Will Conventional Budd RDCs(of same era & make) run in tandem

I would lock them in one direction then put them on the track together, but not coupled, and see if their speeds are comparable.  If there is a big speed difference they will not play well together,  If the difference is slight you can run them coupled with the faster one in front.

MPC and Post War may run together but the Conventional Classics versions were made in China and likely have different gearing. The motors may look like Pullmors but the Chinese Pullmors have metric dimensions, parts are not interchangeable with US made Pullmors. Since you already have both try running them on the same track but not coupled together and see how close they are. That goes for any other pairs of engines you have.

Pete

Norton posted:

MPC and Post War may run together but the Conventional Classics versions were made in China and likely have different gearing. The motors may look like Pullmors but the Chinese Pullmors have metric dimensions, parts are not interchangeable with US made Pullmors. Since you already have both try running them on the same track but not coupled together and see how close they are. That goes for any other pairs of engines you have.

Pete

Thanks for the info Pete...I wondered if the IMPORT pullmor was metric....question answered...all the best...joe

Danr posted:

 If the difference is slight you can run them coupled with the faster one in front.

I would put the faster one in the rear; less stress on the couplers.

In the past, I had always done it the other way around figuring you are reducing stress on the motor and gears.  With the faster loco second, in addition to pulling the train, it is also pushing the slower unit.  In this case, with 2 or 3 powered units it, probably, doesn’t make a lot of difference.

Virtually everything I run is Legacy or DCS today, so I don’t really deal with this anymore.

Everyone- thank you so much for the feedback. My question mainly pertained to the RMT Buddys which I have seen run together rather smoothly in 2 or 3 YouTube videos. I just purchased an Amtrak Buddy on EBay. Even though the Railroads don’t match(LV and Amtrak) I am looking forward to at least putting 2 locos if comparable speeds together and running them which I haven’t been able to do in the past.

I also GREATLY appreciate the feedback regarding which powered RDC should go first in the consist. I guess it will be trial and error till I figure out what works best. 

I also have, from when I was a kid, a 15107 Amtrak Vista Dome, 15100 Amtrak Danbury passenger car, 16098 Amtrak Temple passenger car whose non-protypical scale will match perfectly with the new Buddy. I had been pulling those with a 99/2000 Williams GP-9 which is probably my best/strongest engine. Likely won’t work well, but I’m even going to try running it with the Williams and above mentioned cars, just to see how it looks.

Obviously I’m very excited, hence the mini-rant. But once again, the feedback is greatly apprecaited. Once it arrives next week, I’ll share an update.

Again, my sincere gratitude for your input:

Steve

1.  100w is the low end on two motors imo. You'll have to test. Can motors would stand a better chance.  Watts and amps are what you are using more of.

2.  Again, more motors more amps. (cut the chase. Buy that ZW or ZW-L, Z4k, or even LW. If you pull a ton of lit passenger cars and/or are running 4 or more PW type motors you might need 1 ZW per line. 

3. Motor power varies, but if they are similar they will pull ok. 

Which engine leads for best performance varies. On top of "top end" you have which motor moves first to worry about too.

A lead eninge might tend to pull the trailing pilot off of the rails in tight curves for steam. E.g. an American 4-4-0 (general), with its pilot way forward of the divers flanges, #1 pulling the #2 nose sideways levers #2 hard into over streering to the point of inside derail. (you gotta pull at the lead truck, not the pilot beam/frame )  The wheel slip, pilot truck tracking, and slack characteristics make the better puller at #2 my choice.(they start at the same voltage. #2 is faster at 12v and has 1 car better traction. Reversed, the lead wheelslips more. Combined, a double head outpulls the same two engines run alone; 2 cars more double headed.

Another trick, if you dont mind a tether between cars is wiring motors in series; which basically syncs each of a motors 3 poles to each other. It changes the character of how two motors pull, dramatically cutting top speed, making the throttle less responsive/less jumpy, and greatly increasing low end torque. 

I have two powered PW Budd cars that I tethered together so they are both controlled by the front unit's e-unit. They run great and the tandem pair became an awesome puller. The wiring from the e-unit out to the two motors is the same as if both motors were on the same frame (i.e F3s, FMs etc). 

Roger

I have two RMT Buddies that I always run coupled together, despite a speed difference between the two. It works fine.

I've had two RMT RDC Budd cars for many years.  They were made to run together or apart.  There are several switches on the bottom to make changes for the way you want to run them.  The headlights & rear red lights can be changed also, for the way they are run.  You can run them in any direction or position in the consist & the lights can change automatically.

D.

Adriatic posted:

1.  100w is the low end on two motors imo. You'll have to test. Can motors would stand a better chance.  Watts and amps are what you are using more of.

2.  Again, more motors more amps. (cut the chase. Buy that ZW or ZW-L, Z4k, or even LW. If you pull a ton of lit passenger cars and/or are running 4 or more PW type motors you might need 1 ZW per line. 

3. Motor power varies, but if they are similar they will pull ok. 

Which engine leads for best performance varies. On top of "top end" you have which motor moves first to worry about too.

A lead eninge might tend to pull the trailing pilot off of the rails in tight curves for steam. E.g. an American 4-4-0 (general), with its pilot way forward of the divers flanges, #1 pulling the #2 nose sideways levers #2 hard into over streering to the point of inside derail. (you gotta pull at the lead truck, not the pilot beam/frame )  The wheel slip, pilot truck tracking, and slack characteristics make the better puller at #2 my choice.(they start at the same voltage. #2 is faster at 12v and has 1 car better traction. Reversed, the lead wheelslips more. Combined, a double head outpulls the same two engines run alone; 2 cars more double headed.

Another trick, if you dont mind a tether between cars is wiring motors in series; which basically syncs each of a motors 3 poles to each other. It changes the character of how two motors pull, dramatically cutting top speed, making the throttle less responsive/less jumpy, and greatly increasing low end torque. 

Thank you @Adriatic . Don’t think I’m willing to run a tether- YET. If I had 2 powered Budds of the same make with the same motor and from the same RR(I.e. if I pick up another RMT LV or Amtrak Buddy or another Lionel PW B&O Budd- id consider it). Also, thank you for the comments regarding wheel slip because that’s something I’ll have to be aware of regardless of what I’m running conventionally regarding locos.

For now I think I’m just going to focus on making sure that I have the proper amount of power for running 2 engines of similar speeds on one track. If I’m reading what you said correctly,100 watts will just barely cover 2 locos. What you said about more motors=more amps is clear. When you say can motors “stand a better chance”, do you mean that having can motors will require less amps? From my own observations, that’s the case. That said- will 2 locos with dual can motors( specifically 2 Buddys), assuming there are no other lit cars or accessories, in GENERAL be covered by 100 watts? 

Obviously, I know none of us ever no before until we test it ourselves. The said,  anyone’s own experiences will be helpful. If I were to run a consist that was: Williams GP-9(dual cans), lightedWilliams metroliner dummy, RMT Buddy(dual cans), and 3 lit Amtrak cars. I feel a KW would work? I currently could purchase a KW or ZW( $70 and $100, respectively) and also have a V that was not repaired properly. Would the type V, if working properly with its 150 watts and 6-24 output, work?

Im sorry to bombard everyone with these questions but in all of your responses I’m always learning more than what I have asked which is seriously just awesome to add to my mental library.

Answer to one of my above questionsA the Williams GP-9 is so much more powerful than my current Buddy that it most certainly wouldn’t work. Did put the Williams in front of my PW 400 and it didn’t look bad ran rather smoothly. Will keep you updated once my Amtrak Buddy arrives this week. Only worry- I think the Amtrak 5133 Buddy is one of the earlier Buddys, hopefully that doesn’t affect things like a la an early BEEP on switches stalling. Not that this specific problem would be a concern based on the length of any Buddy but hopefully the motors are still similar in how they operate.

EDITED TO CHANGE Bssl to BEEP in the 2nd to last sentence

  Can motors stand a better chance because of the often lower amp use, is correct.  Id have trouble double heading some locos with a 1033.

  I have an E-33 pulmore that won't even run a 1033. I have two can motor steamers that couldn't be run tandem on a 1033, but I also have two pulmore Generals that love double heading on a 1033 with five passenger cars..... it depends on the locos, but the fact a 1033 doesn't have the guts to run a single, good running, hard pulling pulmore well tells you something.   

  In comparison, I have a 1032 also. There are 4 post war locos that the 1032 wont run, and your only looking at about 10-15w difference.  Still double heads those Generals just fine.

@Adriatic thank you for the input, especially pertinent since I just picked up a restored KW today that, IMO, was a good deal. It's funny you mention the 1033 and how it works for you with some engines but not as well for others. As I've gained more transformers and added or subtracted some variables from my layout, I've noticed it can be rather inconsistent. When people say to buy a transformer that exceeds your needs, I think the 1033 is probably right at the, "If you are about to get into this hobby and your loop runs a single pulmor or dual-can with 2 lamps and 1 large tower light, you've hit the limit."

What I've noticed in a short test period with the KW

Set-up 1 KW posts A-U powering B&O consist of 3 lit cars and 6 non-powered cars(7 bulbs total- 3 in the loco, 3 in dummy, and one in the caboose) as well as powering 2 street lamps(a 6-2170 and a 1950s Flyer)- the engine has never run so effortlessly! If my calculations are correct, this draws about 59-60 watts. This watt calculation is my most accurate as I know the pulmor motor is about 30, the light bulbs in the budds are 3.37 watts each at 14 volts, and the street lamps are about 2-3 watts.

Set-up 2 KW powering the above plus a second loop via posts B-U consisting of: 254e(2 bulbs), 610 pullman, 2 light-prewar lithos, and 2 more street lamps. Went fine, slightly noticeable need to turn the throttle up a bit for the B&O, but not by much. This adds about 45 watts(I have no idea what a prewar motor draws- I just used 30). So that's sitting at 105 watts which is exactly 60% of the 190 watts of my KW. I know a lot of variables go into the actual output(wire gauge, has the train picked up speed or momentum, temperature in the area in which the transformer is operating, layout size, etc...) however, the fact that both trains ran well at 14-16 volts(B&O) 14 plus or minus 1 volts(254e), I'd say my transformer was well-serviced as was stated when I purchased it. That said, for some reason I preferred how the 254e loop ran when on my 1033, so I tried set-up 3

Set up 3: KW posts A-U powering B&O and posts B-U powering: RMT Buddy, 7 cars(none with lights), 2 street lamps, and one yard light- this adds(again- no idea what dual cans draw but I read 2 to 3 amps, so I multiplied that by 14 volts) 64 watts. Thus, I'm at about 124 watts. This arrangement seemed to cause me to have to increase the voltage to the B&O to 16 or higher but the Buddy consist ran much better than when hooked to the 1033, did not have to run either close to 18 volts, however..

So, despite buying the KW to run 2 locos, I think I'm going to run the Buddy with my 100 watt 8b and my 254e with my 1033, pending further testing. However, considering I have a new loco on the way, maybe this was meant to be? 

I post the above hoping that someone else finds it useful some day. Wattage sources based on the 1954 Lionel manual, Olsen's TTP and then looking up the watts for the bulbs online. 

Originally posted by STEVERFROMPA:

I'm a huge Budd RDC fan.

Well if you are, you need one of these!

PRRHORSESHOECURV Thats an absolute beauty.  Those 3rd rail by Sunset have always caught my eye but they've proven rather elusive and my largest curves are o-31 until I expand my layout. The fact that its an Amtrak(one of my top 3 favorite RRs) makes it even better. Hence why I just bought an Amtrak RMT Buddy on ebay, I love RMT and their buddys, but still. You've given me something to shoot for down the road. Not sure if you're actually offering to sell or just wetting my whistle haha, nonetheless, thanks for sharing! 

  More to compare, I have an 18b (180w or 190w?) and I have a KW (180w).

    I find the KW stronger. The AF has some trouble with two big locos, the KW laughs at them. (the AF is funner to use....if you screw it down because its lighter than it looks and slides around when I move the handles fast ).

 The AF also randomly blows whistles and turns the bell off and on on new engines (O gauge).  I think its the bi-metal build of the dead-man handles occasionally, randomly, rectfies some some ac waves to dc.   I only run PW with no whistle in the 18b.

@Adriatic I'm happy you mentioned the 18b. I LOVE the KW, finally got to spend some time with it last night, after wiring everything properly, it has proven to be more than enough to handle my needs on both of my bigger loops and does so with ease.

The shop where I bought the KW also had 2 18bs or 2 30bs for very reasonable prices. I might end up getting these after your post... 

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Originally posted by STEVERFROMPA:

I'm a huge Budd RDC fan.

Well if you are, you need one of these!

I am, I have:

   The AFs are good looking and the deadman handles action is killer. I picked one up for $60 on a fluke in need of power, plans to sell it again, but I like it too much now. 

  With any of these, check the rollers asap if you haven't already. Pull the handles, four screws, pull the top straight up.  (the 18b uses rollers too)..Do it before you buy. Anything but the windings can be fixed .

  If your happy with the KW that's cool. It's plenty for me too, lol. Just keep in mind the ZW is to the KW what the KW is to the 1033.   With big locos you'll still "feel" a slight difference in throttle response in running two vs just one loco;lights dimmed by draw; etc.. That nearly vanishes on a ZW. (an led light or dedicated power supply is actually best per line & for fighting acc lights dimming, pulsing, etc). I guess a 125w LW for each line would be the most power per throttle (though nothing stops you from using all of a KW or ZW's wattage on just one throttle).

  Three lines is "comfortable". Four kinda becomes work.... when one derails you only have two hands ready for an emergency shut down

@Adriatic That’s the price that I would be buying it at as well, seems like a good deal.  the place from which I boughtthe KW, and maybe possibly buy the 18b was  run by one of the biggest collectors/walking data base I’ve ever met and he never put engines, transformers or accessories out that he hasn’t serviced himself which Is why I didn’t hesitate to buy the KW. The guy knew his stuff. That said, itd probably by best practice to check the rollers. Is it “easy” to check these rollers on a KW? Just tried taking apart an old AF 22004 because it the part they goes across the rollers wasn’t making contact. Well, let’s say I wasn’t able to put Humpty Dumpty together again which is why I’m weary of checking the KW on my own.

  You only need to lift the top off.  Like I said, pull the handles and 4 screws, lift top straight up. ( maybe bulbs too..I forget which, but on one the bulbs need to come out.) 

What did you take apart? I'm thinking the AF was similar except for lifting the deadman handes bulbs, etc.

I've changed rollers without ever removing the arms.

The rollers size is important, as well as if it rolls well. If they dont spin well there will be flat spots and they wear quick.  They are dirt cheap. Order some brushes, or maybe bushings and bulbs for fav. locos to spend $10 They all use the same rollers AF&Lionel alike. 

  Actually; start a new thread with some pics and I bet we could get the AF assembled.(let me know if you do )