wiring problem

Since the track power as supplied through the MTH DCS TIU should be nothing but a constant 18 volts AC, I suspect there is something wrong in your set up of the program of the TIU or you remote controller. Go through the TIU manual and make sure you got the TIU connected right and the remote programmed right.

The manual is hard to get through and to understand. There is a optional book you can buy, "The DCS Companion 3RD Edition" that makes the manual easier to understand.

I have seen the same thing and it is usually because the engines were removed from the layout without going through the shutdown procedure and they come on where they left off the last time they were on the track

The bottom line is that it is not the wiring but the software or your operational procedures. That's my best guess.

LDBennett

Sounds like they are coming up in conventional.  Try another TIU channel.

Gene Anstine

Not sure if this helps but I have had issues before when 2 engines were on the track and I was adding one of them in on the remote control. When adding an engine I find that you can have only that engine on the track or the DCS remote will add in all engines under one engine setting.

Lee Fritz

That's why it's posted to use a programming track to add engines.

On the layout, I suspect the signal is weak? or the engines have issues. To rule out the layout causing the problem would be my first choice. Sometimes it can be something simple drawing signal down. I have some cars that needs chokes for example. Sometimes it's just too much track for a channel. Make sure the signal is strong on that channel. Barry's book has useful suggestions on guides to follow for wiring.

It could be an issue of available power vs. the number of engines. If the engines demand more power, even sitting without being started up, the engines may miss the watchdog signal. This will cause them to come up ion conventional mode.

Remove all but one engine from the track and power on the tracks. If all is well, repeat adding back one engine at a time until the problem presents itself.

This and a whole lot more is all in “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at OGR’s web store!

Maybe i did not explain my problem correctly. My problem does not have to do with how many engines I have on the track. Any and all engines I have on the outside loop will start up after about 15 seconds power is applied to the track. They will not move in conventule mode. i have to call each engine one at a time and shut it down. Once all engines are shut down I can start up the ones I want to run. Now every things works ok. Until I turn power off. Then its starts all over a gain. Not all the time will the engines shut down when I call then up I will get the message that engine is not on the track it take several times trying to call up each engine. I do not have this problem on the inside loop which is seperated with insulated pins.

I have a similar layout like yours...both my loops have insulating pins(one each) plus sidings. I start (15) ps2 ps3 engines at once. Occasionally i have one ps3 engine(it is a member engine in a 4 engine MU) fire up in conventional out of the bunch obviously missing the WD signal. All i do is cycle the TIU off and back on ,i wait about a minute and all is well. I do not have to cycle my 2 remotes..i just leave them on.

I think it that you are removing power before shutting down the engines. DCS does funny things if you do not exactly follow the protocol which requires shutting the engines down before removing power. In reality, the way I understand it, the directions to the engine are actually in the TIU program which sends commands to the engines. The problem may be you need to do a system reset but before you do try shutting the engine down before removing the power. Also "The DCS Companion Edition 3" may help to understand the operation of DCS better.

LDBennett

perhaps you need to examine the wiring for the outside loop. It needs at least one joint that insulates the loop from completing a continuous loop.

Do you have that somewhere? if no, make one and then test the layout and power up again.

if that doesn't solve it, then you need more blocks or sections that are insulated from one another with separate power feeds from the TIU or terminal block.

Whatever you did for the inside loop works. Do the same for the outside loop.

Can you pencil the track plan and your wiring scheme and post a picture of it? length and width of layout would be helpful.

No sense going to other levels of troubleshooting until it is confirmed that the wiring for the DCS signal is good.

it seems that you do suspect wiring from the title of the post.

MOONMAN:

Please explain not making a continuous loop????

I have two loops, all continuous electrically with four scattered power feed points from one TIU channel powered by a single power brick and I have no problems. In "The DCS Companion" it says nothing about no continuous loops (??). I can agree with isolating blocks if you are using more than one power source in which case the blocks have to be isolated but not for a single power source.

The details of the questioner layout are not clear to me but it seems that it is a single power source (???).

LDBennett

LD,

It is my understanding that the DCS signal performs better if it doesn't run into itself. Hence the need for at least one isolation point. The isolated blocks for DCS are for a better signal rather than power distribution, but accomplish both.

Do you have 10's all around?

Doesn't the DCS BIBLE recommend isolated blocks every 10-12 track joints or feet of track with it's own set of power feeds?

MOONMAN:

I don't find that in either the DCS manual or "The DCS Companion". And yes I have 10's everywhere. I feed the outer loop in two places and the inner loop in two places and the loops are NOT isolated from each other. I have NO isolation "pins" or track sections anywhere. My track is all MTH RealTrax. My source for track power is an MTH Brick. I have the DCS TIU and AIU.

I'm an electronics engineer and I don't understand your requirement. Besides I think the questioner has a problem with the software, not the physical track and its connections. It may even be an operational problem. I have seen similar problems when the engines are not shutdown properly before power is removed (like with a derailment that flip my track circuit breaker and removes track power).

The author of "The DCS Companion" comes here and maybe he can shed some light on this situation about not closing loops. I sure cannot agree with it. But what do I know?

LDBennett

I have two engines that do the same thing--start up when powering track--routinely.  I know many others who get these "false" start-ups.  It's confounding as to why.  Everybody's set up is different.

My "fix" is this.  DCS:  I turn power on.  I press the lower left button.  I then hit the green ENG button.  I select the 3rd "softkey" with the word: "ALL" over it.  I press #6 and ALL engines power off if they aren't off already.  Life goes on.

I've discovered first hand it DOES make a HUGE difference of how many engines are "on" one channel.  I think 5 is the recommended maximum.  I use two TIU channels.  We have 15 engines total.  I can't tell you the number on either channel off hand.  I'm about to add a huge turntable--I'm going to need more TIU channels for certain.

LDBennett posted:

MOONMAN:

I don't find that in either the DCS manual or "The DCS Companion". And yes I have 10's everywhere. I feed the outer loop in two places and the inner loop in two places and the loops are NOT isolated from each other. I have NO isolation "pins" or track sections anywhere. My track is all MTH RealTrax. My source for track power is an MTH Brick. I have the DCS TIU and AIU.

I'm an electronics engineer and I don't understand your requirement. Besides I think the questioner has a problem with the software, not the physical track and its connections. It may even be an operational problem. I have seen similar problems when the engines are not shutdown properly before power is removed (like with a derailment that flip my track circuit breaker and removes track power).

The author of "The DCS Companion" comes here and maybe he can shed some light on this situation about not closing loops. I sure cannot agree with it. But what do I know?

 

LDBennett

LD, I think you are clearing the fog for me. Why do a lot of posters get wound up on creating isolated blocks when wiring for DCS? The TIU manual only has a recommendation for track feeds every 25 linear feet. No isolation.

I believe I developed the impression that the DCS signal was sensitive to a certain track structure or wiring scheme following all of the trouble shooting threads over the years. That doesn't seem to be the case, other than distance through the rail.

I'll certainly be curious to see what resolves this issue.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

Page 55 (thru 59) discusses isolated track blocks and DCS signal. Figure 13 shows isolated center rails. However, I've never had a problem with my R-T-R setup and I suspect most who buy RealTrax to expand such setups don't either and don't isolate any track.

DOUBLEDAZ:

My comments refer to a block-less two loop layout. I do not know what the questioner has but that is what I have. I understand if you supply two separate blocks from different channels of a TIU then you must isolate the blocks. I don't think that applies to the questioners problem or my layout since I have only one block through one TIU channel and less than 100 feet of track configured in two loops with two feed points per loop. I have them wired STAR with 16 gauge wire. I followed "The DCS Companion" almost to the letter. Because my layout is so small (9ft x 7 ft) I can only run two trains at a time. My max load on the DCS can only be two engines per train or four total. I have no need for blocks or multiple TIU channels. I think  isolation between loops or not closing a loop electrically does not apply to me. As for the questioner, who knows????

LDBennett

I can definitely say that isolated blocks work very well with DCS. I had several temporary layouts for a few years that were just small loops of track, maybe 4.5'x7' being the largest. I had problems with DCS such as 'Engine not on track' and some of the other errors that folks get every so often when their engines are not found or not working properly. The signals were all 9-10 all the way around when I tested for them. I thought these would be way to small to worry about the DCS Companions guidelines.

Then a couple of years ago we moved and I set up a more permanent layout that was also a little larger at 6'x16', with 2 loops of track. I wired each loop with 4 isolated blocks and used MTH terminal blocks, one for each loop, each loop on it's own TIU channel and each powered by a Lionel PH-180 brick. That was over 2 years ago and I have not yet had one DCS error message in that time. Everything works really well. About a year and a half ago I added Legacy and it works just as well as DCS. This made me a believer in having isolated blocks, even on a small layout.

I believe the DCS companion does recommend blocks of no more than 10-12 track joints. I would have to look, but I am pretty sure it's there somewhere. However, I don't recall what is said about one small loop of track, if anything, but I wired my more permanent layout according to Barry's guidelines in the DCS Companion.

Carl Machen posted:

Maybe i did not explain my problem correctly. My problem does not have to do with how many engines I have on the track. Any and all engines I have on the outside loop will start up after about 15 seconds power is applied to the track. They will not move in conventule mode. i have to call each engine one at a time and shut it down. Once all engines are shut down I can start up the ones I want to run. Now every things works ok. Until I turn power off. Then its starts all over a gain. Not all the time will the engines shut down when I call then up I will get the message that engine is not on the track it take several times trying to call up each engine. I do not have this problem on the inside loop which is seperated with insulated pins.

I believe you just have too much track for 1 channel and need to add another channel.

You can use the same power supply on the input side but the loops  must be separated by an center rail insulated pin.   Each channel has it's own signal generator so  that should fix the low signal issue.

It also sounds like you've set up a var channel in fixed mode (delay in power coming on but not for  15 seconds.) . I'm not sure what's going on there.

try adding fixed 2 first.

LD, I'm only passing on what (my edition of) the book says on those pages since you appeared to say the book didn't mention isolating blocks. The book says a single TIU channel should only be used for 12-15 blocks, those blocks should only contain 11-12 track sections and the center rail should be isolated. Ever since I bought this book I've had nothing but questions about this because while I only have 1 loop at the moment, it has more than 11-12 track sections and I've had no problems either, isolated or not.

And because of what it says, many interpret that to mean buss wiring should not be used. However, in the sections discussing adding DCS to an existing layout and modular layouts, it only says to rewire if the signal strength is low. That all suggests that most of the info is for troubleshooting when there are DCS problems and suggestions to avoid such problems altogether when wiring a new layout.

DOUBLEDAZ:

I re-read The DCS Companion section before my last post. There is no doubt directions there for isolating blocks. But why do we have blocks?

I'll not repeat what the book says but the bottom line is that it assures better operation due less lossy DCS signals, easier fault isolation, allows more trains on the layout if only a few are on any given blocks where multiple power sources are used, and allows control of each block individually. It is for really big layouts that exceed 100 feet of track. But nowhere does it say a loop of track can not close on itself electrically as was suggested in one post.

My layout is small, only runs a few engines once well within the capacity of a single power source (I know as I have tested it), and does not exceed 100 feet of track. I also see excellent DCS signal strength and rarely get error messages from my remote. But I do get them and see engines start up after an emergency power down/up sequence and when I remove power without shutting down each engine.

DCS is sometimes confusing. The terminology was invented by programmers who are famous for inventing names for processes that are not easily deciphered by english speaking peoples. The Book and the DCS manual are not organized as I would have done and things are difficult to find. Add to that my interest in Model Trains has always been building the layout and building kits so I may have longer periods between using DCS to control trains when I occasionally run them. I sometimes forget the operational procedures and do the wrong thing but less often after a couple years using DCS.

Another way to look at blocks is that blocks allow many power sources to provide power to many trains all at once. About the biggest single power supply you can readily buy, that is approved for DCS usage, is 180 watts. If you run many trains you cannot power them all from a single supply. You cannot (or should not) parallel several supplies as there will be current flowing between them which looses energy to heat that could run trains. Blocking allow multiple power sources without paralleling them. While there may be some advantage to blocking for DCS signal distribution the biggest advantage to blocking is multiple power sources to be able to more trains at once. What I believe is necessary is STAR wiring with 16 gauge twisted wire, not exceeding the 10 to 12 track section per power feed.

What could be wrong with the original poster layout? I believe it is in the DCS and it setup programing or the users failure to go through engine shutdown sequence before power removal. If it is not the latter then he needs to reset the TIU and start the setup procedure all over again making sure to follow the TIU setup instructions to the letter. Blocking a simple layout that runs only a few engines that drain the power source within its limits is nice but not necessary in my opinion. But we don't know for sure exactly what he has, do we?

LDBennett

LD, I'm not disagreeing with you or your point of view............and I'm not even addressing the OPs problem. Like I said, I merely pointed out that the book DOES address insulated blocks, contrary to your statement that it didn't, simple as that.

But, to the OPs problem, you're right, we don't have enough info. I think it's rather obvious that improper shutdown is not the problem or he'd have it on the inside loop. Engine setup also doesn't seem to be the problem or they'd do the same thing on the inside loop. Since things work on the inside loop and not on the outside loop, he needs to look at all the differences, like:
- How much longer is the outside loop?
- Enough to cause a power shortage?
- How is it powered?
- Same amount of power?
- Fixed or variable channel?
- Different TIU channel for each loop?
- How is it wired different?

I am lucky i guess i do not use my remotes to shut down my 15 ps2 ps3 engines...i have one home depot remote that turns on and off my TIU , Z1000 and Z500(powers aux in TIU) all on one power strip. I do use one channel for my 2 rail loop and one channel for my 3 rail loop. New session restart(15 diesels) > the home depot remote on>turn on both DCS remotes(cloned so either one)>eng all>start. Engines remember there settings very reliably. FWIW my track (Atlas) hardly sees any cleaning maintenance... All of this is REV L 4.20