Yellowstone trip help

tripleo posted:

.......and not a single picture of a jackalope....sigh.

keep in mind that in this part of the country you will more than likely encounter a constant wind. Not necessarily strong, but constant, usually only dying back at sundown. That can turn a 65 degree day into something that feels a lot more like 45 or 50. Always keep that jacket handy.

Not to mention,,,,,,be prepared to dress warmly, i.e. layers of clothing. Just because you will be going in June, do NOT assume it will be "warm" in north western Wyoming!

I goofed ..Kalispell has been my base for Glacier, but if you are from Providence, Glacier is a "fur piece" from YNP. I remember Livingston because of the post office, halls full of nothing but P.O. boxes, presumed for ranchers to come get their mail.

If you want to ride a train, the tourist train in the mining town of Virginia City, might be running . This and Alder, with a kind of informal RR museum, are up US 287 NW of YNP.  I think Alder is where the only gold dredge l've ever seen is sitting in a pond.  Two caveats: the NPS has a nasty habit of doing "controlled" burns in YNP. On two separate trips, the fires got away from them and l got run around the barn, all the way out to Cody from the north of the park on the second trip. Then sat at bridge construction for hours into early morning trying to get back into a bed in Jackson.  Second: Grizzlies are big and fast!  Had a good close look from a bus in Alaska. Saw one go right up a cliff a lot faster than l could run on a flat track in my youth . Driving at night, watch for antelope herds racing around . You could spend a couple of weeks there just exploring in your car.

July 2015 Trail maintenance for the US Forestry Service, Bridger Teton Wilderness, Sheffield trail head, just south of Yellowstone along the Snake river.   Hot has it right. We were working at about 8500 ft.  We had frost several morning and I woke to a pretty good snow fall on the Northern Tetons one morning.   Here are some pictures.

Late July snow in the Tetons.

You might want to consider an ice scraper.

Burn area of the 1988 Yellowstone fire. Re-growth after 27 years.

Wyoming, Bridger Teton Wilderness, Snake River.

We are working over 8,500 ft at this location, takes a while, when you're from Pennsylvania.

Heat's in the tools, No power tools are allowed in Wilderness areas.

A few Yellowstone Pictures from this trip.

Enjoy the trip.  One of our national treasures.  Last summer saw record attendance at Yellowstone and several other national parks, plan accordingly.

Those photos of snow bring back some memories.  My first first trip to Yellowstone was in the early 60's,over the 4th of July.  One morning I got out of my tent to find about 6" of snow on the ground.......it was gone by noon.  Subsequent visits  taught me to always take some  warm clothing,including gloves.  You never know about the weather in Yellowstone.

Speaking of bears,they were more prevalent back then,always around the campsites.

Norm

Up into the 1960s, park officials paid little attention to tourists feeding bears.  It was a tradition going back to at least ~1900.  The wealthy Easterners who visited the park then had no experience with bears and saw the ones at the park as cuddly and considered them "domesticated,"  unlike the wild bears outside the park.  Think of Yogi and Boo-Boo bear at Jellystone.  That changed as the bears became more aggressive, began attacking campers in their tents, and ripping off the doors of automobiles.  Today you can be fined big $$ for feeding animals in the parks or not having your food stored in a secure metal locker at the campsites.  This has all paid off with bear attacks now fairly rare.  Below is a photo taken by early park photographer Asahel Curtis, from a set of postcards he made around 1928 and sold by conductors and depots on the Northern Pacific and Oregon Short Line RR.  It shows the casualness of "bear safety" at the time.  I also included a photo of the NP Gardiner MT station, the main way tourists got to the park for many decades.  Everything in that photo is now gone except for the Roosevelt Arch.  Somewhere I also have a c.1895 stereoview of a passenger train with a 4-4-0 pulling up to that station, with tourists unloading baggage.  From the depot visitors would be taken through the Arch by stage coach into the park.  After about 1915 motorcars were used as the roads had become better.  The depot was the first assignment given to the NPRR architect Robert Reamer.  He later designed and built Old Faithful Lodge, one of the most iconic hotels in the world.   YNP was the first national park, and it exists largely because of the efforts of the Northern Pacific Railroad and the photos of F. Jay Haynes.

Kent in SD

Well let's see, I would love to take my Harley, but we are flying.  I may ride there at a later time.  As for bears...ha! We have bull sharks here where I live, a bear wouldn't stand a chance.  Me on the other hand, well I can climb a tree.  I can see it now, the headline on Fox News; Florida teacher eaten by bear.  So exactly what kinds of bears?  Do grizzly bears live there?  You folks are a wealth of information.

Driving through the park, expect "bear jams", of black bears close to the road. All cars stop and watching the people get out of their cars in the close presence of large carnivores becomes the amusement.  There are also buffalo and other jams.

Norm posted:

Those photos of snow bring back some memories.  My first first trip to Yellowstone was in the early 60's,over the 4th of July.  One morning I got out of my tent to find about 6" of snow on the ground.......it was gone by noon.  Subsequent visits  taught me to always take some  warm clothing,including gloves.  You never know about the weather in Yellowstone.

 

Norm

 

 

Ditto ! Happened to us a long while back.

I have seen griz up by mamoth.  Also spotted black bear cubs playing in a tree right by the road  and mama on the road from mamoth to Cooke.  Camped with my folks at fishing bridge in a canvas tent in the 50s.  Several nice sized bears always showed up when we were eating supper at the picnic table.  The raided all park garbage cans and moved on. My dad kept a long handled axe inside the tent just in case. 

Ok, one more bear story.  About 4 years ago my wife and I were staying at a private cabin just up the hill from Cooke.  We decided to walk up to Lulu pass, the road cutting off the main road just a bit from the cabin.  As we walked by a campground a sign said Campground Closed due to bear activity.   We went up and back and my wife then spotted the sign.  A lady told why.  A bear had attacked a tent and nearly tore a man's arm off.  Wife says did you see that sign before.  I say yup.  Why did you not tell me.  Cause you would not have gone then.  These moments are priceless.  Anyway, if you  come in from the east to Cody, go through Shoshoni Wyo., then north to Thermopolis.  You will see the BNSF line through wind river canyon.  Spectacular.  I think Wyhog may have plied this line a time or two. 

We are driving from North Carolina to Glacier NP and Yellowstone NP in July for some tent camping.   Will be on the road for 4 weeks.  I will be returning to these parks for the 1st time in 40 years.   Looking forward to the adventure!

Clint,

Since your trip is in June, most of the roads will be snow free (except for the occasional summer blizzard) but there will be snow on upper elevation trails.  Just got the Jackson Hole news in the mail with an article reporting 150" snow depth at the J.H. ski area, so this winter promises to be well above average in snowfall.  The good news is snow cover will keep some of the wildlife in the valleys close to the roads.  Bad news if you want hike upward into the Tetons as you will post-hole in deep snow in protected/shaded areas. 

Definitely buy bear spray if you intend to hike away from the popular trails.  Watch the videos on how to use it.  I have been too **** close in unexpected encounters with Bear 399's offspring on infrequently used trails and I now hike with the safety lock off.  When the bears are within sight of the highway, there will be bear jams.  The Park Rangers will keep you at a distance (500mm telephoto for the photographers).  The Rangers keep a watch on the bear movements and will sometimes close roads and trails if the bears are agitated or show aggressive behavior.

A good alternative to flying into Jackson Hole is Salt Lake City.  Better flight schedules and prices.  Takes 5 hours to drive from SLC to Jackson and your route can parallel UP tracks for part of the way.  Very scenic drive.

Enjoy your trip to GTNP and YNP!

John

wb47 posted:

 My dad kept a long handled axe inside the tent just in case. 

Talk about bringing a knife to a gunfight. 

There are both black and brown bears in Yellowstone......although they do not like each other very much.  Black bears are very much threatened by male brown bears.  If nothing else, they often compete for the same food and habitat, although both are omnivores and eat a surprisingly large amount of "non-meat".

Also, when spending time at Elevation in the mountains, always bring:

1) sunglasses, 2) a "summertime" hat of your preference, 3) a waterproof outer shell/jacket, 4) a 200 weight fleece jacket....to be worn inside your water proof shell if need be  (if you're a freeze baby, get a 300 weight jacket), 5) an extra pair of wool/warm, waterproof socks, and 6) fleece hat and gloves. This should cover you for most weather scenarios.  If it's going to get really cold, add your favorite base layer - top and bottom.  Dress in layers and add/subtract as the temps change.

Also, if you get a moment, go to YouTube and search on camping or hiking the Tetons.  This will give you some indication of how beautiful the scenery is....and what it's like away from the crowds.

I have to admit this thread has me rethinking my vacation plans this Summer. 

The are precautions about all the critters, Something about these parks and wild critters exposed to a large number of humans that changes the game.  Be careful out there.  A couple critter pictures.

Buffalo are everywhere, Grand Teton picture, maybe the most miserable animal, has no fear of anything.

Moose oxbow bend of the Snake river, Grand Teton National Park.  I was way too close. Safety meeting of the Day.

Elk in our tent site @ Yellowstone

Again way too close.

Grand Teton National Park, A blonde Black bear in my tent site. Note the tracking collar, when I reported the bear sighting, I was told it was a dead bear.

Mike, when were those taken?

When we have kayaks, we paddle around the Oxbows looking for wildlife ... didn't see much until this guy popped up 20 ft. away. 

DoubleDAZ posted:

Mike, when were those taken?

 

Elk, Moose and Buffalo, a late summer 2007 trip with my sweetheart to Yellowstone/Grand Tetons.   Bear was an overnight stay at Jenny Lake/Grand Tetons, 2008  You see things that let you know the critters are there.   These paw prints let you know just how large some of these animals are.

Note in this picture near the flower the claw marks.  Straight long claws, Grizzly, Black bear, short curved claws.

Mr Union Pacific posted:

 Me on the other hand, well I can climb a tree.  So exactly what kinds of bears?  Do grizzly bears live there?  You folks are a wealth of information.

There are both black bears and grizzly bears.  The grizzly are larger and have a "hump" behind their shoulder.  The grizzly are a bit more dangerous but both types will attack if provoked, especially a mother with cubs.  And, both climb trees superbly well.  The bears are not the most dangerous animal though.  That's the buffalo--they will kill you if you get too close.  I always stay at least 30 yards away from the solitary bulls, more if they are looking at me and shaking their head.  (I am careful to never be the closest person to a solitary bull buffalo, LOL.)   People not used to them seem to think they are just like dairy cows back home.  The reality is they are constantly attacked by wolves and bears, and their aggression is on a hair trigger.  A large bull buffalo can kill a grizzly bear.  Don't fool around with them.  You will see Chinese tourists getting stupid close to them in places, but don't you do the same.  Just being close or in their path is enough to make these critters explode.   And, they can outrun a horse.

Kent in SD

On an extended stay, to any of the parks, Back Country excursions/over nights, require Back Country permits, you will probably camp in designated camping sites.   There are rules, in many cases a video with instruction, bear/critter  training, has to be viewed/and signed off, before you get the issued permit.  With the US Forestry Service there was a question/answer card, we had to complete and sign.  No weapons are allowed in any of the parks or wilderness areas.  We were required to carry bear mace/spray and were instructed as to how to use it.  Large groups the biggest safety factor.  Proper food storage and tenting practices the second major concern.  If confronted by a critter, you can not out run them. Back away slowly if possible, making yourself appear as big as possible. If the confrontation continues, crouch down, with your bear mace, and spray at the animals face.  Pretty good chance that the mace will also effect you if the wind is a factor.   Eventually, Down on the ground, and cover head and neck, as a last resort. 

Mike CT posted:

  No weapons are allowed in any of the parks or wilderness areas.  

That used to be the case but is no more.  There was a recent court ruling (2/2010) which allows people with a CCW that is recognized by the state the park is in to carry a weapon.  Utah, Wyoming and Montana have reciprocity with virtually every other state, including Florida.  I know WY & MT are open carry states (UT might be,) so looking at the national park websites it appears that you could openly carry a gun around if you wanted to.  Personally, I opt not to because (1) I don't think things are that dangerous  (2) would attract a lot of negative attention.  I might consider carrying a small concealed pistol, but the only ones I have are a .380 and a .22--neither are reliable bear stoppers.  Bear spray works better, but I only carry it when going into the deeper wilderness where there are few people.   As for other weapons, I routinely carried a large sheath knife in YNP and Glacier NP and nobody said anything about it.  Unless you plan on hiking deeply into the forest, in the more isolated spots, I don't believe you need to buy bear spray.  All of the popular spots will be so jammed with Chinese tourists there will be no space for bears.

Kent in SD

Kent:  I find that another alarming issue.  There was recent press, about someone at one of the camp sites/Glacier National Park, got into a domestic (fight) and discharged a gun through a tent. Park Service spent considerable time defusing the situation. IMO, Not something you would expect at a National Park, IMO.   Last year saw a lot more people to all the parks, which is also a big concern.   Bear Mace is accessible, (most of the park stores), maybe as much as $50 per container, surprisingly it's tough to find here in Pennsylvania.

Note the Bear Mace canister to the right/red shirt.  Everyone on the trail maintenance team was required to have bear Mace and know how to use it.

One of the issues with Mace is travel/air flight.  It's not permitted either in carry-on or stowed luggage/a pressurized container.  If you buy Bear Spray at any of the National Parks, you may have to leave it, before you board that airplane home.  I lost a Camp Stove,  Missoula, MT that was not permitted on the plane even though I had removed the pressure cap and all the fuel. First question when TSA saw the camping gear, was, "Where is the stove??"  Missoula, MT  is a small (4) gate airport.  I had flown with the same stove, twice, to Las Vegas and back with no problems.   Again part of the world today.  IMO,    Mike CT.

Mike CT posted:

Kent:  I find that another alarming issue.  There was recent press, about someone at one of the camp sites/Glacier National Park, got into a domestic (fight) and discharged a gun through a tent. Park Service spent considerable time defusing the situation. IMO, Not something you would expect at a National Park, IMO.  

 

One incident out of millions of visitors doesn't alarm me, and we don't know if this one person even possessed the gun legally.  I've also heard stories of misbehaving park guests chasing people around with an ax.  Most Western states have pretty lenient gun laws, but OTOH if you violate them you won't get off easy as they are enforced.  Merely pointing a gun at a spouse will get you three years in jail in my state, even for first offense.

Kent in SD

Mike,

Your second photograph, isn't that a moose?

Yes, I am a CCW holder and carry all of the time, but since we are flying I guess I won't even have a knife.  I'll have my wife there to protect me...lol!

About buffalo:  l used to pet the cows in a dairy barn as a kid, but keep in mind that buffalo were pursued for tens of thousands of years by humans on the ground with spears and arrows.  That is probably in their DNA.  They may not eat meat like the bears and wolves, but they and the elk can stomp it into the ground.  Healthy respect is all you need.  Years ago elk walked through my Tetons campground, and bears through a Smokies one.

There is a shelf life to this stuff.  Relatively large container, It may cost you a few bucks more for the belt loop holster. I have a story about a guy/me who carried the stuff in his back pack still in the sealed plastic sell package.  It did take considerable effort/time,  with a utility knife, to remove it from the package.   A camp joke, for two or three evenings, when we did experience a bear on trail maintenance.   Also you need to read the instructions.    

Mr Union Pacific posted:

Mike,

Your second photograph, isn't that a moose?

Yes, Note that the Antlers are loosing there velvet/skin.  He was just chomping on the willows, again I was way too close.

Moose are pretty common in the Grand Tetons, a solitary animal, they would tend not to do well in Yellowstone since the mid-1990 re-introduction of the wolf.  They hang around water, even forage bottom plants, apparently the water is a safety factor.  I have seen them bed-ed down near buildings, north Teton National Park, apparently they have found some security, from the wolves, in the human communities.

Another Grand Teton moose.  This was a day hike, Cascade Canyon, a central part of the park, after the boat ride across Jenny Lake.

And another with calf along the Snake River, near the village of Moose, WY.  Image that.

On track, over Teton Pass from Jackson Hole to Victor Idaho, there is a railroad Station, as close as the railroads came to Jackson, WY.  Existing railroad is long gone now a Rail trail.   Had to be a lot of stuff hauled over Teton Pass  in wagons and eventually trucks.

Station is still there. 

Enjoy your trip to one of the Great American experiences.  And thanks to the moderates for allowing this thread.  Best wishes all, get out there, it's beautiful.

Mike CT.

There are reports of declining moose population in Jackson Hole due to predators, but a side effect is the moose come down into residential neighborhoods in the fall for food and safety from predators.  Many times I have driven through the park without any moose sightings only to find them among the condos and on my steps.  The bears have shown up too.  The bear in my photo (or its brother) eventually made its way into the neighborhood, was trapped and removed, and eventually destroyed when it returned to mix with humans a second time.  We carry bear spray when stepping out outside of daylight hours when bear are reported outside of the Park.  When hiking in the park, the popular trails with a lot of traffic should be bear free but we saw a adolescent bear dash across the String Lake trail at the canoe portage just after a group of scouts departed. 

What part of June are you going? Late  June should be no problem, although some high passes on back roads may still be blocked with snow. (We usually cannot get over Sawmill Divide in the Bighorn Mountains (100 miles east of Yellowstone) until around the 1st of July. That is on a main Forest Service gravel road. It all depends upon the year, and this year in the Bighorns at least is a doozy for snow pack.
By Memorial Day in late May, secondary highways and most roads will be open. You will be able to get to and around the in the parks OK.
In June, night time temperatures in the park (and the town of West Yellowstone) will drop to freezing or below (you are at 8,000 ft after all), but it warms quickly after sun-up.

I live just 2.5 hours from Yellowstone Park and go there quite frequently.
My favorite entry to Yellowstone is the North East entrance via Dead Indian Hill(pass north of Cody) , through Sunlight Basin, through Cooke City.
My second choice is through Red Lodge then up over Bear Tooth Pass(11,000 ft) to Cooke City and the NE entrance.
You could fly into Billings, MT and take either of those routes. You'll pass by the BNSF/MRL Laurel Yard 15 miles west of Billings.
In my humble opinion the above 2 routes have the best scenery _getting_ to Yellowstone park. But to just see the parks (Yellowstone Park, Rockafeller Parkway, and Grand Teton Park)  your Jackson airport route is probably the fastest and best.

Mr Union Pacific posted:

 I'll have my wife there to protect me...lol!

I always tell my wife how great she looks in high heels when we're out hiking.  I figure if she's wearing those and a bear appears, I can easily outrun her.

Kent in SD

wyhog, best answer yet.

I had an uncle, long deceased, that once ranched in Jackson Hole.   Needless to say, that was before it was "discovered" by those developers that have benefited from it's wonderful location. He traded it for a small ranch north of Crook, Colorado. While there, he was one of the first in the US to start raising bison as a commercial meat crop. I have fond memories as a youngster (10 to 15 years old) walking down the 1/2 mile drive to his house and petting the buffalo on the nose through his four rail wooden fence. To this day, I am awed by the potential power housed in those magnificent animals.                                                                                                    

The solitary bull buffalo are the most dangerous, but they often (not always) give some warning.  If they start pawing the ground or shaking their head, you need to immediately begin backing away.   Unlike bears which will attack unprovoked if hungry, buffalo will only attack if you're being stupid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNvTHOrTf_Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXZUTSRZdwU

They are cool to watch, and a great place to watch them in a natural setting is Hayden Valley, a large lush meadow.  In that wilder area, I would not get much closer than 100 yards.  You never know for sure that you're not walking between a herd bull and his cows.  They are easy to spot out in the open and you can get some nice photos.

Kent in SD

Just a farmer observation here but animals are for some reason afraid of a long stick in your hands and will treat you accordingly, while a man with bare hands gets no respect.   A simple walking stick of some size is better than nothing. 

First experience as I drove through Hayden Valley, with the Buffalo, they were on a bluff moving down, toward the river, right side of the road, in the picture.  I pulled off and parked between two cars.  Thinking I was safe, between the cars. I was out of the car and took a few pictures,  Wrong.  Quick pics and I was back in the car.  Called "Buffalo back-up", sometimes the traffic would back for miles as the Buffalo did pretty much what ever they wanted. 

Car door shut, they moved between my car and the next car where I was standing. 

2015 trip to the great Northwest/Yellowstone I did not see as many Buffalo.  The wolf has been there since I believe 1993, Primary purpose was to reduce the size of the Buffalo herd.  You can get pictures of the wolves, again safety meeting of the day, be careful out there.

Back to more fun pictures.

A store clerk told us about the time that she went outside in her back yard and got beat up by a cow moose:broken ribs and arm.  Whoa.

One time I was fishing the Firehole River,up to my armpits,minding my own business.  Out of the thicket sauntered an old bull buffalo and  he gave me the eye from about 20 yards.  After a few minutes he just laid down in the grass watching me.  After some time I exited the stream very slowly from the opposite direction and moved out of the area.  I always take a whistle and bells with me.  You never know.

Then there was my run in with that cow moose and her calf......

I can't wait to get back out there to be "Romin in Wyomin"

Norm

I would vote for the Hayden Valley as one of my favorite parts of the park.  It lacks the fancy attractions like geysers or big waterfalls, but I think it's beautiful.  Especially early or late in the day with the low raking light.

Really, you can't go wrong anywhere in the park.  There is just so much amazing stuff.  What's funny is that I went there several times as a kid, and we mostly hit the highlights.  It was to be expected with my folks managing five kids.  I never understood how much more there was to offer until I went as an adult and we took time to see things away from the beaten paths.

You might consider getting, or borrowing from your library, a copy of the Rough Guide to Yellowstone.  I'm sure there are plenty of guides to choose from.  We used this particular one for both of our recent trips.  It does a nice job of describing things, and also to an extent identify the value of choosing particular activities over others.  A neat suggestion was visiting the Dornan's area in Tetons for a pizza and a drink on the deck as you watch the sun set over the Tetons to the west.  Of course this would depend on your schedule, but it made for a nice relaxing interlude.

Jim

Plan accordingly, A quick Google search indicates, over 4 million visitors last year, 2016, a record.   Yellowstone is a remote section of Wyoming/Montana, with some pretty good accommodations.  IMO  4 million visitors would tend to push the limits of the Park Services' abilities, IMO.    Be careful out there.    There has been recent discussion about limiting the number of visitors.  

Note:  Northeast in the park is Lamar Valley, much like Hayden Valley, with a lot of animals.  

Note: The geography of this area is most interesting   A very large lake, Yellowstone Lake, with the Yellowstone River flowing, north, eventually to the Missouri River, Mississippi, Gulf of Mexico.  Those entering the park from the South would experience Lewis Lake, and the Snake River, flowing south to Jackson WY, eventually to the Columbia River and the Pacific Ocean. There is a continental divide between Lewis Lake and Yellowstone Lake.  Weather is always changing, it can be very wet/cold and then dry/hot.   Have fun  

Note: The park  is an active volcanic area, you will experience the multiple caldera's of at least three volcanos, that existed here.  One of the eruptions/explosions, in this area, distributed ash over the entire United States.   There has been discussion about recent increased volcanic activity.     

Best wishes on your vacation trip

Mike CT.