Williams F-3 won't run correctly

Look very carefully at the wires on the motors where they go up and over the top of the motor and under the flywheels. Sometimes these are rubbing and wear through the insulation and short the motor. If you have some jumper wires, run the engine without it being on the track and see if both motors are running and at the same speeds. Its possible that they are plugged into the wrong place on the board and working against each other. If you can't do that, take the shell off the engine and run the engine and watch the flywheels carefully to see if both are even, or one dragging.

Rob

Do other engines run well on your layout? If yes that eliminates your track work. If no then you may need to clean your track and check connections.

Check the pick up rollers and look for any wayward bare wire that may be shorting when engine is moving.

Also get yourself some jumper wires and with the body off and engine off the track see if both motors are responding at the same time. 

franktrain

You might be over-taxing your CW-80 with the engines and lighted passenger cars.  The flashing green light indicates an overload on the transformer.  When the overload occurs, the transformer will roll back power and thus your train will run slower.

Earl

You know, Earl may be on to something here. I believe that the CW-80 transformer outputs are adjustable. You may not be getting enough juice to run the Williams. The headlights on Williams are always dim unless you change to series wiring or swap out the bulb for a lower voltage one. You may very well be over taxing the transformer with lighted cars, especially if you have the lowest wattage unit. Figure 3 watts per bulb. How many cars are you using? Are these heavy aluminum cars? Can you get your hands on another transformer? My old 2036 engine would cause the light to blink on my CW-80(I no longer use one) so it doesn't take much current draw.

Rob

Is your CW80 one of the early more trouble prone versions?  I know when I had my layout with a CW80, it did not like running engines with dual motors at all.  It struggled with them, they ran slow, lights were dim as the transformer didnt have the umph to run it.   A friends newer CW80 would do ok, but mine would not.  If you have a different transformer, you might try that as well, just to eliminate the CW80 from the equation.  I have also seen new Williams with bad reverse boards, of which Williams promptly sent new ones for me to install.  Mike

I also feel that your problem may be with the CW-80 transformer. If your F3 checks out fine, the transformer may be the culprit. I have a CW-80 that came with a set and I use it only to power accesories. I was not very pleased with it's ability to run any dual motored diesels or passenger trains. For my layout I purhased a new MTH Z-4000 which has plenty of oomph to run my dual motored diesels and passenger trains. I know they are a bit pricey at $400, but how much do we spend on our trains and then expect an 80 watt transformer to do the job?

Cobrabob.

A dual motored Williams/WBB diesel only uses 20 watts at 12 volts with a medium consist and is moving at a real fast clip at that setting.  The clue here is the light intensity in neutral.

There is a either a medium-to-high resistance short in the locomotive like a pinched/abraded motor wire, a faulty motor, or physical binding in one of the motor trucks.  The reverse unit is rated at 6 amps, so as soon as the short approaches 5 amps draw on the CW, it will "fold-back".

The first remedy would of course to rely on the WBB warranty.  

If you want to go further before returning the unit, take the cab off, make some cursory checks on the wiring(check for stray strands, etc.), and remove the motors(one screw each) from the trucks.  Put the loco on the tracks and observe the motors' operation and current draw.

If they are fine now, inspect the motor trucks... they should now be freewheeling and roll easily.

Reinstall the motors and be sure they are seated properly in the "keyholes" of the chassis and trucks(this is infrequently the root of the problem - Motors not seated correctly causing binding) and replace the one screw(each truck).  Test again... and report back.

So far, none of this should be any reason for a voiding of the warranty.

 "The clue here is the light intensity in neutral".

Not with Williams Rob. Most Williams only cruise at 7-8 volts and that is a good clip. Williams puts 14 volts bulbs in their locos. All Williams have dim lights at run speed because of this. 

Rob

I said nothing about the light intensity at operating speed, and I can't control what the original poster said.

This means that there is no short when in neutral, and the problem is in the motor, motor wiring, trucks, or reverse unit.

If everything but the reverse unit can be eliminated, or a defective motor or truck is confirmed, then back to WBB it goes.

Gents,

Definitely appreciate the feedback!  I forgot to mention that I had no problems with one of my other engines (PE 1225 from the 31960 set) operating with the same consist on the track so any issues with the track/transformer should seem to be eliminated. 

My suspicions lie along the lines of what Rob posted here.

I'll take a good look through everyone's post and let you know if I find anything out.  Thanks!

Jeff 

Jeff,

   Definitely go down the road Rob recommended, however also take all the rolling stock off the track and power the engine alone to see what happens. 

PCRR/Dave

Jeff:

Welcome to the Forum. It is nice to see another Forum member from Maine. What part of Maine do you live?

I would still try a different transformer, if you can.  The Polar Express engine that you mentioned in your second post only has one motor.  Your F3 has two motors, thus will be drawing more current.  Once the current reaches the limit in the CW-80, the internal circuitry will reduce the current flow, and the engine will run slower.

Earl

Earl, at 12 volts and flying around the track with a nominal consist, the WBB dual motored diesels draw less than 1 amp, about 18-20 watts. They all have very low current DC can motors, and the more recent ones have small motors at that.

A 2343 type twin motor Lionel diesel will draw just over 4 amps, slipping, on a CW at full throttle.

Earl,

  You make a good point, and this is why I believe CW-80 are a waste of time.

At least invest in an old KW, that way this is not even a question.

PCRR/Dave

I am able to run any locomotive that I have using a CW-80. This includes many 2 motor locomotives,  post-war with pullmor motors and modern units too. These also run with several illuminated coaches behind them.  As has been mentioned above, the modern WBB twin motor locomotives have a very low normal power consumption, so I very much doubt that the transformer is at fault here. It sounds to me as though there is a fault in the motors or drivetrain of the locomotive.

This is a very shortsighted position, especially since the KW(in particular) has such a limited functionality when it comes to accessories with very restrictive fixed taps.

For the price of one good KW(10 amps output, continuous), you can have three CW-80s, which will provide a continuous 15 amps collectively, to control three complete trains with whistle & bell activation... PLUS three infinitely adjustable, programmable accessory outputs. 

A KW does not even come close.

I am not saying that the CW-80 is definitely the problem.  It is a standard troubleshooting technique to eliminate the easiest solutions first and trying the engine with a more powerful transformer is certainly easier than going into an extensive search for the problem.  I also think the CW-80 is still the most likely cause.

Most shorts result in a go/no-go situation and they are often erratic.  His description of the problem suggests a consistent high current draw.  The CW-80 limits the current available.  Therefore, just check the operation wIth a more powerful transformer.  If the problem persists, we can go from there.

I am also not criticizing the CW-80.  It was designed as a low power transformer for starter sets and it does it fulfills that requirement well.

Earl

Earl the original poster said he can operate THE SAME CONSIST with the polar express engine without any problems. He also says the unit will operate by itself but never at full speed. It does not set the green light UNTIL he puts the engine and consist together. No body has asked about the gauge of the wiring to the track although I don't think that is the problem either as problems would show with the Polar Express and consist. I think your idea of running it with another transformer or layout is a good idea as that would put the problem directly into the engine for sure.

Ron 

If you are inclined to replace the transformer. I have a couple of NICE ZW's that I will be getting rid of soon.

Gene

wheeler359@gmail.com

Ok Gents,

Back again after further testing.  Ran through Rob's recommendations:

• Both motors increase in speed when decoupled from their respective worm gears and the headlight brightness increases proportionally as well to full bright (as it did in Neutral).  So with "No Load" on the motors they appeared to work as one would expect - HOWEVER the front motor had a loud squeal at 35% throttle (indicated on the CW80).  Above and below this speed it ran smooth and quiet - but going up past and back down through that 35% point it squealed.
• Also ran the trucks back and for on their own with no motors attached and they moved freely without any binding.
• Put everything back together (flywheels turned with the drive wheels) and got it to run by itself fairly well, but it each time I switch direction it initially gave me the "Overload" flashing Green light on the CW80 for the first foot or two of travel.  Sometimes it would bog down regardless.  Also had enough track to place the lighted-passenger set on the track but NOT attached to the diesel to test with a current draw associated with the lighted cars.  Still operated pretty well. 
• Tested it with my lighted-passenger set attached as a consist and it immediately bogged down.  Taking one car off the track at a time increased the speed of the diesel with the same throttle setting (as expected, but probably more pronounced than a normal engine would demonstrate).
• Attached a 5 car consist of regular cars (no lights or draw on current) and it still bogged down with that load. 

So my conclusion at this point is that I've got a bad motor or something electrically related to the propulsion of the engine.

Appreciate everyone's inputs here today, if this post gives anyone any further ideas feel free to share, but it's probably time to contact Customer Service at Williams down in Philly.  Thanks again for all the input.

Jeff

W/WBB usually recomends NINTY WATTS for ONE TWO MOTOR diesel!

My cw has problems with certain engine's too, I would try a different transformer as well. Mark

Which is interesting, their transformer is only 80 watts.

Gentlemen,

   I do beleive if he switches his transformer his problems might go away.  The reason I suggesed a KW is that they are old time dependable transformers, a ZW

from one of the members would be a great pick up also.

Many CW-80's have problems, his might be one of them, try changing the transformer if you have another one.  

PCRR/Dave

I use an MTH Z-1000 or a Lionel postwar ZW with my Williams and have no problems, so it is very possible the CW-80 is "the culprit."

Try running your Williams with a differant transformer then the CW-80 and see what happens!

Lee F.

I would run this with a different Transformer. Take it to a friends l;ayout. I would try all this before I blame the engine.

There has been many posts over on the Bachman forum where they told guys to do just that. The CW80 has caused a lot people to think their engines have a problem.

Rob

Everyone,

One last follow up here.  Was able to test another Williams dual motor engine (FB-1) on my layout with the CW80 last night and it had identical issues as my NH F-3.  It would seem it IS the transformer and not the engine. 

Again, thanks for all the insight and tips on testing my engine - I learned a lot over the last few days.  Now to get the proper power to the track....

Jeff

Here is a Williams dual motor Trainmaster pulling 6 Lionel passenger cars, 5 lighted with bulbs, with a CW-80, just a few minutes ago.  The green light has flashed quickly in the past, but didn't for this video.

It may be that your CW-80 has a lower current setting that trips the over-current protection.  The units are mass-produced and I have no idea how large the variance for max current is.  You could also have a failure in your transformer preventing it from reaching max power.

Earl

One more check - do you have anything connected to the accessory posts on the CW?

Fud,

   I know Rod is fond of the CW-80 and he has one that works well,

however with the poor quality control and continous changes made to these CW-80's I still recommed you get a transformer at least as large as a KW or even a ZW, and test run your train.   I am still betting your trouble will be eliminated with a higher quality more powerful transformer.  I have given at least 8 CW-80 transformers away, acquiring them as parts of my FasTrack deals.  Next time I get one I will set it aside for Rob, no charge.

PCRR/Dave

No accessories attached Rob. 

Yep - will have to try a different transformer.  I have access to a couple of ZWs back at my folks' house in Ohio, but I live in Maine.  Might take me a while to get to them with the distance involved, but will see what I can work out in the future.  Thanks again!

Fud

Try running the engine from the accessory posts instead of the track posts and see if you can duplicate the problem.

Hi

I have done a test for you with an F3 pulling 4 lighted cars

Test 1- using PM1 and 10 amps of power

Uses between 3- 3.8 amps cruises at fastest safe speed with 8V on the track

Test 2 - using CW80

Runs at full speed with 8V, (don't have amp meter on this circuit)

All features work as they should, overload lamp never flashes

I know a lot of people don't rate the CW80, I have three and they all work as they should, the point is they are designed to pull one loco and some lighted cars so they will easily overload with a faulty rig.

My take on this is a massive current drain somewhere so perhaps a faulty engine, back to Willams dealer I think for a check.

The pointer that makes me think its not the CW80 is that the F3 AA set only pulls about 20-24 W at full speed and also you say that you can run another engine without any problems, if this is the case it does point to the big current draw that is occurring with the F3

I just actually watched the video online and my CW does flash at the very beginning.

Otherwise, I get about the same readings as you do - about 22-23 watts. 

"The pointer that makes me think its not the CW80 is that the F3 AA set only pulls about 20-24 W at full speed and also you say that you can run another engine without any problems, if this is the case it does point to the big current draw that is occurring with the F3"

He said it still happens with another engine. Where do you get that he said its ok running other engines?

"One last follow up here.  Was able to test another Williams dual motor engine (FB-1) on my layout with the CW80 last night and it had identical issues as my NH F-3.  It would seem it IS the transformer and not the engine." 

Rob