You know that sick feeling you get when the postman arrives with a loud thud!

My rule is that whenever I sell/ship something, I pack it the way I would want something I received to be packed. I do NOT cut corners with the time, effort, or materials I use to ship items, and generally ed up losing money be doing so (I always charge actual shipping via UPS or USPS (only), and that does not come close to covering the cost of packaging materials. Just my way of doing things.

Same here Allen.

I go overboard with bubble wrap, paper, double box or extra cardboard etc.  It's good business, and a way to retain or get additional sales by word of mouth or good reviews. The way I see it. I don't want the hassle of having someone wanting their money back because of my poor packing.

In this case it's my first dealing with this person, and I don't know if I should politely tell them they need to pack better to avoid issues, or just not say anything.  I was very lucky not to have any damage, but I'm sure not everyone is going to make out that lucky with things he ships.

Never ship a locomotive with the post office. The post office is great with lightweight items, but not so much with heavy ones.

Years ago, I bought the Lionel Milwaukee road 4-8-4. The best price was from the friends of 261. But... they shipped via the post office to save a few bucks. The box looked like it had been tumbled in a drier at a laundromat. The loco was OK, but the Styrofoam insert sacrificed its life during the journey. I can never ship the loco in that Styrofoam insert again.

Ship heavy stuff UPS. It costs a little more, but they are more geared to heavy packages.

I got a 2623 Pullman sent to me once in a very scary box. I was expecting bakelite shards but it some how survived. The scary part was the guy bought and sold trains for a living. I could forgive it more if it was someone selling one off but not this was a usual train seller.

Fun thread....I’ll play...MTH Hudson that was shipped to me....no wrapping whatsoever...just tossed in the box....at least the PO tried to cover up the deed...😳

Pat

Ouch!    That's painful to look at!😖

USPS has helped me too.  All Nation pacific drop kicked from CO to NC.  Luckily being sheet brass I was able to straighten and fix.  USPS is still helping me, package with three custom painted locos MIA and a week overdue with no tracking info.  I'm shipping UPS or FEDEX  for the foreseeable future.

@NHVRYGray posted:

USPS has helped me too.  All Nation pacific drop kicked from CO to NC.  Luckily being sheet brass I was able to straighten and fix.  USPS is still helping me, package with three custom painted locos MIA and a week overdue with no tracking info.  I'm shipping UPS or FEDEX  for the foreseeable future.

🤢🤮

My motto is if you can’t drop it out of a plane it isn’t ready to ship! 📦 I go overboard on my packing too but better to much than not enough. 

That’s a shame. I’d blame the person you bought it from before blaming Post office. Total idiot the way it was packaged. 

@Train Nut posted:

Same here Allen.

In this case it's my first dealing with this person, and I don't know if I should politely tell them they need to pack better to avoid issues, or just not say anything.  I was very lucky not to have any damage, but I'm sure not everyone is going to make out that lucky with things he ships.

You should send him photos of what you received.  Also, typically items that are insured come with minimum packing standards which, if not met, result in the claim being denied in the event of damage.  Not sure about USPS standards, but UPS uses them and they are substantial regarding protective materials inside the shipping carton.

@Allan Miller, since I became an Amazon Prime member with free shipping, I have tons of fresh boxes in a wide range of sizes; bubble mailing envelopes in various sizes; etc. so my packing materials are "free."  Shop Amazon more, Allan.

@romiller49 posted:

That’s a shame. I’d blame the person you bought it from before blaming Post office. Total idiot the way it was packaged. 

In my case yes it was more bad packaging even though nothing was damaged, itvery well could have been because of the poor job they did Packaging.. 

I only used the post office reference in my title because it started with the postman dropping it down on the steps. Is it really that hard to place it down?  

I've been living at the current address for 3 years. Still looking for our new home. But in those three years I made really good friends with the previous Postman. He took care of our packages like they were his.  Unfortunately he retired a few months ago.

I think most of us here could share stories of shipping nightmares.

I got a diesel engine that had the front truck broke right off. The seller forgot one block of styrofoam that held the engine in place. Without it, the engine could slide back and forth. Of course, the delivery people stood the engine box on it's end.

 I bought an A-B-A set of EMDs. The seller wrapped them together in bubble wrap. The trouble was they did not put anything in between the engines!

I think it's good to have the same people deliver to your house. You can talk with them so they know not to mishandle your packages. They assume they aren't hurting anything. They have to stay on schedule. It's sad if it makes it across the whole country and then gets broken on your door step!

I get several hundred shipments a year for upgrades and repairs.  I could regale you with stories of what I've seen and the survival and death of various packing methods.  I've seen issues from minor damage to total destruction.  It's always difficult to contact a customer and tell him that shipping has rendered his once valuable locomotive to junk!

One Cardinal Rule of packing is: Anything that can move in the packaging can beat itself to death!

As this thread's previous pictures will attest, much of the damage is on the ends of heavy items, so that's where you should put much of your emphasis.  When I send stuff in factory shipping boxes, I frequently add padding to prevent the item from moving AT ALL inside the Styrofoam.  Even a very small amount of movement can turn into a big problem!  For shipping boxes that the manufacturer has thoughtfully provided holes for "extras" can be an issue.  Many times, especially for heavier items, I fill those holes with high density foam to prevent a heavy item from breaking through the packaging and having room to roam.

Final check:  I shake the package in all dimensions, if I feel anything moving, I'm not done packing!

With all of this, there still have been a couple of instances of shipping damage for outgoing items.  I guess if you try hard enough, you can damage an item in any kind of packaging.

For those that advocate UPS or FedEx over USPS, my personal experience is all of the shipping services have a pretty equal record.  I don't think you're going to improve your record by changing shipping companies.

My worst shipping experience came from someone who had no clue how to ship anything. I purchases a large lot of die cast figurines. The dude just tossed all of them in a giant bag and sent them. The noise they made when I pulled the bag out of the mailbox was heart wrenching.

Not surprisingly paint flecks rained out of the bag like confetti.

I use to work for UPS...the quantity of packages we had to move in a night and what those boxes go through would make you cringe. The journey a package takes is actually quite extensive, and I mostly worked in the "hub", although I did do some package car driving as well. A tremendous facility it was involving mechanical engineering application that was mind blowing.

I've had damaged boxes from all the carriers over the years, and am not so quick to blame one carrier more than others. Packing with extra cushioning is key, and double-box the inner carton with an outer. Thinking like a mechanical engineer here You need to dampen the oscillations of an item moving within its container, and provide outer cushioning for the outer carton damage. More work and more expense, but less headaches.

What gets my goat is when someone doesn't pack "logically" or even with common sense. I received the item below from a train dealer. The inner train accessory box is protruding above the outer shipping carton, and the item was of course delivered broken. No amount of tape or cardboard can compensate for bad packaging. This DOES NOT meet USPS packing guidelines, which I've posted again, below. When I sent him the pictures of the damage he wanted me to pay for return shipping and even had the nerve to want to file a claim...I told him I didn't want anything to do with his shenanigans. This was the 2nd broken item received from that dealer. No more business from me after that. 

I seem to recall years ago USPS had a 2" rule of cushioning between the item and outer carton, but I couldn't find reference to that.

I fondly remember one seller on eBay claiming the loco he shipped would be packed in enough bubble wrap to float the Titanic.

Notwithstanding the lousy packing job, nice looking set of UP Alcos. Hope they run well. Classics.

Everyone who packs and ships should do an apprenticeship in RECEIVING and unpacking packages so they can see the effects of poor packing.

Ordered a MTH RS-1 from a vendoer that shipped it in original MTH packaging via UPS...arrived with all 4 truck side frames in pieces. Returned it to the vendor and they shipped me a replacement via UPS. I watched the UPS driver drop the replacement box from waist high onto the concrete entrance way...broken 3 truck side frames. The vendor then sent me replacement side frames via USPS...only one broken side frame...which I repaired with JB Weld (epoxy).

@harmonyards posted:

Fun thread....I’ll play...MTH Hudson that was shipped to me....no wrapping whatsoever...just tossed in the box....at least the PO tried to cover up the deed...😳

Pat

Reminds me of a Pre-War AF O-gauge steamer I bought years ago on a whim - it had an equivalent level of "packaging". You can imagine what all that old zinc looked like after traveling from the Pacific Northwest to the Gulf Coast. The flanges were broken off, too. I sold it to a Pre-War guy for parts.

Your Hudson may be worse, actually.

When tracking is available, I always pick up my packages at the Post Office, FedEx or UPS center to avoid that one last drop!  Also can check for visible damage at their site.

@Allan Miller posted:

My rule is that whenever I sell/ship something, I pack it the way I would want something I received to be packed. I do NOT cut corners with the time, effort, or materials I use to ship items, and generally ed up losing money be doing so (I always charge actual shipping via UPS or USPS (only), and that does not come close to covering the cost of packaging materials. Just my way of doing things.

 

DITTO for me Allan,  Well stated

@RoyBoy posted:

Never ship a locomotive with the post office. The post office is great with lightweight items, but not so much with heavy ones.

Years ago, I bought the Lionel Milwaukee road 4-8-4. The best price was from the friends of 261. But... they shipped via the post office to save a few bucks. The box looked like it had been tumbled in a drier at a laundromat. The loco was OK, but the Styrofoam insert sacrificed its life during the journey. I can never ship the loco in that Styrofoam insert again.

Ship heavy stuff UPS. It costs a little more, but they are more geared to heavy packages.

UPS is no safe haven at all. We take a risk with any of the carriers. Sellers should go out of their way to over protect.  

SAD but true, I purchased a Williams BRASS UP Challenger some years back at York.  It came without a box and was at a great price.  I shipped it out UPS for an ERR upgrade to Alex Malliae. I went out of my way to over protect the engine. Well, Alex called me with a lot of empathy in his voice that the box was destroyed and the engine was in pieces. OUCH!!!!!     UPS covered my claim so I was bale to recover some of my cost. Whats left of the engine was pieced together and sits idle in an engine house gracing the TMB club layout ans will never run again.

Rule #1  Over protect, you cant use enough bubble wrap and packing materials

Rule #2 Make sure to use a sturdy box

Rule #3 Over insure, You want to double the value as you will need to make the buyer and yourself whole 

@L.I.TRAIN posted:

UPS is no safe haven at all. We take a risk with any of the carriers. Sellers should go out of their way to over protect.  

SAD but true, I purchased a Williams BRASS UP Challenger some years back at York.  It came without a box and was at a great price.  I shipped it out UPS for an ERR upgrade to Alex Malliae. I went out of my way to over protect the engine. Well, Alex called me with a lot of empathy in his voice that the box was destroyed and the engine was in pieces. OUCH!!!!!     UPS covered my claim so I was bale to recover some of my cost. Whats left of the engine was pieced together and sits idle in an engine house gracing the TMB club layout ans will never run again.

Rule #1  Over protect, you cant use enough bubble wrap and packing materials

Rule #2 Make sure to use a sturdy box

Rule #3 Over insure, You want to double the value as you will need to make the buyer and yourself whole 

I've seen the engine Steve mentions above. Crying shame to see such a beauty in pieces.

I've been lucky so far. I had one shipment arrive box in tact but I felt heavy stuff shifting around inside. It was a K-line A5 switcher. The engine and tender were securely wrapped but the seller didn't put anything around them inside. Fortunately no damage was discovered when it was unwrapped.

I have all of my purchases shipped to my office. Both FedEx and UPS drivers know me and always watch out for my boxes. USPS gets picked up by our mailroom from the local PO. The "last mile" can be the worst.

Bob

Not a train however it made the trip to Moscow, Russia without a scratch, still functioning. No broke filaments in the tubes.  Attached photos of steps to build a box for shipment.   BOX in a BOX.   Use these techniques and you can ship your trains to Moscow without damage. Something I strive for is keeping everything perfectly tight and rigid inside the inner box but I want some give in the packaging between the inner and outer box. Tightly packed peanuts will compress but bounce back keeping the inner box snug but allow for controlled deceleration after a drop.     j

@L.I.TRAIN posted:

UPS is no safe haven at all. We take a risk with any of the carriers. Sellers should go out of their way to over protect.  

SAD but true, I purchased a Williams BRASS UP Challenger some years back at York. 

Do you know if that loco has 21: 1 gearbox or a 42:1 gearbox.  if it is the 21:1 box I would like to buy the gearbox from you. It's easy to remove just take the four screws off the bottom and the top with all the gears lifts up and off.  I don't need the gear on the axle.    I would also buy the flywheel don't want the motor it's not a good motor for a train.     j

@JohnActon posted:

Not a train however it made the trip to Moscow, Russia without a scratch, still functioning. No broke filaments in the tubes.  Attached photos of steps to build a box for shipment.   BOX in a BOX.   Use these techniques and you can ship your trains to Moscow without damage. Something I strive for is keeping everything perfectly tight and rigid inside the inner box but I want some give in the packaging between the inner and outer box. Tightly packed peanuts will compress but bounce back keeping the inner box snug but allow for controlled deceleration after a drop.     j

Now thats bullet proof packing!

My Today What About Thought:  When possible, perhaps a modeler should consider making personal pick ups* to insure that models will arrive back home safe and sound, or have a friend who lives within a reasonable distance from the dealer or person the train was purchased from do the job for you?

*In the years BC (Before Corona) this might even have included a trip on Amtrak, by bus (Greyhound, Trailways, etc.), economy flight, or...?  Costly?  Not if you could have arranged a side trip to railfan or visit a relative or friend in the deal. 

Today?  Not easy but still not impossible.

@JohnActon posted:

Do you know if that loco has 21: 1 gearbox or a 42:1 gearbox.  if it is the 21:1 box I would like to buy the gearbox from you. It's easy to remove just take the four screws off the bottom and the top with all the gears lifts up and off.  I don't need the gear on the axle.    I would also buy the flywheel don't want the motor it's not a good motor for a train.     j

John

Thanks for asking. However all the guts of this engine were removed and sold off long ago. For now it graces the TMB CLub layout in an engine house.

Steve

@johnstrains posted:

Notwithstanding the lousy packing job, nice looking set of UP Alcos. Hope they run well. Classics.

Thanks.  Put on a test track and ran great.  Even the horn worked.  Im going to service them soon.  Still living in this crummy temporary apartment so it'll be a while before I can actually enjoy running them.!  

Got a great one for you that I never saw coming; bought a Lionel Rotary Beacon tower on the bay; delivered by USPS to me in Florida - you know........it rains there.

Mail truck showed up that rainy day with hatch that was stuck open - hence, packages that day got a good soaking.  Luckily, the lady that packaged the tower had double boxed it so rain didn't make it to the 2nd box.  Now, I ask you, in what world does delivering rain soaked packages seem OK???

The craziest delivery I had was a Williams Pennsylvania RDC powered & non powered set without boxes that the seller carefully wrapped in padded priority mail envelopes and them packaged the two wrapped units inside two more priority mail envelopes. I don't know how but the two units arrived in perfect like new condition. They traveled From NY to Tampa Florida without any damage and I was shocked at the outcome. 

@JohnActon posted:

Not a train however it made the trip to Moscow, Russia without a scratch, still functioning. No broke filaments in the tubes.  Attached photos of steps to build a box for shipment.   BOX in a BOX.   Use these techniques and you can ship your trains to Moscow without damage. Something I strive for is keeping everything perfectly tight and rigid inside the inner box but I want some give in the packaging between the inner and outer box. Tightly packed peanuts will compress but bounce back keeping the inner box snug but allow for controlled deceleration after a drop.     j

A delight on two fronts; 1st to a former Heathkit builder, secondly most satisfying to see such a well engineered and executed packing job! That's at least 1.5 Attaboys!

George

Gene H: Are you the same Gene who frequented Chester Holley's Tampa train shop back in the "Good Olde Days"...?  I'm the dude based on the giant Playmobile Deutsche Bundesbahn conductor that his daughter Diane put on display in the store.  Guys I hung around with when I visited the area each year from Germany: Greg M., the late Robert Taff, Stanley J., plus I was an honorary member of The Boomers, which included Chester of course, Bill Lenoir, Ken Haverson, and some St. Pete modelers.  Great bunch of model railroaders, sadly, all have passed on to the Roundhouse in the Sky that's found just beyond the Big Rock Candy Mountains.  RIP men, you're all missed big time!

Joe

Joseph Toth Jr.

Item: The PO people, here and in the States, have been very effecient "loosing"...? several registered letters I mailed to parties in Tampa some years back.  I even received a letter from a one time dealer in Montana* with a rubber stamp notice on the rear of the envelope: Missent to the Phillipines!  That was a whopper not even Burger King could top.  LOL?  No, not LOL, but I'm not permitted to quote myself what I said when I received the letter...OK, OK, LOL.  Why ruin everybody's day afterall...?  Guess I better take a blood pressure pill...LOL

* The hobby shop, Eastern Model RR Company" was located in Hungry Horse, Mont.  The owner had relocated from NJ out west.  He has also passed on to the Roundhouse in the Sky.  Was as honest as the longest day of the year too!

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

Gene H: Are you the same Gene who frequented Chester Holley's Tampa train shop back in the "Good Olde Days"...?  I'm the dude based on the giant Playmobile Deutsche Bundesbahn conductor that his daughter Diane put on display in the store.  Guys I hung around with when I visited the area each year from Germany: Greg M., the late Robert Taff, Stanley J., plus I was an honorary member of The Boomers, which included Chester of course, Bill Lenoir, Ken Haverson, and some St. Pete modelers.  Great bunch of model railroaders, sadly, all have passed on to the Roundhouse in the Sky that's found just beyond the Big Rock Candy Mountains.  RIP men, you're all missed big time!

Joe

 

Hi Joe

Yes it's me. How you been. My email is in my profile.

Gene

 

@GeoPeg posted:

A delight on two fronts; 1st to a former Heathkit builder, secondly most satisfying to see such a well engineered and executed packing job! That's at least 1.5 Attaboys!

George

George my father showed up with two of these Heathkit W5 kits around 1961 or 2  he built one of them and I built the other. By then we had several stereo records but only an old sears HiF console to play them on.  We had been scrapping bits and pieces together for a Stereo system. Dad had built a stereo preamp and speakers the last thing we needed were two amps. The soldering irons did not cool down for four days.  Even after I brought a bunch of solid state stereo equipment back from Vietnam  I would still play around with the W5's on the bench. Today they have a cult following. When saw what a good matched pair would bring on eBay I had to wrestle with myself a bit but I imagined a shiny new MTH Southern Crescent Pacific and that helped ease the separation anxiety. I sold them in two auctions spaced a day apart and the same guy from Russia won both.        j

My latest ebay purchase, a 675 postwar steamer.  Thin cardboard box with minimum bubble wrap.  It was not damaged...hard to believe!!  USPS...like the fragile sticker is supposed to help.  I even left specific instructions with seller to pack carefully!!

Fendermain

The OP subject  was about getting that sick feeling when you get the THUD. I got it yesterday.... but no worries is was a set of Snap On Metric impact sockets. Nick