may or may not be true today.
Lets say that it is.
What percentage of the costs to operate Amtrak do the fares pay?
What percentage of the population rides in cars and/or busses on those roads?
What percentage of the population rides the train?
I use roads on a daily basis, some days more than others.
I have never ridden a train on a daily basis. On those occasions when I did travel by trains, I almost certainly used a road to get to the train.
It's probably been more than five years since I've been on a train at all.
If passenger rail travel were profitable, Amtrak would not exist. People don't want to wait for their microwave to warm up their coffee. They sure aren't going to wait 3-4 days to get from coast to coast.
Dennis LaGrua posted:RailRide posted:I think it has more to the common implication that if it weren't for those pesky unions, such services would be cheap for the end user.
---PCJ
An Amtrak engineer gets paid almost the same as an engineer on the freight railroads. The average onboard service person Porters/SCA's , dining car personnel/chef, conductors can make anywhere from $43,000 to $70,000. An Amtrak Long Distance train usually has about 10 onboard service people. We must also remember that except for the NE corridor Amtrak pays millions to the freight railroads to use their tracks. Compared to total ticket revenue, Amtrak loses money but not that much when compared to a percentage of sales. It accounts for about 2-3% of the total US Transportation budget, the highways/roads, Airports, road bridges, road tunnels account for 97%.
I know about Amtrak's appropriation being a drop in the bucket, comparatively speaking. I'm speaking of a general belief manifest in countless statements on countless message boards/comment sections, etc (not just those pertaining to passenger rail) that "unionized workforce=wildly overpriced product/service", as being at least part of the motivation spurring Dan Padova's comment.
I remember reading in a history book about Amtrak (title to be inserted when I get home) that when Amtrak began, it was covering only about 21% of its operating expenses through ticket revenue. At the time of publication (before Amtrak's 40th anniversary), that figure had risen to about 80%. It now resides a little over 90%. If it weren't for capital expenses (something Wall Street wishes the major freight RR's would cut back on), they'd be pretty close to being in the black.
---PCJ
R. Hales posted:I don't blame the cost of labor as a reason why riding a train is so expensive. I blame the unfair advantage given to the highway and air transportation modes for the last 70 years. Many believe passenger rail should pay its own way. Why? The highway and air modes don't and never have. Some years ago I did a little research and found that gas taxes and vehicle registrations paid less than 60% of what is required to build and maintain roads and highways. And I am pretty confident this funding gap has grown. And if the airlines had to pay for all of the airport and air infrastructure cost there would be no private carriers. We would probably have a state airline. Amflite?
The Highway Trust Fund has been in the red for the past 8 years (possibly 9 or 10 now since it may have been a a year or more since I read the report). In that time, it has had to be bailed out--from the General Fund (i.e. the federal pot that everybody pays into)--to the tune of $50 billion--more than has been allocated to Amtrak in its entire existence.
But others will state (as did the first respondent to your message above), essentially that everyone depends on roads, and "almost nobody" depends on passenger rail, so it's "worth it" (i.e. 'not a subsidy' )
---PCJ
I am with Dennis - and I have free travel on American Airlines until I die. I do not fly unless somebody buys me a first class ticket. Next time we get a private bath compartment. I love riding the train, even though they are not as comfortable as the old heavyweight Pullmans.
Also a union member. If it were not for ALPA, pilots would have been worked to death for peanuts, and had overnights in the passenger lounge. I was an electrical engineer before my airline career, and can tell you - back then, engineers (not the railroad kind) needed a union. They were just too conservative to use their organization to negotiate. They had a good organization - I think it was called IEEE.
I am going to the O Scale convention in August in D.C. I leave Omaha at 5:15 AM. I get to DC the next day at 1pm. I could fly for about the same price about $400.00. I will arrive rested rather than the hassle of the rush, rush of an airport and the herding of people.
Dick
Dan Padova posted:Just had time to watch the video. I now understand the ticketing costs. However, as always, the cost of labor gets an up front seat when it comes to pointing out why things are expensive. I resent the implication.
Dan,
It is a fact that the cost of labor is nearly always the largest cost of any business. This is the reason that we have ATMs instead of bank tellers, self-service gas stations instead of gas attendants, two man train crews instead of 5 man crews, 20 people running a ship instead instead of 50 to 100, etc. I went to the dealer today to get a problem with my car fixed. The "check engine" light was on. The cost of the labor to fix the problem was 3 times the cost of parts. Model train manufacturers are moving production out of China because the cost of Chinese labor is rising. It is very hard to find any business where the cost of labor isn't the largest cost.
NH Joe
I have ridden trains all over Europe and they are clean,comfortable and ON TIME and go everywhere that you want to go.I have ridden Amtrak from Sacramento to Reno round trip and the train was not clean and from Baltimore to New York round trip and that train was pretty clean.The government needs to pump money into Amtrak to improve the product which might create more ridership.
Mikey
Last night I read an article in the current (March 2018) issue of Trains Magazine about the new Amtrak CEO's plans to improve service. He is a former Delta Airlines executive.
His plan to bring airline perks to Amtrak - less staffing, paying for checked luggage, paying for carry on bags, paying for a window seat, cramming in more seats per car, higher prices, etc. If you love the airlines now, you will love the new and improved airline style Amtrak. (In fairness, I have not quoted the article but this is what it implies.)
NH Joe
Like the salaries CEO get which are 300 to 400 times what the average wage earner gets who works for the company. Compare that to the difference 40-50 years ago when that ratio was 30-35 to 1.
If someone was to add up the salaries & cost of benefits of all the people who work for Amtrak, and compare it to the salary & benefits cost of the CEO, which number would be more significant? I suspect there are a lot more than 300 or 400 people working for Amtrak. (found a 2016 article in the Atlantic that claims more than 20,000)
This is not to say that I am pro-CEO or anti-Union. Facts are facts, and when honestly presented, numbers don't lie.
That sounds like government thinking. Bring in someone who has no railroad experience to run the show. 
Tinplate Art posted:Dennis: Well stated! I also gave up flying in 2000!
But, how would you go to Iceland or New Zealand? Those are some of the most beautiful places I've ever been.
Kent in SD
Two23 posted:Tinplate Art posted:Dennis: Well stated! I also gave up flying in 2000!
But, how would you go to Iceland or New Zealand? Those are some of the most beautiful places I've ever been.
Kent in SD
Boat.
C W Burfle posted:Like the salaries CEO get which are 300 to 400 times what the average wage earner gets who works for the company. Compare that to the difference 40-50 years ago when that ratio was 30-35 to 1.
If someone was to add up the salaries & cost of benefits of all the people who work for Amtrak, and compare it to the salary & benefits cost of the CEO, which number would be more significant? I suspect there are a lot more than 300 or 400 people working for Amtrak. (found a 2016 article in the Atlantic that claims more than 20,000)
This is not to say that I am pro-CEO or anti-Union. Facts are facts, and when honestly presented, numbers don't lie.
I get it. But when the American workforce wants to be paid a fair wage, you might think they said a four letter word. It's a fact that wage earners salaries or hourly wage has not kept up with the cost of living, even alittle bit, over the past forty or so years. So while those at the very top of the corporate structure have seen their wages increase many times over, workers wages have kept stagnant.
Labor cost gets an unfair comparison as far as it's total. In other words, the cost of a large work force calculates to alot of money when compared to a single CEO. I am a retired union carpenter. Forty years ago, we were in contract talks with the GBCA ( General Building Contractors Association ). While some of the mechanical trades were able to get a bigger raise, percentage wise, we had to settle for a smaller one. The main reason was due to our numbers. Carpenters are the largest portion of construction labor cost on a building.
My wife and I with another couple (we're all in our 40s) in 2015 rode the Metroliner from Penn Station in Manhattan to DC Union Station, took the Capitol Limited to Chicago, then the Empire Builder to Seattle, then the Cascades to the nearest depot to where we live.
We loved it (I figured she'd hate it after the second day, but the opposite occurred instead). We took the roomettes on both the named trains and it worked out fine.
I'd never been on Amtrak for more than a couple hours before that. Sure, it's way slower, no question, but still worth every penny if you have the time.
As for the cost, it all made perfect sense to us.
That's what I would like to do someday. Take a long distance train. My wife would like it as long as we could get off at a given location, spend a day or two there, then board the same train, not the very same one.....LOL, again and continue on our journey.
I missed my chance to travel from Philly to Los Angeles back in 1967. I was reporting for active duty at Port Hueneme, in California. The Personnelman asked me if I wanted to go by train or fly. If I had gone by train, I would not have been able to celebrate that Thanksgiving with my family and they would have been disappointed. But sometimes I look back and regret not having taken advantage of the train trip. I would have been afforded a compartment or roomette. Up to that point, in my life, I had never been west of West Philly.....LOL It would have been an adventure I'm sure.
Dan, plan your trip now! www.amtrak.com
Our family took a cross-country trip via Amtrak, almost three weeks with all the side trips, and loved it!
We've also taken the train on shorter hops from Virginia to New York, Philadelphia, Orlando, Atlanta, Savannah, Montreal, all on separate occasions.
We travel by air when necessary (can't take a train to the Caribbean) yet airports are such a hassle these days.
I get the appeal of train travel or I would not be on this forum. However the availability of destinations and times just do not make it a viable alternative outside of the North East Corridor or California. Nine hours New York to Pittsburg and one train a day. That's a 5 hour drive folks. I don't think air travel is dirty. Crowded, yes in the hell hole called Newark Liberty airport. TSA outside of Newark by and large are also not as bad as one would imagine. Other airports are clean, designed well, staff is courteous and you get someplace in a reasonable amount of time. When my son moves to Ft Belvoir in July I expect we will travel there using Amtrak most of the time because the travel time is the same or shorter than driving . Longer trips do not make train travel all that appealing unless you have the rest of your life to get from point A to point B.
Dan, take advantage of your Italian Heritage and go to Italy or the rest of Europe and enjoy the great trains that are clean and run on time,I have ridden on some breathtaking rides in Northern Italy and on into Switzerland.Just my two Cents Worth.
Mikey
The bottom line is that it's not an option for the majority of people in the US. Why? Because most people live nowhere near where Amtrak runs, so they'd have to fly to get there, which defeats the purpose for most.
I live along where Amtrak runs the Cascades and Coast Starlight trains. I'd ride the Cascades more if they didn't sell out well in advance, as I can't just wake up and say, "I feel like riding to Seattle/Portland today" and go to the station to do so. I tried that more than once and failed every time (always in off-peak times).
I grew up in Tallahassee Florida (left there in 1998). For a short while, the Sunset Limited came through town, stopping there in the middle of the night, in aterrible (really seedy) spot to be dumped off at about 1AM. Katrina killed the run east of New Orleans after I left there, and now CSX is talking about selling the line between Jacksonville and Pensacola. I can't imagine Amtrak will ever be back, so people who live there have no rail options. If you add them all up, I'd think the vast majority of Americans don't live within any decent distance of an Amtrak depot.
mikey posted:Dan, take advantage of your Italian Heritage and go to Italy or the rest of Europe and enjoy the great trains that are clean and run on time,I have ridden on some breathtaking rides in Northern Italy and on into Switzerland.Just my two Cents Worth.
Mikey
We have ridden trains in Europe. In 2011 we went to London, then travelled by train to Paris and from there to Padova, Italy. The London to Paris train was amazing. The Paris to Padova train was an overnight train. We shared a compartment with a French couple who spoke less English than we did French.....LOL The only disappointing thing about that train was no dining car. Not even a snack bar. Food and beverages were served from a rolling cart. SWMBO was not happy about that. But still, the trip was a unique experience. While in Padova, we took local trains to Venice. Easy to do and not expensive. I think we spent about twelve dollars, round trip, for that excision.
In 2005 we were in Tuscany and took some local trains to Florence. Again, inexpensive and quick service.
We found the Italians extremely helpful at the train stations. France, not quite so accommodating, but still courteous.
Funny story about the train from London to Paris. We had spent that morning touring Saint Pauls Cathedral. We lost track of time and when we return to our hotel needed a taxi, pronto to take us to the train station. The staff called one for us. The taxi driver had a good sense of humor, but my wife was too upset with the traffic jamb we were stuck in. Long story short, when we got to the station, my wife, all 4'-11" and 110 pounds of her pushed her way through the customs line and we just made it to the train. The attendants were closing the doors as we boarded. The trip to Paris, through the chunnel, made it all the more pleasant as did the two gentleman we shared facing seats with.
Travel really does wake one up to reality.
I'm typing this aboard the Silver Meteor going to Ft. Lauderdale. My wife and I have our own roomettes. Great trip...worth every penny.
I'll be taking the Zephyr from Reno to Chicago next week for the Chicago Meet. And I don't think a sleeper is all that expensive considering I'm also spending 2 nights on the train I'm not spending in a Motel/Hotel.
If minimizing time and money are what you care about then the train is just not the way to go. Me, If It's too far to drive and I can't take the train (or a ship) I just don't go.
I'm still looking forward to a freighter cruise one of these days. 110 days around the world for about $18,000. Around the world cruise ships are $25K - 80K.
That and going to Antarctica on the Bark Europa. But you have to fly to Ushuaia, Argentina so that takes some of the desirability out of that for me. And it's already fully booked for the 2019 season.
