wifi and bluetooth

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

I think Wifi is Ok, but Bluetooth is a bit risky. I recently saw someone using Amazon's Alexa for train control, that is in my opinion just another way for Amazon to stalk you. I personly know lots of things in this field, in fact, I love computer science, but when we begin using Ai for model train control it gets way too far. isn't the whole point of model trains to be a fun thing, not a thing for computers to enjoy.

I feel the same way.  I read in the 2018 MTH catalog that wifi and Bluetooth were something to try to get the younger crowd interested in trains.  I'm 52.  I use a smart phone.  I like computers too.  What do you think I'm typing this on?  But, as you stated, "Alexa, run playback number 4"  is going too far.  It's a hobby, not a science project.

I'm using the WIFI app and system with my MTH trains. I usually grab for the remote. Our grandson, almost always grabs for the phone to use the app first.

I admit I was scared of the DCS  remote and was running conventionally until Steve Nelson showed me how easy it was and made getting into it affordable. I really enjoy it and my grandkids think it's really neat! That being said I think I've ventured as far as I'm willing to go! LOL

My set will be conventional to start (I'm a newbie too) and it'll stay that way for a while.  My kids, 5 and 8, will jump for the smart phone in a second so I'm considering how to get them more engaged.  I think I'll get them a small conventional switcher and install a BlueRail card, Bluetooth receiver/amp and speaker and let them run that for a while.  Personally I'll probably get DCS and a Legacy system to run those engines as I acquire them, but I'm not there yet.  

Once I get a layout up and some track I can begin to gauge more of what I need from then on.  So my opinion on WiFi/BT vs. other system is not yet well informed.

our club layout is 42 x 44 if one stands in the front the blue tooth looses contact with the engine when it gets in the back. 

range is not very far.

if you follow the engine around it is ok.

To me there’s no difference between using your IPad or cellphone and using your DCS or TMCC handheld transmitter.

A tactile throttle “could” be made to be used with bluetooth/WiFi, but who is going to make it and at what price?

 I have a Mad Catz bluetooth handheld controller I can use, along with my IPad, whenever I run my BlueRail equipped engines, so basically the tactile throttle is already out there.

It wasn’t initially designed for train use, but like I said, someone “could” make one, at a price.

You can run trains conventionally using a transformer connected to the rails, but I’ve been more than happy running BPRC for over 3 years now, using a 2.4 GHz handheld transmitter with a knob and no display screen to look at, just my trains.

 I want to add this...I’ve had ZERO failures using BPRC electronics (Deltang and BlueRail components) and battery power.

Size of layout, as mentioned by bigdodgetrain, metal i beams and support material and wiring, may also factor in signal interference. 

Personally I use conventional,  Legacy and Lionchief hand held control.  My smartphone keeps timing out at 10 minute (maximum time allowed) and my dcs is unreliable at best.

High tech is great and GPS, Laptops , VD, CATV, Smartphones, Video systems certainly enhance ones lifestyle but the complexity of today's life  sometimes needs to go in a simple more relaxed direction.  As everything else in my home in mechanized, preferring to run simple conventional and reliable seems to offer a break.

I am new to Lionel and train control,have 2 Lionchief RTR sets for carpet central, the the hand held remotes work great, the bluetooth phone app also is nice, grandson uses both, he is 4. I will now most probably venture into an MTH DCS Explorer system, just so I can get an MTH GE Evolution Engine,or some other one with charging lights. It is sort of backwards, getting the engine is forcing me into a different control system.  As for automatic control of trains the full DCS system has it, it is called record/playback.  Wish I could get it, but at this time cannot justify a full DCS system for carpet central, although I would love it.

So for me Lionchief is a hit, and if everything works right, the DCS explorer should also be one.

When i was a kid never liked Lionel, with the 3 rails, always had American Flyer. Now with fastrack I like it.

As far as the forum goes, it is the best one on the internet for trains. The range of expertise is astounding. One other observation about using the Lionchief  remote is you don't need to look at it to run trains, everything can be done by feel.

Oldmike

I recently bought a LionChief set for my (35 and 40 YO) sons' families'- two of them, with three kids between the two families- kids aged 1-1/2 - 10. 

The sets were  Christmas presents, l that I bought a year earlier- no Bluetooth.  The one for  the older son has been perfect.  The boy (1-1/2) went crazy- absolutely loved it.  But his set - for the 35 YO's family - was defective- no sound, no chuff when I gave it to them this Christmas.  So, that night we had to take it down after the Christmas celebration, deciding to find a new one- one way or another.  The warranty would have NOT gotten a working set by that holiday.  It's a Christmas train set for a kid!!   

So, I called the LHS to BUY another set, intending to "drop off" the defective set to Lionel (stick it somewhere) when I went through Charlotte in January.   

And, yes- I DID contact Lionel Cust Svc- they still (four months later) have not responded.

My LHS (with the gracious help of his distributor) instead took the defective set back, and gave me a new one- with Bluetooth this time.  New set in place two days later.

(And this is why this post is here) The younger son went nuts over the FACT that the set had Bluetooth.  The older one (when he tried the BT set on a visit) could not have cared less.  But that FIVE year difference in age, made all the difference.

If Bluetooth works to get 10% more people into our hobby- have at it, Lionel and MTH!!!

(and Lionel- PLEASE get your CS in line.)

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

DCS is fine, we are talking about using Bluetooth, or even Alexa to control trains.

I believe you are. However the topic title of the OP is WIFI and Bluetooth. So maybe you are limiting the conversation?

Mike Wyatt posted:

I recently bought a LionChief set for my (35 and 40 YO) sons' families'- two of them, with three kids between the two families- kids aged 1-1/2 - 10. 

The sets were  Christmas presents, l that I bought a year earlier- no Bluetooth.  The one for  the older son has been perfect.  The boy (1-1/2) went crazy- absolutely loved it.  But his set - for the 35 YO's family - was defective- no sound, no chuff when I gave it to them this Christmas.  So, that night we had to take it down after the Christmas celebration, deciding to find a new one- one way or another.  The warranty would have NOT gotten a working set by that holiday.  It's a Christmas train set for a kid!!   

So, I called the LHS to BUY another set, intending to "drop off" the defective set to Lionel (stick it somewhere) when I went through Charlotte in January.   

And, yes- I DID contact Lionel Cust Svc- they still (four months later) have not responded.

My LHS (with the gracious help of his distributor) instead took the defective set back, and gave me a new one- with Bluetooth this time.  New set in place two days later.

(And this is why this post is here) The younger son went nuts over the FACT that the set had Bluetooth.  The older one (when he tried the BT set on a visit) could not have cared less.  But that FIVE year difference in age, made all the difference.

If Bluetooth works to get 10% more people into our hobby- have at it, Lionel and MTH!!!

(and Lionel- PLEASE get your CS in line.)

how did you contact lionel?

try again.

TODAY - I run my Legacy and DCS trains with their respective remotes (have two of each), and have no conventional trains to run.

My wife and I have AT&T inexpensive cell phones ($25 every three months), which allow us to talk, text messaging, take pictures, but very limited internet access. They do what we need for $200/year for both.

COMPUTERS - I presently have four desktop computers and a laptop. I also have a Samsung Tab E 9.6" that I use primarily to track my target scores when I shoot F-Class rifles 1000-yard matches. I have been using home computers extensively, including programming, starting with the Altair 8800 in 1976, and the Commodore Pet in 1980.

The 10' x 12' HO layout I had from 1986 through 1993 was 100% computer controlled. I designed and built the system from scratch using a first generation Compaq hard drive computer, with assembly and Q-Basic programming, and the trains did practically unlimited range of operations.

RUNNING TRAINS - All of this having been said, I have no interest in running my trains with a cell phone, pad, or tablet. Yes, I would like to run them with a computer so I can talk with my guests while the trains run, as I was able to do 30 years ago, and I am working on this.

GETTING THE YOUNGER SET INVOLVED

I have my reservations regarding using smart phones, pads, etc., to attract the younger generation to model trains. Their attention span will last a few minutes, and as soon as they figure out how to run the trains, they will go to something else, such as texting their friends (even if they are in the same room!) about what they can do - and that will be the end of the story.

CHALLENGE - We need to find a way to get the kids interested no only in running the trains, but in how to get there; i.e., how to build the layouts.

Just my 2¢

Alex

So, what is required to operate MTH or Lionel engines with the app on either iPad or iPhone?

Ingeniero No1 posted:

TODAY - I run my Legacy and DCS trains with their respective remotes (have two of each), and have no conventional trains to run.

My wife and I have AT&T inexpensive cell phones ($25 every three months), which allow us to talk, text messaging, take pictures, but very limited internet access. They do what we need for $200/year for both. 

You're not really expected to use your everyday phone for this purpose. Lots of reasons why this isn't a great idea.

Get a cheap phone for the layout - and keep it there just for that task.

Internet access isn't a factor - not needed for these systems to function.

Ingeniero No1 posted:

 

COMPUTERS - I presently have four desktop computers and a laptop. I also have a Samsung Tab E 9.6" that I use primarily to track my target scores when I shoot F-Class rifles 1000-yard matches. I have been using home computers extensively, including programming, starting with the Altair 8800 in 1976, and the Commodore Pet in 1980.

The 10' x 12' HO layout I had from 1986 through 1993 was 100% computer controlled. I designed and built the system from scratch using a first generation Compaq hard drive computer, with assembly and Q-Basic programming, and the trains did practically unlimited range of operations.

RUNNING TRAINS - All of this having been said, I have no interest in running my trains with a cell phone, pad, or tablet. Yes, I would like to run them with a computer so I can talk with my guests while the trains run, as I was able to do 30 years ago, and I am working on this.

 

Sounds like splitting hairs to me.

Running them with a phone tablet IS "running them with a computer"

Your vintage experience with software is testimony how rudimentary some of these systems are - and how much lag there is in creating graceful products for this market. 

Isn't this stuff mostly simple "on/off" "more/less" control messages?

Ingeniero No1 posted:

 

GETTING THE YOUNGER SET INVOLVED

I have my reservations regarding using smart phones, pads, etc., to attract the younger generation to model trains. Their attention span will last a few minutes, and as soon as they figure out how to run the trains, they will go to something else, such as texting their friends (even if they are in the same room!) about what they can do - and that will be the end of the story.

CHALLENGE - We need to find a way to get the kids interested no only in running the trains, but in how to get there; i.e., how to build the layouts.

 

I agree with the challenge part - in that model railroading is a subset of the broader "modeling" hobby - any vector to get a kid into modeling is path to model railroading...moreso than any cell phone app.

But I might also suggest the whole "we have to get kids in the hobby" has become more of a promotional mantra from the manufacturers to get adults to buy trains. We are the target demographic there - since we have the wallets!

I still don’t see what the big the difference is between holding a CAB 1 or 2 or a DCS remote and a cell phone. 

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

I think Wifi is Ok, but Bluetooth is a bit risky. I recently saw someone using Amazon's Alexa for train control, that is in my opinion just another way for Amazon to stalk you. I personly know lots of things in this field, in fact, I love computer science, but when we begin using Ai for model train control it gets way too far. isn't the whole point of model trains to be a fun thing, not a thing for computers to enjoy.

Sure - but you are probably able bodied.

A handicap person might appreciate an Alexa interface for trains - and just might be ok with conceding what loco they are running to Amazon without feeling "stalked".

And - personally - I would prefer more complex train systems and software - I think we are missing out on team game play and other activities that wouldn't be possible without digitization of our controls.

The MTH DCS system has the right idea - but the fact that there is no master brain to keep touch controllers in sync is a major omission IMO - and something I hope they address with a rework of the network architecture or maybe a software appliance...MORE AI - not less!

rrvics posted:

I still don’t see what the big the difference is between holding a CAB 1 or 2 or a DCS remote and a cell phone. 

My sentiments exactly, only with emphasis.  Why, why, why would you want to use a tiny cell phone screen when you have nice rubber buttons that are easy to find and feel.

rrvics posted:

I still don’t see what the big the difference is between holding a CAB 1 or 2 or a DCS remote and a cell phone. 

The major difference - and where the phone is somewhat lacking - there is no tactile control.

No wheel, knob or button.

You pretty much have to look at the device to make an adjustment.

However the phone/apps has the advantage of much better text infos and system information.

No need for abbreviations, combinations of keys or other shorthands - plenty of memory and high res screen in your controller has that advantage. 

WaynePA posted:

So, what is required to operate MTH or Lionel engines with the app on either iPad or iPhone?

If i'm correct, you have to have wifi in your home, like I do to run the computer, and since you have a wifi router, you can use your cell phone's wifi connection to the router.  If you have the DCS system, with the wifi box, that connects your DCS to the router.  So if you download the DCS app, and run the app, by virtue of being connected to the wifi in your house which is connected to the wifi box on the DCS, you can run your trains using a cell phone, laptop, your computer, a tablet, anything that has the ability to connect to the web and run the DCS app.  My point with this question was to ask other members, WHY?  How is this better?  It's cool.  It's clever.  It's modern.  But it really doesn't make running the trains more fun or more efficient.  It just allows MTH and Lionel to phase out the remotes.  I liken it to the statement, "brought kicking and screaming into the 21st century".  "We have evolved".  "No more rotary phones."  But whether it's on a rotary phone, push button phone or a cell phone, a phone call is a phone call.  Granted you can use video to look at each other while you talk, but that's a cell phone feature and you are talking to another person.  This is just watching your trains go round and round.  Wifi let's your run the train, not see it run.  You still have to have wifi cameras in the room that you connect to with the phone in order to see the trains run while you are in Tahiti.  I know sarcasm sucks, but, do you see my point?

Ingeniero No1 posted:

TODAY - I run my Legacy and DCS trains with their respective remotes (have two of each), and have no conventional trains to run.

My wife and I have AT&T inexpensive cell phones ($25 every three months), which allow us to talk, text messaging, take pictures, but very limited internet access. They do what we need for $200/year for both.

COMPUTERS - I presently have four desktop computers and a laptop. I also have a Samsung Tab E 9.6" that I use primarily to track my target scores when I shoot F-Class rifles 1000-yard matches. I have been using home computers extensively, including programming, starting with the Altair 8800 in 1976, and the Commodore Pet in 1980.

The 10' x 12' HO layout I had from 1986 through 1993 was 100% computer controlled. I designed and built the system from scratch using a first generation Compaq hard drive computer, with assembly and Q-Basic programming, and the trains did practically unlimited range of operations.

RUNNING TRAINS - All of this having been said, I have no interest in running my trains with a cell phone, pad, or tablet. Yes, I would like to run them with a computer so I can talk with my guests while the trains run, as I was able to do 30 years ago, and I am working on this.

GETTING THE YOUNGER SET INVOLVED

I have my reservations regarding using smart phones, pads, etc., to attract the younger generation to model trains. Their attention span will last a few minutes, and as soon as they figure out how to run the trains, they will go to something else, such as texting their friends (even if they are in the same room!) about what they can do - and that will be the end of the story.

CHALLENGE - We need to find a way to get the kids interested no only in running the trains, but in how to get there; i.e., how to build the layouts.

Just my 2¢

Alex

 

Alex.  I say this with only admiration in mind.  You are a man after my own heart.  I love my wife, I wouldn't trade her for the world, but you said it better than I could have imagined it.  Kids today are not interested in round and round.  They like drones and video games, and social nightmare, I mean media.  But you're exactly right, model trains are not toys, they are toys, but the industry and the hobby is art.  It's what you can do with a layout that makes it worth the time and money, not how you drive the trains.

Engineer-Joe posted:

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

DCS is fine, we are talking about using Bluetooth, or even Alexa to control trains.

I believe you are. However the topic title of the OP is WIFI and Bluetooth. So maybe you are limiting the conversation?

Actually i'm simply trying to get an idea of how people feel about the next generation of operating trains.  First it was transformers, then bigger transformers, then came DCS and Legacy, upgrades abounded, and now, we are trying out WIFI and Bluetooth tech to run them.  I would like to know your opinion of this new evolution in train management.  And you're right, a member told me that he saw someone using ALEXA to run the train.

Yardmaster96 posted:

WaynePA posted:

So, what is required to operate MTH or Lionel engines with the app on either iPad or iPhone?

If i'm correct, you have to have wifi in your home, like I do to run the computer, and since you have a wifi router, you can use your cell phone's wifi connection to the router.  If you have the DCS system, with the wifi box, that connects your DCS to the router.  So if you download the DCS app, and run the app, by virtue of being connected to the wifi in your house which is connected to the wifi box on the DCS, you can run your trains using a cell phone, laptop, your computer, a tablet, anything that has the ability to connect to the web and run the DCS app.  My point with this question was to ask other members, WHY?  How is this better?  It's cool.  It's clever.  It's modern.  But it really doesn't make running the trains more fun or more efficient.  It just allows MTH and Lionel to phase out the remotes.  I liken it to the statement, "brought kicking and screaming into the 21st century".  "We have evolved".  "No more rotary phones."  But whether it's on a rotary phone, push button phone or a cell phone, a phone call is a phone call.  Granted you can use video to look at each other while you talk, but that's a cell phone feature and you are talking to another person.  This is just watching your trains go round and round.  Wifi let's your run the train, not see it run.  You still have to have wifi cameras in the room that you connect to with the phone in order to see the trains run while you are in Tahiti.  I know sarcasm sucks, but, do you see my point?

You don't know what each manufacturers long term plans are - nor do I.

In the sort term - yes the remotes might be being phased out - but still supported.

In the long term - new remotes that work with a computer or tablet interface might be on the horizon.

The best of both worlds.

The tactile controller is the ONLY advantage of the existing remotes - the rest of those packages are primitive compared to the app interface and the information it accesses.

The long term goal - as I see it - is to take this hobby from "just watching your trains go round and round" to network based team game play.

I can see bringing elements of fantasy baseball, SIM gaming, real-world railroading and running trains into one cool activity! Why not!!!?

Mike Wyatt posted:

I recently bought a LionChief set for my (35 and 40 YO) sons' families'- two of them, with three kids between the two families- kids aged 1-1/2 - 10. 

The sets were  Christmas presents, l that I bought a year earlier- no Bluetooth.  The one for  the older son has been perfect.  The boy (1-1/2) went crazy- absolutely loved it.  But his set - for the 35 YO's family - was defective- no sound, no chuff when I gave it to them this Christmas.  So, that night we had to take it down after the Christmas celebration, deciding to find a new one- one way or another.  The warranty would have NOT gotten a working set by that holiday.  It's a Christmas train set for a kid!!   

So, I called the LHS to BUY another set, intending to "drop off" the defective set to Lionel (stick it somewhere) when I went through Charlotte in January.   

And, yes- I DID contact Lionel Cust Svc- they still (four months later) have not responded.

My LHS (with the gracious help of his distributor) instead took the defective set back, and gave me a new one- with Bluetooth this time.  New set in place two days later.

(And this is why this post is here) The younger son went nuts over the FACT that the set had Bluetooth.  The older one (when he tried the BT set on a visit) could not have cared less.  But that FIVE year difference in age, made all the difference.

If Bluetooth works to get 10% more people into our hobby- have at it, Lionel and MTH!!!

(and Lionel- PLEASE get your CS in line.)

I agree.  I may not be a fan of evolving to the wifi and Bluetooth method, but you are correct.  If wifi and or Bluetooth operation can interest new people, old or young, 10 or 110, then it's worth the effort put into designing it and selling it.  That said, I still feel that Lionel and MTH are setting us up for complete change over to a system that the older generation, veterans of the hobby, and new guys that think like me, the remote is fine, will be forced to change and thus we will lose interest in our hobby because it is no longer fun to play with.  Writing letters used to be the way it was done, now we have email and social media.  We can at least still write letters and mail them because pencils, pens, paper, envelopes, and stamps are still very much a part of our daily lives.  But what if one day they ceased to exist because "everyone is doing it on a computer now."

Roving Sign

I know that internet access is not needed to run the trains with a phone, pad, etc. I just meant to say that I do indeed have a cell phone, which is limited when compared to those most people have (and a lot cheaper), but I use it primarily only as a phone, and do not have any desire to use such a device (phone, pad, etc.) to run the trains, or to access the internet as I like to have a full screen and a full size keyboard to do what I am doing right now. 

When I said running the trains with a computer, I meant running them with a programmed set of operations, so they run totally unattended, have derailing and other malfunction detecting subroutines, all of which allow me to 'visit' with my guests while the trains run, on their own essentially trouble and risk free.

"Isn't this stuff mostly simple "on/off" "more/less" control messages?" If by on/off you mean 1' and 0's, yes, absolutely. That was the case back then, and it is still today. However, instead of assembly language and Q-Basic, now I prefer to program in C^.

Thx!

Alex

Roving Sign posted:

Yardmaster96 posted:

WaynePA posted:

So, what is required to operate MTH or Lionel engines with the app on either iPad or iPhone?

If i'm correct, you have to have wifi in your home, like I do to run the computer, and since you have a wifi router, you can use your cell phone's wifi connection to the router.  If you have the DCS system, with the wifi box, that connects your DCS to the router.  So if you download the DCS app, and run the app, by virtue of being connected to the wifi in your house which is connected to the wifi box on the DCS, you can run your trains using a cell phone, laptop, your computer, a tablet, anything that has the ability to connect to the web and run the DCS app.  My point with this question was to ask other members, WHY?  How is this better?  It's cool.  It's clever.  It's modern.  But it really doesn't make running the trains more fun or more efficient.  It just allows MTH and Lionel to phase out the remotes.  I liken it to the statement, "brought kicking and screaming into the 21st century".  "We have evolved".  "No more rotary phones."  But whether it's on a rotary phone, push button phone or a cell phone, a phone call is a phone call.  Granted you can use video to look at each other while you talk, but that's a cell phone feature and you are talking to another person.  This is just watching your trains go round and round.  Wifi let's your run the train, not see it run.  You still have to have wifi cameras in the room that you connect to with the phone in order to see the trains run while you are in Tahiti.  I know sarcasm sucks, but, do you see my point?

You don't know what each manufacturers long term plans are - nor do I.

In the sort term - yes the remotes might be being phased out - but still supported.

In the long term - new remotes that work with a computer or tablet interface might be on the horizon.

The best of both worlds.

The tactile controller is the ONLY advantage of the existing remotes - the rest of those packages are primitive compared to the app interface and the information it accesses.

The long term goal - as I see it - is to take this hobby from "just watching your trains go round and round" to network based team game play.

I can see bringing elements of fantasy baseball, SIM gaming, real-world railroading and running trains into one cool activity! Why not!!!?

You know, I hadn't thought of that.  There might be a place in the future for online railroading among teams.  Not sure how it would work or what you could do from a fantasy stand point, but I will remember that when I give my personal opinion of it later.  Thanks WaynePA. 

Looked in the MTH catalog. You need to have the DCS system then add the WiFi adapter and then need a device to connect to the WiFi adapter. Pretty expensive if you don’t already have the DCS system.

Yardmaster96 posted:

  Why, why, why would you want to use a tiny cell phone screen when you have nice rubber buttons that are easy to find and feel.

Because on a 7 inch tablet the controls are easy to understand instead of a tiny LCD screen or even smaller icon buttons. I've used both apps and the ability to read the entire function vs trying to interpret a tiny icon or 3 letter acronym has turned me off from using the remotes after seeing how the app worked. Also, the remotes cost a lot more than a bargain bin tablet. I've had to replace a dropped remote (before the days of the apps) and that was an expense I didn't look forward to.

Also keep in mind that the apps are software, and easily changed. I envision someday where we as operators will be able to customize the look and controls we see on the apps. We would be able to put commonly used controls on the home screen of the app in any way we want them to appear. Personally, I wish the the red wheel on the cab remote was in a different location but that's never going to happen.

And yet another thing that the apps help facilitate is to allow those with disabilities to participate better. There is an older member in our train club that has Parkinsons and operating the remotes with there tiny buttons is extremely difficult, let alone holding them like we do. The app with larger buttons ( on a 11 inch tablet) and the use of a weighted stylus has been much easier for him to use. Before the apps, he was limited to conventional operation only.

As for the actual Wifi vs Bluetooth they are are both good and each have there pros and cons. I have experienced the range problems with Bluetooth engines. But as Bigdogetrain said earlier, this only happens on large layouts and you may need to centrally locate yourself or follow the train a bit.

Bluetooth is a simple setup and WiFi offers more flexibility with multiple operators because of how the communication is handled to the train controller.

Ingeniero No1 posted:

Roving Sign

I know that internet access is not needed to run the trains with a phone, pad, etc. I just meant to say that I do indeed have a cell phone, which is limited when compared to those most people have (and a lot cheaper), but I use it primarily only as a phone, and do not have any desire to use such a device (phone, pad, etc.) to run the trains, or to access the internet as I like to have a full screen and a full size keyboard to do what I am doing right now. 

When I said running the trains with a computer, I meant running them with a programmed set of operations, so they run totally unattended, have derailing and other malfunction detecting subroutines, all of which allow me to 'visit' with my guests while the trains run, on their own essentially trouble and risk free.

"Isn't this stuff mostly simple "on/off" "more/less" control messages?" If by on/off you mean 1' and 0's, yes, absolutely. That was the case back then, and it is still today. However, instead of assembly language and Q-Basic, now I prefer to program in C^.

Thx!

Alex

The main thing I like about the DCS and Legacy systems is the you can hook up an elaborate series of track, with switches/turnouts, and if you can manage it all without causing a massive crash, you can run more than one train at a time with one system.  Granted you can run three trains on three separate tracks with transformers as long as bouncing between three transformers and juggling three trains is ok with you.  It's kind of like fishing with 4 poles.  Each pole is one fish.  If all four get a hit, which one to you set first and one person can't reel four poles at one time.  DCS is my choice because Legacy only plays with legacy locomotives.  DCS is set up to run legacy, atlas, Bachmann, MTH, etc.  I can run one train on one track eastbound, another on a second track westbound, a third eastbound on a third track, the list goes on.  Switches allow me to transfer trains from one track to another, stop one train while another goes by, back one train into a consist while another moves forward out the gate.  All using one remote, one system, one layout.  DCS has that playback feature I will definitely use.  And thanks to you, I have ideas on how to use it effectively.  But cell phones ring, receive texts, lose signal, time out, as you said, and batteries do run down quickly.  My personal opinion is that evolving is one thing, but phasing out to save money, could be a hobby killer.

Yardmaster96 posted:

  And you're right, a member told me that he saw someone using ALEXA to run the train.

Did he use ALEXA to really control the train? I thought he turned on the layout using an ALEXA controlled outlet.

Maybe I saw a different video.

WaynePA posted:

Looked in the MTH catalog. You need to have the DCS system then add the WiFi adapter and then need a device to connect to the WiFi adapter. Pretty expensive if you don’t already have the DCS system.

DCS uses a Track Interface Unit (TIU) to hook to the track the way the transformer did.  From the TIU you hook to the power unit, which can be a transformer if you need one, or one of those "bricks" as they are called.  The "brick" or transformer plugs into the wall to complete the power circuit.  By telephone jack, you hook the wifi box to the TIU.  You can also hook what is called and AIU (Auxiliary interface unit), I think it's auxiliary, which allows you to hook, with wires to ports, switch track and things like gas stations with working pumps, or ferris wheels.  The remote, talks to the TIU sending and receiving signals that allow you to do things like sound the horn, ring the bell, listen to crew talk, speed up, slow down, electrically couple or uncouple cars, set speeds, and my favorite, record sessions you can playback and not have to do anything but watch.  But as you said, it's expensive.

H1000 posted:

Yardmaster96 posted:

  Why, why, why would you want to use a tiny cell phone screen when you have nice rubber buttons that are easy to find and feel.

Because on a 7 inch tablet the controls are easy to understand instead of a tiny LCD screen or even smaller icon buttons. I've used both apps and the ability to read the entire function vs trying to interpret a tiny icon or 3 letter acronym has turned me off from using the remotes after seeing how the app worked. Also, the remotes cost a lot more than a bargain bin tablet. I've had to replace a dropped remote (before the days of the apps) and that was an expense I didn't look forward to.

Also keep in mind that the apps are software, and easily changed. I envision someday where we as operators will be able to customize the look and controls we see on the apps. We would be able to put commonly used controls on the home screen of the app in any way we want them to appear. Personally, I wish the the red wheel on the cab remote was in a different location but that's never going to happen.

And yet another thing that the apps help facilitate is to allow those with disabilities to participate better. There is an older member in our train club that has Parkinsons and operating the remotes with there tiny buttons is extremely difficult, let alone holding them like we do. The app with larger buttons ( on a 11 inch tablet) and the use of a weighted stylus has been much easier for him to use. Before the apps, he was limited to conventional operation only.

As for the actual Wifi vs Bluetooth they are are both good and each have there pros and cons. I have experienced the range problems with Bluetooth engines. But as Bigdogetrain said earlier, this only happens on large layouts and you may need to centrally locate yourself or follow the train a bit.

Bluetooth is a simple setup and WiFi offers more flexibility with multiple operators because of how the communication is handled to the train controller.

 

This is great.  This is what I have been looking for.  Your reply is exactly why I fielded this topic.  Before I had the pleasure of reading all of the responses, I was convinced MTH and Lionel were just looking for silly ways to make trains more fun for millennials.  But this one educated me a great deal.  Things I had not thought about.  Your friend with Parkinson's.  Heck for that matter, what if a person with Lou Gehrig's wanted to run trains?  Hawking could have never used a remote.  I also didn't think about the customizing advantages as you stated.  Thanks H1000, you have changed my opinion of WIFI, but that being said, I'm still at the remote beginners stage.  Again thanks.  I needed this point of view.

WaynePA posted:

Looked in the MTH catalog. You need to have the DCS system then add the WiFi adapter and then need a device to connect to the WiFi adapter. Pretty expensive if you don’t already have the DCS system.

for start-up users, an in-expensive option is the DCS explorer and a tablet or phone

https://mthtrains.com/news/606

You don't have to have the full DCS system. You can have just the TIU and the WIFI (and a phone or tablet) for full control. You don't have to have the DCS remote.

Yardmaster96 posted:

 I was convinced MTH and Lionel were just looking for silly ways to make trains more fun for millennials. 

Well, yes & no. Isn't every gizmo company looking for silly ways to sell there products to anyone?  Think about all of the devices out there that needlessly deploy technology that add next to zero abilities to their operation and are not required to get the job done in the first place. Example: a Bluetooth enabled toothbrush (yes this exists!). Do the Bluetooth features make your teeth cleaner or whiter?

I think that the apps further enhance how we interact with our trains and controls. Just like how the first remotes enhanced our experience over that of conventional control.

Conventional control is as basic as it gets and some people prefer that. It gives them all of the feedback they want for limited amount of input they have to give. (I find myself running trains everyone once in while in old fashioned conventional mode because it brings back memories.)

Moving into handheld remotes, you have many more control and input options to enhance your train operating experience.

The apps furthers the remote's experience  by making it easier to manipulate and understand controls with a pleasing Graphical User Interface. This is what millennials want and these companies are marketing towards that. They have to if they want to remain relevant in the digital age.

It's kind of like buying a car, you get the stripped down model with no frills and it will still get you from A to B. But the higher end models provide a better driving experience with more interactive features. There is no right or wrong way to proceed, and the way you are doing it is exactly how I started out.  The remotes were the big step and the apps just added the extra refinement that I always wanted with the future in mind.

I'm glad you enjoyed my previous post and I'm happy with how you have addressed this topic to create positive thought with different ideas of how new technology can affect us.

MTH and Lionel are looking for ways to get more people into the hobby. They want to sell their products (trains). If these people are kids that is even better, hoping they will become life long hobbyists. The wifi, bluetooth and Lion Chief products seem to be attracting more folks to want a train set. I would say it is working for both MTH and Lionel. 

When Lion Chief was first introduced I didn't think it was a good idea at all, boy was I wrong. I was looking at it from the wrong perspective. As others have said, the we don't know what the train makers long term plans are? That is other than to sell more trains and get more people in the hobby for continued sales. How they are going about it we don't know? At least most of us don't anyway.

I now think all these methods of control are great ideas. Personally, I still like the remotes for reasons stated above, but I have added the MTH wifi setup to my DCS system. I also have Legacy, no wifi there yet and I probably won't be adding it. Still prefer the remote there too. AS Alex said above I am also interested in computer control for my trains, like maybe a JMRI/CMRI setup as Elliot is building in his Dream/Nightmare layout thread. Currently that is a bit above my experience level, but maybe someday.

I also want to add a DCC system to my layout (separate loops or maybe even a separate layout). I am fascinated by the choice of products and versatility of the DCC systems, not to mention all the little setup things you can fiddle with. The sound on some of the newer DCC decoders is pretty amazing too. I am not sure what I think about Alexa and similar devices, still pondering those, but I can see where some might really like these things.

Anyway, I think there is a market for all of these types of control including good old fashioned conventional control. Different strokes for different folks. I have no idea if one will win out over another or if they will keep them all and continue adding to the list? I do think we have a great number of choices in O gauge today, I don't think it has ever been better and it still keeps improving. I just hope it continues!!

rtr12 posted:

MTH and Lionel are looking for ways to get more people into the hobby. They want to sell their products (trains). If these people are kids that is even better, hoping they will become life long hobbyists. The wifi, bluetooth and Lion Chief products seem to be attracting more folks to want a train set. I would say it is working for both MTH and Lionel. 

When Lion Chief was first introduced I didn't think it was a good idea at all, boy was I wrong. I was looking at it from the wrong perspective. As others have said, the we don't know what the train makers long term plans are? That is other than to sell more trains and get more people in the hobby for continued sales. How they are going about it we don't know? At least most of us don't anyway.

I now think all these methods of control are great ideas. Personally, I still like the remotes for reasons stated above, but I have added the MTH wifi setup to my DCS system. I also have Legacy, no wifi there yet and I probably won't be adding it. Still prefer the remote there too. AS Alex said above I am also interested in computer control for my trains, like maybe a JMRI/CMRI setup as Elliot is building in his Dream/Nightmare layout thread. Currently that is a bit above my experience level, but maybe someday.

I also want to add a DCC system to my layout (separate loops or maybe even a separate layout). I am fascinated by the choice of products and versatility of the DCC systems, not to mention all the little setup things you can fiddle with. The sound on some of the newer DCC decoders is pretty amazing too. I am not sure what I think about Alexa and similar devices, still pondering those, but I can see where some might really like these things.

Anyway, I think there is a market for all of these types of control including good old fashioned conventional control. Different strokes for different folks. I have no idea if one will win out over another or if they will keep them all and continue adding to the list? I do think we have a great number of choices in O gauge today, I don't think it has ever been better and it still keeps improving. I just hope it continues!!

Since this post began, I have learned so much from so many people about their thoughts on WIFI, Bluetooth, Lion Chief, and all of the other methods of controlling trains.  I have become quite educated as to the reasons and plans that go behind the methods.  You are no exception.  Thank you for your insight and thoughts on this.  I've learned that the companies are at this for more than just profit.  I have also discovered that running a train from a cell phone is sort of a silly way to go about it, but that you can use other things besides a cell phone for good reasons, has enlightened me to the whole idea.  I am going to finally post my thoughts on it tonight after I get my wife's washer and dryer hooked back up.  My train room has put her on hold.

 We took the grandson to the Big E show and the MTH booth. There was the WIFI set up to run their trains on a side display. Our grandson said to me "I know how to run that!" So I said go ahead. He went thru the app in seconds running the displayed engine and going thru it's features.

 I think moving forward, the kids of today know these phones already. So that's what they go to and use. Don't ask us older people what should be, ask these youngsters what is.

When I first met with Dave Rees, founder of BlueRail Trains in 2016, I was a devoted conventional/TMCC operator. After several conversions of OGauge locos to bluetooth, I found  it to be a unique new way to run my trains that works so well. It also allowed me to experiment with battery power which has been a very positive and highly informational experience. All this is only an opinion. Lionel, the preeminent OGauge company, settled the issue once and for all when it made a massive entrance into bluetooth in its LionChief lineup. No longer is BT a question, but a reality.

I have been reading this thread with interest.  Here are my two cents...

First, I really like the app-based systems that have evolved over the last few years for Wi-Fi and Bluetooth. The interfaces that the apps allow are allow for much more flexibility intuitive. This will hopefully bring more into the hobby. 

I am a fan of Wi-Fi. Bluetooth, based on my readings, is still buggy, though is getting better with each revision. And, for large layouts, there maybe problems with control and signal drop. That aside, I am brought to my next point...

I am, at this current point, more a fan of MTH’s Wi-Fi system over Lionel’s. MTH allows for more flexibility. You can create lash-ups, you can control Legacy/TMCC locos, and you can create a conventional control system. (Cost wise, this can add up, but now that MTH has the Explorer out [which I have a fair amount of use with], Wi-Fi cost is brought down, though Explorer functionality is limited.) Now, these are a lot of pluses for larger systems and more power users. For the smaller user, Wi-Fi is reliable (usually). You don’t need to juggle different controllers. You have one device (smartphone or tablet), and you can control many locomotives. Bluetooth is moving in this direction, but, as I said above, the flexibility is not currently there (my opinion).  

Technically, Wi-Fi can handle more data than Bluetooth. This can open up so many possibilities. This gives me hope for the future of the scale and the hobby.

Lastly, I, like so many here, am hopeful for the future.  The tech can progress and it can be scary for some.  Others may never see a need for it.  Regardless, it will be great to see where the future takes us  

- Carl