Wiring MTH Cantelever Signal

I use my own relays,shown here for various accessories

 

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Dale H

 

 

John - I wired my MTH Cantelever to an insulated rail - I would like to know what the advantage is to using the relay.  I wish I had Dale's knowledge of circuitry.

 

Regards,

Paul

Yes you can wire the cantilevered signal to a Atlas O snap relay. That is how I have my signals wired...............Roger

Some accessories can be wired directly to the outside rail. However a relay offers many advantages. A relay coil uses very little current,typically 1 watt or less. With a DC coil and capacitor, you will get smooth operation compared to the circuit being made by train wheels directly to the load and much less arcing.  In return the relay contacts can switch one or more separate circuits and heavy loads. It can not only make a circuit, like the direct insulted rail method, it can also break a circuit or do both at the same time,such as change a block signal from red to green. This can not be done directly off the insulated rail,or at least very easily.

 

A relay can also be coupled with a timer to do timing circuits. With multi contact relays and a common timer,most any function in model railroading can be accomplished. Some examples are shown here

 

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Relays can also be used for circuit logic and total automation power distribution. The below board for example routes 2 loops of trains. On each loop 3 trains are staged at one end of a layout following each other using 4 blocks. After the train runs the loop it returns to the staging area,then the next train goes. Each block uses relays configured as 8PDT. When 3 of 4 train occupy a block a timer is triggered on another board so a time lag is created between when one train stops and the next one starts. Another block relay provides about 2 seconds of reduced power before the train stops. The relay contacts also eliminate roller jumping between blocks. Click on photo to enlarge

 

 

 

 

The basic circuit is described here for 2 trains. While it can be done without relays the below method is more reliable and smoother and allows for more features.

 

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowThread?id=612

 

 The next board compliments the first one. First it sets the time between train stops. It also replaces the transformer throttle and accelerates the train in 10 voltage steps. Voltage reduction steps is accomplished with diodes and 4PDT relay configurations. It also automatically blows the whistle (or bell) at crossings or upon start up,also accomplished with relays and diodes.  Whistles pattern blows long,long,short,then long,accomplished with relays and timing capacitors. Station stops are easily done and deceleration voltage reduction is done in 4 steps for realistic operation. Speed can also be  automatically increased up grades and reduced down grades if desired. The stop duration is set by one timer,and the acceleration rate by the other timer. The dials are graduated in seconds or minutes.

 

As complicated as this may appear it is really simple switching done with relays and timers.

 

Dale H

Harleylito,

 

I would like to be able to wire my MTH Cantelever signal without a relay. Would you explain how you would wire it and be able to still switch it between green and red.

 

John Henry

Roger W,

 

Thanks for the snap relay reply.

 

John Henry

John - after looking at my signal I found that it was a crossing signal not a cantilever signal.  The crossing signal just has alternating red lights so I think your signal will have different wiring.  Sorry I couldn't help you -

 

Regards,

Paul

Dale,

 

Thanks for the explanation of relays and for the drawings.

 

John Henry

John Henry

 

To do the  2 block signals you would need 2, SPDT contacts configurations. These can be on relays or the old Lionel contractors which work on weights or a TAD having these contacts. The Atlas snap relay mentioned is only for momentary power coil activation I think,so that would be a manual switching operation by the user,not automated..I assume you want the block signals to work automatically.

 

Dale H

Dale,

 

Thanks,

 

When you refer to block signals, I assume that you are referring to being able to control the Cantelever signal by activating it as it enters a block. If you say a snap signal won't work then I guess I am back to getting a MTR- 12T from Train Electronics. I don't know the wiring well enough to buy and wire the relay and resisters in your drawings. I am still confused however because Roger W said he used a snap relay.

 

John Henry

John Henry

 

If you provide a link to the snap relay and the MTR 12,I will look at it. i am not familiar with them off hand.  If you get stuck,I could send  you a couple of relays at my cost. I would need to know what transformer you are using,I have 12 and 24 volt coil ones. To work the relays you will have to make outside insulated rails.

 

Dale H

I wired mine to the real trax switch contacts.  when the switch is activated the signal changes.  I have one signal at each end of a passing siding.

 

Mort

 

Dale H,
here's the link, you also get it if you Google MTR-12T I think you will need to cut and paste it.

 

.http://shop.trainelectrics.com/Relay-MTR-12T-12-volt-MTR12-T.htm

 

John Henry

John Henry, I use Atlas #200 snap relays for my Atlas O switches. I use the #200 snap relay on MTH's dwarf signals (30-11011), cantilevered signal (30-11009), and block signal (30-11005). I use the snap relay with the signals to indicate the position of the Atlas O switch. I also use in conjunction with the snap relay an Atlas O illuminated deluxe switch box ( item #57)........................Rogerw

Can someone explain the benefit of using a snap relay for switch operation instead of just a #57 switch controller? 

 

Paul

Harleylito, The reason why I use a Atlas O #200 snap relay is because I can see from a distance what position my crossover switches is in. On Atlas O # 57 switch machine, you can move the lever from red to green (or vise-versa), but if you don't press the little black button at the bottom of the switch, the switch will not move. The way I have my MTH cantilevered signals wired up, it doesn't make any difference if the Atlas O switch lever is moved or not, The lights in the cantilevered signals won't change until you push the button on the switch machine. This gives me the true direction of the switch without relying on the Atlas O switch machine. I hope that my answer answers your question......................Rogerw.

Neil,

 

Thank you, you are correct with your comments.

 

John

We've switched over to 12-volt SPDT automotive relays with sockets I picked up from All Electronics. I feed them off a 10-volt AC source through a bridge rectifier. The "common" AC lead goes to the insulated rail. The output from the rectifier is sufficient to energize the coils on the relays.

 

I feed the MTH signals "backward" running the hot through the black wire and letting the relay connect either the green or red wire to ground. This allows me to switch out the MTH signal for a Z-stuff signal if necessary -- connecting the yellow wire where the red from the MTH was connected.

Dale,

 

I certainly appreciate all your efforts to help me and give me a clearer understanding of what can and cannot be done. I am more comfortable using the MTR-T12 relay in spite of the higher cost. Thank you,

 

John 

Is this it?  If not can you provide an AE stock number?  Thanks.

 

Pete

No problem John

 

Just a word of caution,your zw can put out 20 volts,which will result in 28 volts on the relay coil,since it has a capacitor,if driving the relay off of it you can burn out the coil if you accidentally raise it way above the 12 volts. This happens more than you think. Set throttle at around 10 volts to work it.. I would use the 24 volt version of it and use full throttle.

 

Dale H

Those are good,but keep in mind ,that with 88 ohm coils each relay coil uses 2 watts of power. Power hungry for a relay but no big deal if just using a few of them. I used them here,made up a circuit for someone where price was a consideration.The whole cost was $25 as I remember for 2 PB timing circuits

 

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Dale H

Dale,

 

Thanks for the caution, I generally run signals, etc off either my post for lights or my post for accessories which I keep around 10 volts. If I go to a 24 volt version do I have to keep the volt setting above 10 or 12 ?

 

John 

That's the one. The socket for it is here. As Dale H stated, the coil resistance is low so you're talking about close to two watts of power per relay, but they're easy to work with. I've used other relays, but they start getting expensive when you add the sockets to the cost -- they're as much as the relays. These came in at around $4.50 for each relay/socket combination. I figured 150ma per energized relay wasn't that bad and the price was good.

I use DC relays from Radio shack along wih a 12V DC power supply also from Radio Shack. I use one relay per MTH Signal and or signal head if more than one on the mast.

 

The +DC line from the power supply runs all around the layout and is connected to the DC+ side of each relay.The DC - wire is connected to the layout common ground. The relay is activated by a car crossing an insolated rail connected to the DC - side of the relay. The relay connected to the MTH signal does the rest of the work

This always works for me.

 

Richard

The coil voltage and switched loads are or can be separate circuits. 10 volts AC should work a 12 volt DC relay. 18 volts AC in should work a 24VDC relay. The input voltage is boosted by the capacitor. I guess you could have the accessory circuit share with the coil circuit by hooking them together.

 

Dale H

What is the difference between the MTR-12T relay and the DPDT-1 relay from Train Electrics. 

Thanks.

 

 

I received my MTR-12T relays from Trainelectrics.com and they work very well on my MTH crossing gates and cantelever signals. They are easy to understand and install (directions included). I realize there are less expensive relays but these have turned out to worth the cost for someone like me not as familiar with relays, resistors etc. These have easy screw connections, a mounting bracket and are made here in the US.

 

Thanks to everyone for their input.

 

John

Hi John, do you have a picture of your MTR 12's in action?  Sounds like from above going with MTR 24 is better/safer?  I'm running 2 KW's and the line these are on is usually at full throttle for switches, etc.  I'm wiring up a Lionel 450 Signal Bridge + other signals.

 

Mark

Mark,


Attached should be a photo of 2 MTR-12 T,s. I have a cantilever signal at each end of a tunnel with 2 tracks. I have them wired to my lighting post which I keep at only 10 volts. Mfg. recommends 10 to 14 volts. Hope this helps.


John