http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tra...billion-project.html
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The Swiss better keep the older line open for a while. Manure happens!
This is very interesting news ...
Original Gotthard Tunnel: opened in 1882, 9.3 miles long, 3800 feet max elevation.
New Gotthard Base Tunnel: opens June 2016, 35.5 miles long, 1801 feet max elevation.
Two single-track tunnels electrified at 15 kV 16.7 Hz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel
... the goal of the Gotthard Base Tunnel ... is to transport trucks, trailers and freight containers between southern Germany and northern Italy by rail to relieve the overused roads (intermodal freight transport and so-called rolling highway where the entire truck is transported) and to meet the political requirement of shifting as much tonnage as possible from truck transport to train transport, as required by the 'Alpine Protection Act' of 1994.
... the deepest railway tunnel in the world, with a maximum depth of approximately 2,300 metres (7,500 ft), comparable to that of the deepest mines on earth.
Attachments
I rode through the tunnel in 2004,hopefully I will get one more ride next year.
Mikey
15Kv, 16.7 hz. 16.7 is odd. Why not 60, like our wall current.
Why couldn't we do this in the US before more rail lines are abandoned and gobbled up?
Dominic Mazoch posted:15Kv, 16.7 hz. 16.7 is odd. Why not 60, like our wall current.
It's not odd for that part of Europe, where railway electrification goes way back. It's too entrenched to be economically converted to the modern European railway electrification standard of 25Kv 50Hz AC anytime soon. Interesting story:
15 kV AC railway electrification
25 kV AC railway electrification
Mains frequency in most other countries is 50 Hz, not USA standard of 60 Hz.
Impressive...I am sure it was built without the billions spent on environmental impact studies as we have to do here in the usa before anything moves forward. Yet never has rr construction in the USA ever negatively impacted any surrounding.
Mike W. posted:Yet never has rr construction in the USA ever negatively impacted any surrounding.
Source? Call me skeptical.
You & WB47 do realize that the freight railroad service here in the U.S. is the envy of the world, right? Europe may have us beat in terms of passenger rail, but the Gotthard Base Tunnel was built as part of the catch-up effort to our freight game.
An interesting read: http://www.economist.com/node/16636101
Yeah I agree...I wasn't commenting on the freight industry. But look how much issues we are having building Hudson River tunnels or new Tunnels under Baltimore...or Virginia Ave Tunnel. CSX even got shot down trying to build a modern efficient intermodal yard in a depressed area of baltimore. They have already spent hundreds of millions if not billions before ground is even moved for these US projects. Back up to 1900 PRR built the tunnels with their own funding..quickly...and at the awe of the american public...not the criticism like we get now days. It seems new RR projects are subject to stricter environmental planning than highways...yet nature thrives right up next to rail right of ways...opposite true for hwys with their surrounding development that often occurs.
Dominic Mazoch posted:15Kv, 16.7 hz. 16.7 is odd. Why not 60, like our wall current.
16 2/3 is one third of 50.
Well, try driving I-80 across Iowa and you will see that we have ceded control to highway trucks. The question is, how to keep it from getting worse.
Mike W. posted:I am sure it was built without the billions spent on environmental impact studies as we have to do here in the usa.......
Wrong.
"The creation of the Gotthard axis will also mark one of Europe's largest environmental protection projects, aimed at preserving the Alpine area. Mitigation was an integral part of the project, minimising the risk of air and noise pollution, as well as the threat of floods and general disruption the line might pose to the surrounding natural habitat."
The Europeans are very sensitive with respect to protecting their environment - in many respects much more than in the U.S., which has certain political opposition that makes it a point to thwart efforts to protect the environment.
Well they did get it built...we are still using 1900 Hudson river tunnels. Of course I realize studies are a part of all projects...but they moved it along in a timely manner. PTC was delayed in the USA due to among other things a Native American Sovereignty and Telecommunications Policy???
Mike W. posted:Well they did get it built...we are still using 1900 Hudson river tunnels. Of course I realize studies are a part of all projects...but they moved it along in a timely manner. PTC was delayed in the USA due to among other things a Native American Sovereignty and Telecommunications Policy???
The 1900 Hudson River Tunnels replacements are stalled because Governor Christie has stopped the building. Nothing to do with environmental anything, just political corruption.
The 1900 Hudson River Tunnels replacements are stalled because Governor Christie has stopped the building. Nothing to do with environmental anything, just political corruption.
Wrong:
the ARC tunnel was stopped because it was a poorly designed project that created no connection with existing trackage. That and the financing arrangement put NJ on the hook for additional billions of cost
the Gateway project that is replacing it is what the ARC tunnel SHOULD have been. if you want to point political fingers, direct them at Sen. Menendez & Lautenberg and former Gov. Corzine for pushing through a stupid plan.
I spent the weekend in a grid locked community. Modern mass transit seems very distant. There has been extensive discussion about additional commuter rail service, Virginia, Maryland and DC, but it seems to be getting no where. You got to admire the initiative here. Land locked, Switzerland could have easily gotten lost in a fast moving world. I hope it works for them.
From Western PA east on the PA turnpike to Breezewood, and then I 70 South to DC. traffic is constant and heavy almost 24 hrs a day. We need to look seriously at transportation in the US, all the concrete ribbons, just doesn't do it. IMO Mike CT
PRR Man posted:The 1900 Hudson River Tunnels replacements are stalled because Governor Christie has stopped the building. Nothing to do with environmental anything, just political corruption.
Wrong:
the ARC tunnel was stopped because it was a poorly designed project that created no connection with existing trackage. That and the financing arrangement put NJ on the hook for additional billions of cost
the Gateway project that is replacing it is what the ARC tunnel SHOULD have been. if you want to point political fingers, direct them at Sen. Menendez & Lautenberg and former Gov. Corzine for pushing through a stupid plan.
Hmmm, as I understand it the Gateway project is still in the thinking about it stage and will cost about 25% more than the ARC project. What a deal. Sounds like the eastern span of the SF bay bridge project here which, thanks to Governor Moonbeam's delays (as the Oakland mayor) mean't the old span spent 1/3 of it's active life in a condemned state after the Loma Prieta earthquake.
If I understood correctly...ARC was a one sided project...taking NJT trains into Manhattan on a dead end...not connected with the rest of the Penn Station network. The final project will be an enhancement of the interconnected system.
NIMBYS are a major impediment to any great project these days. Look at ALL Aboard Florida. I am sure we have all heard the same silly protests about how the trains will plow people down at crossings and block cars for hours. The RR was there first and the RR has a right to pack as much traffic on their capital asset as they think will make a profit. No one has a right to stop that especially considering safety is a priority with rail projects.
Mike, you are correct. The final ARC plan was a stub end station 100' below ground.
to compare, NY Penn tracks are about 30' below ground.
the ARC terminal would have been a risk assessor's nightmare. imagine a fire that far below ground with 1000's of travelers.
Enjoy the opening ceremony. Apparently a portal to an alternate dimension was opened when they were digging this thing out:
apparently! wooo.
Norm Charbonneau posted:Enjoy the opening ceremony. Apparently a portal to an alternate dimension was opened when they were digging this thing out:
Didn't you realize that it is actually access to the dimensional door created by the Large Hadron Collider just down the street.
PRR Man posted:Mike, you are correct. The final ARC plan was a stub end station 100' below ground.
to compare, NY Penn tracks are about 30' below ground.
the ARC terminal would have been a risk assessor's nightmare. imagine a fire that far below ground with 1000's of travelers.
Anything can be improved upon; ad infinitum and will always be imperfect. The thing is to get on with it before there is a failure or other bad stuff happens in the old tunnels. With the replacement SF Bay bridge after sections were completed inspectors went in and found significant things wrong with the construction that cannot be corrected without tearing the bridge down and starting over. Workarounds have been instituted and we will find out how well they work when we have a large earthquake.
With the San Jose BART extension, which is only few blocks from where I live, it was found that construction companies used the wrong materials in the pipes and conduits under the foundation that are not approved for alluvial soil substrate during an earthquake but no, they are not going to tear down the buildings to tear up the foundation to replace the pipes.
Norm Charbonneau posted:Enjoy the opening ceremony. Apparently a portal to an alternate dimension was opened when they were digging this thing out:
After taking a prescribed dose of medical marijuana this is what I see in my train room.
Hey dude...........................far out! I can dig it! cool!
rdunniii posted:PRR Man posted:Mike, you are correct. The final ARC plan was a stub end station 100' below ground.
to compare, NY Penn tracks are about 30' below ground.
the ARC terminal would have been a risk assessor's nightmare. imagine a fire that far below ground with 1000's of travelers.
Anything can be improved upon; ad infinitum and will always be imperfect. The thing is to get on with it before there is a failure or other bad stuff happens in the old tunnels. With the replacement SF Bay bridge after sections were completed inspectors went in and found significant things wrong with the construction that cannot be corrected without tearing the bridge down and starting over. Workarounds have been instituted and we will find out how well they work when we have a large earthquake.
With the San Jose BART extension, which is only few blocks from where I live, it was found that construction companies used the wrong materials in the pipes and conduits under the foundation that are not approved for alluvial soil substrate during an earthquake but no, they are not going to tear down the buildings to tear up the foundation to replace the pipes.
OK, does BART and Cal-DOT have people who overlook the contractors?
So what will become of the old Route?
It is being abandoned.
Mikey
prrhorseshoecurve posted:So what will become of the old Route?
mikey posted:It is being abandoned.
Actually, full service with the new tunnel won't happen until December 2016.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel
... It opened on 1 June 2016 with full service to begin in December 2016.
Europe in general has strong environmental laws, and Switzerland is no exception, even though it doesn't have to follow EU guidelines. I have heard complains about environmental reviews killing projects, but usually that is cover for politicians and others who don't want to spend money on infrastructure (other than roads it seems), so they say "don't blame me, it is the D*** environmentalists".
The ARC tunnel design was a bit ridiculous, it didn't have a tie in to Penn Station (which in of itself has big problems).....but from what I have been led to believe, that could potentially have been fixed since construction was not that far along, they were just starting to work on the NJ side with preliminary work. Likewise, the federal government was willing to negotiate with the cost of potential overruns, but the Christie administration showed little interest in it. It was telling that after cancelling the project he tried to take something like 500 million the federal government had already kicked into the project to do road projects, which also tipped his hand, that he never wanted new tunnels built. Without getting into byzantine politics, Christie like more than a few others in NJ had this concept that if they didn't build the tunnels, businesses would move to NJ from NYC...which is pretty short sighted, for a number of reasons, and also misses out why companies locate in a place like NYC, that is accessible from all over (which NJ is not, travelling in state is pretty much all driving, and the roads have bad traffic on them).
The Gateway is a better concept, but I doubt it will happen, especially these days when nothing seems to be working, despite the fact that the gateway project would likely promote a region wide boom. Even roads and highways are not in great shape, bridges are falling apart, so what chance does a rail project have? The obvious misses a lot of people, that cities with no support for mass transit end up in gridlock nightmare that ends up helping choke growth, pure and simple, and suburbs that attract business soon find that what could be a 20 minute commute turns into an hour or more because of overloaded roads.
Obviously people in Switzerland saw a need and put into place a project to fill it. It is a lot easier to do that in a country like Switzerland, the nature of the country means that it is a lot easier to get consensus and do things and find a middle ground to do it, whereas to be honest these days everything seems more to be like an out of control schoolyard fight in these parts, with the emotional capacity of a typical 6 year old (and I apologize to 6 year olds,they are better behaved than many so called adults).
my understanding is that, after the new tunnel is put into use, the old line will remain and be used by local passenger trains as it serves a number of communities. (bit like the Lotchberg (?) tunnel).
Andrew
