Wye Configuration

Just threw this together quickly in SCARM.

Looks like it might work with some tweaking

031 RH, 036 LH, 072 Y, and assorted curves and straight pieces.

The use of an O-72 would be cool, but an O-36 RH turnout may be able to be used instead of it and save some valuable space.  The track planning gurus on the forum can probably figure this out in short order.  If you can custom cut filler pieces to go between any and/or all three turnouts, so much the better.  The odds of getting something to work are increased tenfold.

Since you didn’t provide any measurements, I put this together and added some to help you see if it will fit.

Mixed Freight posted:

The use of an O-72 would be cool, but an O-36 RH turnout may be able to be used instead of it and save some valuable space.  The track planning gurus on the forum can probably figure this out in short order.  If you can custom cut filler pieces to go between any and/or all three turnouts, so much the better.  The odds of getting something to work are increased tenfold.

Yep- it works

Thanks everyone - I figured the dimensions would be automatically established by the configuration of the Wye, itself, but it looks like there may be more than one solution, so I'll post them tomorrow.

Attached is my feeble attempt at Scarm design.

The dimensions are accurate - the scale is way off.

Looks like I might be an inch or two off from being able to do it ??

EDIT:  BETTER PIC NOW

I think you're out of luck. Here's what I believe are the smallest configurations possible and the one on the left with the Wye switch only works if you cut a 2" piece (red) to fit. Even so, with the left southbound track 1" from the edge, the left O-31 switch extends into the doorway. I didn't know the importance of the 33", so I just made the baseboards 33" wide and extended them down past the tracks. The blue configuration uses an O72 Wye while the gold uses an O36 switch. Both require you to add a corner wedge to your table.

Thanks, Dave - that's what I was afraid of - so I'll have to rethink the project.

The 33" is the fixed distance from the west (left) end of the existing O-36 switch all the way to the edge of the door, where I would need the west (left) end of the new O-31 switch to stop so it doesn't extend into and block the doorway. So it's the maximum width along the wall within which to fit the two new switches and extension pieces while still connecting to a wye (or switch).

Assuming each new switch is 10" long, that would leave 13" of extension pieces to connect the two switches, but then it doesn't look like there's any way to mate the switch curves to the existing straightaway using either a wye or a switch.

Thanks, again.

I made one change in the switch arrangement for you to consider.  I had to cut only one straight (2 3/8") in the right most arrangement.  The space required For the wye is shown on top, and the spacing is between the tracks.

Jan

Jan, I'm sure Richie will correct me if I'm wrong, but here's how I read his comments:

- the green O36 switch has to end 33" from the left edge of the layout
- right now it's an O36 curve down to the purple tracks
- the yellow O31 switch can't extend past the edge of the layout on the left
- the purple tracks are 1" from the edge and can't be moved

If my understanding is correct, I think it can be done, but requires using a Ross O31 Wye switch, 2 FasTrack O31 switches and cutting fitters on an angle, something SCARM doesn't allow. And I'm not sure how to connect the Ross switch to FasTrack.

Fabricated with Gargraves flex track.  O72 or slightly smaller.   The module is 6 ft wide X 5ft to the turntable. 

That's right Dave - the total allowable space across the wall at the top from the end of the existing O-36 switch to the edge of the door cannot exceed 33" or the new west (left) side switch will start to enter the doorway space which I need to avoid.

That is correctly shown by Dave's yellow and green sections.

So, with that as the given, the issue is whether there is then a way to connect the two new switches to the existing southbound track via a wye or different switch. The wye can be moved vertically up or down the existing southbound track a foot or so to accommodate a fit.

FWIW, the centerline of the existing southbound FT track does not equally split the 33" width across the top. The centerline is 15 5/8" from the door edge on the left and 17 3/8" from the end of the existing O-36 switch on the right (totaling 33"); maybe slightly to the right by an inch or so of where it's shown on Dave's plans.

Thanks

Dave,

I interpreted rich's comments to mean that the wye had to fit within the existing space and not to block the doorway.  Also, the impact to the existing layout should be minimized.

I redid my first iterations and managed to reduce the distance a bit further.  At a minimum, all of these attempts give him and others ideas of what can be done.

It would be nice if Lionel made an O36 wye.  I don't relish trying to mate a Ross wye to FasTrack.

Jan

Mike CT posted:

Fabricated with Gargraves flex track.  O72 or slightly smaller.   The module is 6 ft wide X 5ft to the turntable. 

Hi Mike - I've seen those pics a few times before and greatly admire your layout and handiwork. The flex track may be an option, but if I could just convert your wye to FT and shrink it to my dimensions, we'd be all set !

Richie, I'm going to make my pitch one more time. There is no doubt a Wye can be configured to fit the space between the doorway on the left and the existing O36 switch on the right. However, everyone seems to be missing the fact that the existing purple southbound track is fixed at 1" from the left edge of the layout (13.5: from doorway) and I'm not sure how far down you're willing to tear up. Also, the blue O36 switch on the right is fixed at 33" from the doorway and the clear O31 switch on the left is semi-fixed at the doorway. In fact, if there is going to be a lift out/up bridge, I submit that the switch actually needs to be at least an inch in from the doorway, if not more.

Anyway, O31 is the smallest FasTrack switch and O31 is the tightest FasTrack curve. One way I see to get a switch/curve combo to mate with the existing southbound track is by adding 2 short O31s going in opposite directions and I have no idea how many problems that might create. FasTrack doesn't have a flex track, but even if it did, adding one would simply result in a curve tighter than O31 and that would probably create it's own set of problems.

I did like Jan's idea of playing off the existing O36 switch, so I tried several iterations and settled on this one. The cut 30" track is just under 9", so I believe 2 pieces of 4.5" track would fit even though they won't connect in SCARM.

Now, if you're willing and able to tear up more southbound track, here's the way I'd probably do things. It doesn't require any cutting, but does connect further down on the existing southbound track. There is a small "S" curve where the 1 3/8" and 1 3/4" pieces are between the half O36 curves, but this will be a relatively slow speed section, so I don't know how many problems that will create.

I've attached a few photo's so you guys can see the area of the layout that I'm working with. The extension will go across the door and there will be a lift out bridge across the doorway.

These are all interesting designs that I hadn't thought of before - playing off the existing O-36 switch.

I can't move the southbound existing track to the east (right), but I'll see what I can do with each design.

Thanks again guys.

It all comes down to how badly you want the Wye. BTW, how much do you plan to add on the other side of the door?

An interesting fact is that the straight portion of the O31 switch is 11 3/8" while It's just 10" for the O36.

Jan

The other side of the door will be about an 18' straight run through the back of two closets then along my workbench and turning south and then back through an O-48 reversing curve. If I eliminate the O-31 switch and wye and I could just run the train straight through across the door to the west (left), but then on the return trip, the train would be heading against the normal direction of train travel on the layout and I have no way to turn it around anywhere on the layout; that's why I need to be able  to have the train come back and connect with the existing southbound track either with a wye or switch.

It is interesting that the O-36 would be shorter than the O-31.

The sketch of the full extension is at my office - I'll post tomorrow if anyone is interested.

Thanks

Some things to think about. Put your turnout on the movable bridge. Or two tracks on the bridge and a turnout on the far side past the bridge.

gftiv posted:

Some things to think about. Put your turnout on the movable bridge. Or two tracks on the bridge and a turnout on the far side past the bridge.

Richie, this is what that might look like using O36 switches and curves. The green is a 11x30 lift-out and the blue is added bench work. I don't know where the doorway ends or if there is enough wall on the other side of the closets for a 11" wide tunnel, but if there is, this might be the best solution. Note that the track connecting to the existing O36 switch would need some finesse depending on exactly how things line up with the existing southbound track.

Jan posted:

An interesting fact is that the straight portion of the O31 switch is 11 3/8" while It's just 10" for the O36.

Jan

Probably because the O31 switch needs the makeup curve and the extra length on the straight keeps things symmetrical.

That's a really great design, Dave, and I wish I could use it, but I only have a little bit more than the width of the FT (a 1" x 4") to run along the rear of the closets - for two reasons. One, anything wider starts to hit the rear framing members of the closets. I could probably work around that by sistering some framing, but the biggest issue is that the main plumbing stack for the house is in that first closet (fairly close to the door) and I only have about an inch more clearance than the width of the 1 x 4 between the stack and the outside concrete wall. 

I have a 10' length of 1 x 4 oak which I will use to span the two closets and rest on the 5.75" shelf on the west side of the door and the shelf on the other side of the closets where it will come out  in my workbench area. I'll put a few L-brackets or plywood triangles along the span in the closets for additional support.

Thanks

Oh well, I was afraid there were obstacles.

This can still work. GFTIV has a good idea, ans Dave a good implementation.

Place a manual O31 or O36 switch on the lift out bridge.  Because it is a manual switch no wires are required.  A command control switch might work too.

Jan

Good point Jan. Here's what that would look like and should be doable. Even if a remote switch is used, it can be to wired, just need jumper wires with connectors that can be disconnected. I made the green area 30", but after checking the photos, it looks like there's room on the left for it to be extended (red) past the doorway. There the 10" track after the switch could be replaced with two 5" tracks. The dark blue tracks would all be part of the lift-out or lift-up (to the left). As you can see I change the configuration of the lift-out a bit.

I took the tack of minimizing changes to the original layout. 

Jan

Those are both interesting designs and look doable, although that will be one heck of a liftout !

FWIW, attached is the main extension design (the only change being an O-48 reversing curve rather than O-36, to allow a small roundhouse and turntable) and a sketch of the closet areas with the top (#1) sketch as if you were standing in the doorway and looking west through the opening in the closets and "down" the proposed track run and #2 as if you were standing in front of the closet doors looking directly into the closet towards the rear wall.

You guys rock - thanks.

Forgot I had an updated version - attached. It is not to scale.

Here's a mod which simplifies the track plan and reduces the size of the lift up.out.  The green track is all that replaces existing track.  The red corresponds to the lift out.

You can just use a piece of plywood with some form of alignment (pins, notches, etc.) that lays on a ledge on each side of the door,  It is possible to add "hinges" to allow you to swing the lift out up or to the side.  There have been many threads on the subject with some novel solutions.

Jan

That looks great, Jan - thanks.

Looking at the pix above I see the door you want to cross is an exterior door. Is this an active doorway? I'm thinking that family, especially kids & friends tend to forget little details like there is a bridge crossing the doorway & in a rush, swing the door open & come crashing into your bridge.

I like the idea tho of expansion & the ideas presented how to accomplish it.

balidas posted:

Looking at the pix above I see the door you want to cross is an exterior door. Is this an active doorway? I'm thinking that family, especially kids & friends tend to forget little details like there is a bridge crossing the doorway & in a rush, swing the door open & come crashing into your bridge.

I like the idea tho of expansion & the ideas presented how to accomplish it.

Thanks for asking - it is an exterior door leading into a basement playroom and, generally, only gets opened once a year, if that. The only reason it typically gets opened is to bring in or remove large appliances (washer, dryer, water heater, etc.) or furniture.

Since we switched to gas heat about 3 years ago and bought a new washer and dryer last year and gave away all the old furniture about 6 months ago; hopefully, it won't need to be opened for a few years.

That's one of the reasons I'm opting to go with a simple liftout rather than a hinged one or a gate, because it won't need to be lifted out very often.

Jan,

I believe Richie said the southbound tracks are ONLY 1" from the edge, not the 1.5" I see in your file. I believe he also said (photo posted on 1-10-2020) that the existing switch in the upper right was an O36. That's not a big deal, but a 1/2" filler will be needed for the wye to connect to the existing southbound tracks. Now it's possible that the measurements are not quite exact, so a filler might not be needed when built, but I wanted to make Richie aware of the possibility.

I'm also not comfortable with the switch being on the edge of the lift-out, so I hope you don't mind that I played around with moving it in more and came up with this configuration. I also added the reversing loop to show how big it is. The location is not exact because I don't know the measurements of the room on the other side of the door.

The Blue tracks are existing tracks.
The Green tracks are those that need to be changed.
The Red and Gold tracks are all new.
The Red tracks (minus the filler) will be on the lift-out and only 1 small straight overhangs instead of the switch.

Dave - there's a small (1 3/8" ?) section of red track on the divergent part of the switch on the liftout that looks like it would have to be cut at an angle (about 45 degrees) in order for the liftout to separate from the 12.5" wedge.

Am I reading the plan right ?

Thanks

Richie, yes, you’re reading it right, but you don’t really need to cut it if you don’t want to. There’s no reason it can’t just be attached to the lift-out section and not the bench work. You just need to be a little careful when you lift it up. You could add an alignment pin for the overhanging end, but I think the alignment pins you’ll need for the lift-out itself should be enough.

Have you considered expanding into the basement play room? There are many people on the board who can help you punch a hole or two in the wall.

Rich,

There is no need to cut any track.  Your liftout doesn't have to be rectangular nor do you don't have to start your lift out section at the door edge.  As in the image, it starts about 9 inches from the main table.  Its construction would be like your table top is constructed.  Typical might be 1/2" homasote on top of 1/2" plywood and possibly braced underneath..   It would sit on a ledge that will hold it at the same height as the table top and align the tracks.

Jan

gftiv posted:

Have you considered expanding into the basement play room? There are many people on the board who can help you punch a hole or two in the wall.

I'm sure there are  but I need to leave the playroom open for the grandkids to play (otherwise known as a bar and game tables) !