York Interviews for Lionel and MTH About S Gauge products

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Rusty, my contact at Lionel is watching this conversation. I am not going to either.

Writing here is the current solution. Many people follow topics here but don't write. Please people give us your thoughts.

As I mentioned earlier, I have no problem with plastic steam.  It's a heck of a lot easier to modify a plastic locomotive than die-cast, if so desired.  I'm just unsure about the rest of the market.

I wonder how many folks looking at the Flyer display at York had the idea of plastic steam floated by them?   If the subject wasn't brought up, then it was a missed opportunity.

The problem with doing market research here on the S Forum is it's such a narrow view of the total S market.  There may be enough for valuable marketing information for O on the 3-rail side, but for S, the handful that posts here probably represent 1% or less of the total amount of people in S.  This is why Lionel needs to get out and walk among us where we congregate.

Rusty

I've gone over to O gauge, for reasons that I won't explain here, but If S gauge went back to plastic steam engines, I would never return to S. My childhood was AF with a die-cast Pacific and later I had a plastic steam locomotive. I never liked it. I'm sure there are many that share my sentiment. BTW, I have a small collection of S Helper including the 2-8-0. I am current with S gauge, not just an old nostalgia guy, although I am nostalgic.

I am torn on the Plastic Steam engine.  It would have to be something I could not resist like an Southern Pacific GS4 Daylight engine in Legacy with great applied detail.  Once I had one and liked it, I would then be open to a second or third.  If the first one offered was some bland engine without Legacy, it would be a pass for me.

So the bottom line for me is that it depends.  Give me a great must have engine and you will open the door for me trying more plastic shell steam engines.

--Rocco--

Scale steam engines in plastic are fine with me.  Especially if it means more steam engines of similar quality as the Challengers and Y3s.

Steve Wolcott

I am a Married 35 year old male. I have absolutely no problem with plastic.  I hope they do it!  the detailing on the legacy steamers is so intense I am all-ready afraid to handle them.  so with plastic you get better molded in detail this is a no brainier in my book. 

Have they made any plastic steam in O?

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Oh, he said the engine can be weighed. Remember all the modern diesels work fine.

One thing to remember is that on a modern model diesel (at least 99% of them, assuming both trucks are powered) is that all wheels are driven wheels. 

A steam locomotive model only has the drivers, be they 4, 6 or 8 in most cases, (and blind drivers offer little to no traction on curves) while the pilot, trailing and tender wheels are only along for the ride or carrying dead weight.

Rusty

One thing to remember is that on a modern model diesel (at least 99% of them, assuming both trucks are powered) is that all wheels are driven wheels. 

A steam locomotive model only has the drivers, be they 4, 6 or 8 in most cases, (and blind drivers offer little to no traction on curves) while the pilot, trailing and tender wheels are only along for the ride or carrying dead weight.

Rusty

My first Flyer train was a 282 Pacific with the plastic tender and this set came with the four red passenger cars. I know that engine did not have pullmor wheels and we could get it to spin the wheels, the next generation was the 283 which had the pullmor and I have a few of those. Both are plastic shells and the 283 has good traction even with the lighter weight. If the detail is good on the plastic I would be in the market for those, but I don't know if there is room in these engines for Legacy. The Legacy engines I now own are pretty well jam packed with the electronics. I would not mind even a conventional plastic steamer, I would be willing to install ERRs Cruise Lite to run with my Legacy. I would also like to see MTH offer the F-Units in conventional if they are ever made to do the same. A question I do have, the Baldwins that are being made by Lionel for S are they all wheel drive?

Ray

Rayin"S" posted:

 

If the detail is good on the plastic I would be in the market for those, but I don't know if there is room in these engines for Legacy. The Legacy engines I now own are pretty well jam packed with the electronics. I would not mind even a conventional plastic steamer, I would be willing to install ERRs Cruise Lite to run with my Legacy. I would also like to see MTH offer the F-Units in conventional if they are ever made to do the same.

Ray

It always comes down to these proprietary systems and the amount of space they require.  Someday I will be converting to DCC, but in the meantime I will rely on DC.  I do not like having to pay big bucks for something I am only going to rip out.  I cannot understand why if AM Models and the former SHS could offer engines without proprietary systems why Lionel and MTH can’t.   For plastic engines, again I would say follow Am Models and the former SHS lead.  Plastic can be done right… the Berks weren’t.  My guess is Lionel is looking at cutting cost and maximizing bonuses hence we are probably looking at Am Flyer style plastic engines, similar to the Berk and crammed to the hilt with proprietary electronics.

Sadly,

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

I fairly certain that modern plastic stream will be highly detailed compared to old Gilbert plastic. 

Also I'm not concerned about weight and traction. They did say they can be weighted down. 

Greekchief I too am concerned about weight and traction.

Perhaps they could incorporate Magne-Traction into these units?

Just a suggestion to the Lionel engineers.

Thanks, Phil 

Greekchief posted:

Also I'm not concerned about weight and traction. They did say they can be weighted down. 

I liberated this image of the straight from the box FlyerCheif Berk from Carl Tuveson's site as an example:

Unless Lionel's got a new shrinky-dink machine to make the electronics and smoke unit smaller, except for a small area above the gearbox, sacrificing the open cab area and a teeny space in the cylinder saddle, I don't see a whole lot of room to add extra weight.

Now, I'm not one of these guys that think things should be weighted down to where it bends the rails, but weight and distribution are a factor.  My AM Northern slips a little hauling 7 AM Budd cars, where as my smaller AM pacific doesn't (Scale wheels, no "Gription" Traction.).  And this is on reasonably level track.  Go figure.  Add a grade and all bets are off.

BTW, when I was running tests, there was no slipping problem hauling the seven AM Budds with a single Lionel/Flyer U28C or SD70 either, also no traction tires.

Ultimately, the fate of a new plastic Flyer steamer lineup will have to be decided in the market.  If it looks good, runs and pulls well: GREAT. If not, well...

Rusty

PHILA posted:

Greekchief I too am concerned about weight and traction.

Perhaps they could incorporate Magne-Traction into these units?

Just a suggestion to the Lionel engineers.

Thanks, Phil 

Gotta have steel track for that, and it works best if there's no insulator on one rail, which is kinda hard to do with traditional Flyer track.  Even with Gar Graves O Gauge steel track, Magne-Tration is marginally effective because the magnetic "loop" for the flux lines is not complete.

For guys using AM track, Lionel FasTrack or SHS/MTH S-Trax, Magne-Traction is useless.

Rusty

Thanks for what all you guys have written here.  I am going to start a new thread on plastic engines.

Rusty Traque posted:

Greekchief posted:

Also I'm not concerned about weight and traction. They did say they can be weighted down. 

I liberated this image of the straight from the box FlyerCheif Berk from Carl Tuveson's site as an example:

Unless Lionel's got a new shrinky-dink machine to make the electronics and smoke unit smaller, except for a small area above the gearbox, sacrificing the open cab area and a teeny space in the cylinder saddle, I don't see a whole lot of room to add extra weight.

Now, I'm not one of these guys that think things should be weighted down to where it bends the rails, but weight and distribution are a factor.  My AM Northern slips a little hauling 7 AM Budd cars, where as my smaller AM pacific doesn't (Scale wheels, no "Gription" Traction.).  And this is on reasonably level track.  Go figure.  Add a grade and all bets are off.

BTW, when I was running tests, there was no slipping problem hauling the seven AM Budds with a single Lionel/Flyer U28C or SD70 either, also no traction tires.

Ultimately, the fate of a new plastic Flyer steamer lineup will have to be decided in the market.  If it looks good, runs and pulls well: GREAT. If not, well...

Rusty

There is a ton of space in the tender in flyerchief. Why not move the electronics to the tender. 

Greekchief posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

Greekchief posted:

Also I'm not concerned about weight and traction. They did say they can be weighted down. 

I liberated this image of the straight from the box FlyerCheif Berk from Carl Tuveson's site as an example:

Unless Lionel's got a new shrinky-dink machine to make the electronics and smoke unit smaller, except for a small area above the gearbox, sacrificing the open cab area and a teeny space in the cylinder saddle, I don't see a whole lot of room to add extra weight.

Now, I'm not one of these guys that think things should be weighted down to where it bends the rails, but weight and distribution are a factor.  My AM Northern slips a little hauling 7 AM Budd cars, where as my smaller AM pacific doesn't (Scale wheels, no "Gription" Traction.).  And this is on reasonably level track.  Go figure.  Add a grade and all bets are off.

BTW, when I was running tests, there was no slipping problem hauling the seven AM Budds with a single Lionel/Flyer U28C or SD70 either, also no traction tires.

Ultimately, the fate of a new plastic Flyer steamer lineup will have to be decided in the market.  If it looks good, runs and pulls well: GREAT. If not, well...

Rusty

There is a ton of space in the tender in flyerchief. Why not move the electronics to the tender. 

One word: Tether. 

Some swear by it, others swear at it.  Gotta get power, control to the motor, headlight and smoke unit. 

Plus, assuming we'd be talking Legacy, motor control is in the locomotive, sound in the tender.

Rusty

I turned in the interview today, but there is a few things that are not in the article I can release as we ran out of space.

I did ask about a Daylight steam engine.  I was told that the cost of tooling for that engine is very high. Lionel is not likely to ever do one in S.  My guess is that is true of lots of specialty engines like a cab forward.

Also, Gilbert tooling cannot be used in today's production processes even if they have it.  I was told that the Gilbert tooling was not really saved by Lionel years ago because it was already in bad shape.

These two bits along with the TMCC Pacific/Mikado tooling being lost should be helpfull to those who have been clamoring for these products.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

 

These two bits along with the TMCC Pacific/Mikado tooling being lost should be helpfull to those who have been clamoring for these products.

   

 

Lost? Seriously? 

So Lionel won't likely be doing any detailed scale steam except possibly a BERK then huh? That backs up what I was told 2 years ago. Shame.

Jonathan:  That isn't at all what that means.  It just means that they will consider what they build very carefully in terms of tooling cost and perceived demand.  They know from the FlyerChief Berk that the market for that engine is there.  

There is supposed to be others in the works but I was not told what they were.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

  They know from the FlyerChief Berk that the market for that engine is there.  

There is supposed to be others in the works but I was not told what they were.

Oh great! More mediocre releases.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Tom. do you really think a scale detailed Berksire with Legacy is mediocre?

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Tom. do you really think a scale detailed Berksire with Legacy is mediocre?

Bill,

Do you really think the Berk they released isn't?  As for Legacy, it is only something to be ripped out.

Tom, A new Legacy scale detailed Berk is what I am talking about not the one released recently.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Tom, A new Legacy scale detailed Berk is what I am talking about not the one released recently.

Gees Bill,

I can only repeat myself:  As for Legacy, it is only something to be ripped out.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

 

I did ask about a Daylight steam engine.  I was told that the cost of tooling for that engine is very high. Lionel is not likely to ever do one in S.

   

 

It stands to reason then that any comparable large steam locomotive (Santa Fe 3751 Class, UP FEF-3, N&W J, Reading T1, Milwaukee Road S2, NYC Niagara, C&O Greenbriar...All 4-8-4's)  would also have equally high or higher tooling costs, depending on the level of detail.

Not to mention articulated locomotives.

Rusty

Well, away from the "Tru-Scale" people, I think the MAJORITY of potential customers will be very happy with the level of detail from the PE loco molds. I don't think this engine is "mediocre" at all--It will crawl so slowly, it's like watching grass grow. It seems to negotiate tinplate track very well, it's very responsive. All this and the complete set for ~$300. That to me seems like a great value and a good way to get new folks into S, especially young people and young couples with small children. Now, I will admit that the individual locos at ~$325 doesn't make sense to me--I would think they would be about 1/2 the price of the set--but what do I know?? (I also think the add-on cars are a bit pricey compared to the set price)

I do find it interesting that plastic bodies are considered just fine for diesels, so why not for steamers? This is given that the same level of detail can be met.  Is this just an "old school" perception that has carried over?

Any new road names or color schemes for the SD70ACe or ES44AC?

EMD "Cat" Demo yellow and black color scheme or the GE ES44AC Demo or CitiRail ES44AC 

Regards,

Swafford

I would love to have scale detailed Legacy Berkshires in several road names. Sign me up!

Swafford, on that you will have to read the magazine.

Tooling costs for the Daylight are too high?? With all that streamlining and shrouding of details?? Slab-sided tender and no coal pile?? sounds like an excuse to me--the Y-3 was a LOT more complex!

But I suppose that tooling is "lost" too. . . . .

PS; it seems to me that this "one-time" use of tooling is a very poor use of resources. ACG made certain they amortized their tooling over a loooong period!

Are you two experts at making tooling and manufacturing electric trains?  

I get amazed when people here make statements about an industry and its production methods and costs where they are just a consumer. 

I only wish the people at MTH and Lionel were allowed to participate here and clarify what really happens in building products for our hoppy.

Bill,

  Of course not--but I have been around manufacturing of other items and know a bit more than the average guy on production and packaging costs. When they say the costs to produce the GS-4 are too high, I question that, as the costs to create the Y-3 had to have been as much, or more. Perhaps they think there is a smaller market for the GS-4 than the Y-3. (I think they're wrong, if that's their assumption--but that's just a gut feeling). And yes, I do wish they'd climb down from their ivory tower and tell us "low-life's" some of what's involved. However, that would be akin to telling the competition what they're thinking about, and that has to be kept secret so they can "one-up" each other.  Hmm, with the current long period between announcement and delivery, there's few surprises out there!

And I do want to thank you for setting up and doing the interviews--I for one, will be eagerly awaiting the magazine article.

BTW, the Daylight might be a good test market for the plastic body production, the streamline styling lends itself to that kind of production better than a traditional steamer.  But, what do I know??

First I want to thank Bill for his time speaking with Lionel and MTH.  I subscribed to the S Gaugian last year because of his article and look forward to reading his new one. 

Next I want to say I agree with David about the GS4.  If one was to look at sales across all gauges, the GS4 is a much better seller than the Y3.  The cost should be about the same and as I said previously this would be a great way to test the sale of a legacy Plastic shell Steam engine.  It could turn out to be one of their best sellers in S gauge of all time.

I do hope Lionel is reading these messages.  I have this feeling at times they believe that they know what we want but refuse to listen to what we want.  I keep reading about a GS 4 steam engine, more modern rolling stock and the Fastrack RR crossing and all I hear from Lionel is no, no, no.  I would at least like to hear a maybe, or we will consider building what you want. 

Frankly I would even throw out a suggestion that could help clarify what their S gauge customers want.  I would suggest making a "build to order" SD40.  I would offer it in two flavors. 1) Legacy 2) Lionel Chief.  See which one gets more orders (Of course the Legacy would cost more).  I also would not release it with more than 4 road names at first so you don't kill your own future sales.

Then again what do I know.  I only buy this stuff.

 --Rocco--

Bill,

I think you talked me into your magazine.  The hobby shop I used to work in carried it, but I don't see it around much anymore.  Guess I'll have to get a subscription card from a friend.

Rocco and David,  Thanks for your comments on the interviews.  Unlike "Classic Toy Trains" the writers for the S Gaugian do not get paid for writing columns or articles.  All of us write to help the hobby.

Next, nobody would like a GS4 Daylight locomotive more than me.  I have 2 sets of the 1981 Daylights and a steam locomotive to put in front of the cars would be great. Ryan didn't explain to me why the tooling costs would be higher than the Y3 or other past scale engines.  

I do think that making it a plastic shelled engine is a great suggestion.  It would let Lionel make the engine people crave for and also test plastic in the market.

The resistance to plastic doesn't surprise me, but their logic not to try it escapes me.  There has never been a diecast diesel and never will be.  People never objected to plastic diesels for the reasons they list against plastic steam engines.  Lionel and Gilbert made plastic steam engines in the post war period for their less expensive sets and I have over 20 of the Gilbert engines.  They were a good product and I run them often.

If a highly detailed both cast in and added on plastic Daylight were made I would order two.

By the way, "Build To Order" is the pattern of all high priced locomotives now and most other products by Lionel.  Their time period for ordering is 6 to 8 weeks after a product has been cataloged or announced.  They may produce an additional amount of an item over what was ordered, but not a lot.  That is why the Birks are gone.  

After talking to Lionel at York my impression is the rationale is that any engine considered for production must have the capability to be produced in a multiple of roadnames or color schemes. The larger O gauge market can support an engine produced as a stand alone example but it seems the S market is suspect. Some of the more popular 4-8-4 requests can be explored:

Alco Hudson J type : NYC, NYC W/centipede tender, B&A, Clevelend Cinn. Chicago & StL, Michigan Central. = 5 variations.

GS type: SP, SP stealth (black), American Freedom, SP black/grey, WP. =5 variations

N&W 611:  N&W =1 variation

Niagra: NYC =1 variation

These examples seem to me to be among the most popular in the hobby world for 4-8-4's. Any other road names or variations would be considered not "prototype" or "fantasy" and probably  shunned by many.  Unfortunately, the case for the 611 and Niagra seems bleak. The GS and Hudson seem stronger but is only 5 variations enough? In the past as in the Y-3 and Challenger it may have been but conditions are changing for Lionel S. It would seem that the case to produce a specialty or obscure engine in a limited roadname is slim.  It all comes down to the chances of a product meeting the minimum order quantity.

Rich

Roundhouse Bill posted:

 

There has never been a diecast diesel and never will be.  

Maybe qualify that with an "in S." 

But then again, there were the old cast brass Dayton F units...(but then agian, I think they may have been sand casting.)

In days of old, Varney did F3's and SW7's in die cast metal. 

More recently, Lionel did the O scale GEVO Hybrid diesel and a Genset diesel in die cast metal.  A good quantity of the O gauge crowd proclaimed them both to be of "higher quality" than their plastic counterparts.

Rusty

Francine, call them at 708 366 1973 and they can set you up with a subscription via credit card.  It will save you time and get you a magazine quicker.

Thanks

Rusty Traque posted:

Roundhouse Bill posted:

 

There has never been a diecast diesel and never will be.  

 

<snip>

More recently, Lionel did the O scale GEVO Hybrid diesel and a Genset diesel in die cast metal.  A good quantity of the O gauge crowd proclaimed them both to be of "higher quality" than their plastic counterparts.

Rusty

I own one of the Vision Line UP Gensets. Its quality considerably exceeds any plastic diesel I know of. A truly substantial piece.

Bob