Your thoughts on Sunset 3rd Rail steamers?

You can't beat them for the money. I just bought the Jawn Henry.  Like all of their steamers, well built, runs well, well detailed for the money. You can't ask for more.  I have over a dozen and I am pleased with all of them.

That is what I would have said.  Not qualified to answer your question, but dollar for dollar, Sunset is pretty darn good.

The small runs allow 3rd Rail to offer engines that the other manufacturers can't and/or won't. I have the N&W K3, K2a, and TE-1. The M is on preorder. Someday I hope to get a Y6a. I already have a JLC Y6b; that one will be hard to beat.

If Scott will build a S1a or Z1a, I'm buying those too. As much as I love the streamlined J, it has been done so many times I'd beg Scott not to do it!

Just my $0.02

Gilly

I also have a 3rd Rail S2 and am counting the days till York. JDS Ltd will be doing a PS2 upgrade on it. They did the upgrade on my K3 and it is simply outstanding!

I now have almost 20 Sunset/3rd Rail steam locomotive models. They all run great, on my home layout as well as out big modular layout (Independent Hi-Railers, Midwest Division).

The have offered many railroad specific steam locomotive models, such as CB&Q 4-6-4s (3 different versions), CB&Q 4-8-4s (2 different versions), CB&Q 2-10-4s (both versions), Northern Pacific A Class 4-8-4s (3 different versions), NP 4-6-6-4s (2 different versions), NP Z5 2-8-8-4, NYC J3a "Super Hudson" in all three road numbers, and the SP 4-10-2 three cylinder. These are just some examples of steam locomotive models that you would probably NOT see MTH, Lionel, nor Weaver produce. 

I have only one sample: the very recent ATSF 2900 Northern. 

It is a spectacular model - detailed, accurate, impressive to look at.  it is also very delicate and easy to snag small details and bend them, etc.

Mine had TMCC installed.  That is an older control system and not as modern as Legacy, etc.  Cruise, slow speed linearity and smoothness, were just not nearly as good.  Sound was okay, but not as good as the best recent Legacy locos.  Still, it ran . . . can't argue with that.

Anyway, I decided to use it as a display model only - I am happy with it doing that.  it is in a display case in my office, at work, and I get people admiring it all the time. Very glad I bought it.

My experience echos what SWH said. My newest, purchased new from Scott was nearly flawless. My used engines have all required work including two that had never been removed from the original packaging. Parts for the older models are difficult to obtain.

Best advice is either buy new or one you can inspect before purchasing unless you have experience working with brass engines and feel comfortable making your own repairs.

Pete

 Originally Posted by Hot Water:

Which three numbers did they make again? I had only seen 5447 and 5451.

I will have to offer a differing view. I bought the NYC Mercury when it came out and the darn thing would not keep running. The drive rods literally flew apart while running. The gear box was noisy. The trailing truck fell apart, and there were other things that I forgot about.

I took it back to third rail several times. Gary fixed it for me every time for free, and then something else would break. when I finally got rid of it, the only thing left from my original was the boiler casting.

Granted, this is a sample size of only one, but it soured me on their products. In my opinion, they get top awards for personal service, but low marks for requiring service in the first place.

The only loco I have ever owned that was worse was the first Williams Dreyfus Hudson, but that is another story.

I think this is really good advise.

I like the look of the brass engines, almost all my steam engines are WEAVER & 3RD Rail brass. The only die cast engines run are 2 K-line PRR k4 , an MTH PRR Y3 and a LIONEL READING RR T-1 with DC motor and TMCC by TIMKO .

My newer 3rd rail engines [ PRR T1 & M1's ] run great right out the box and have not had any issues. Got a lot of great assistance on the phone with Gary on a few of the earlier engines, especially the PRR J1 & Q2's.

I guess I have the opposite experience with my DMIR Yellowstone. Absolutely stunning detail but mine broke a tiny non functional moving part after two or three laps and the sound was static ridden. I can't find the part. But it is a beautiful piece which sits on static display above my work bench. It is so detailed I am afraid to send it back due to potential damage. I don't think I could ever repack the loco.

I only have 1 so far, but a couple other new models on order from 3rd Rail. Tons of detail, which is what I like. If you're looking for steam whistle and cylinders then 3rd Rail is NOT for you. I have the GS4 4449 with TMCC and Railsounds 4. I prefer the details over the smoking whistle and cylinders anyway.

I was in fact working on mine today. Doing some detail painting (actually correcting the colors) of some small parts on the engine and tender. Got rid of the white wall tires as well. Also ordered a new Fatboy speaker with enclosure to replace the cheap factory speaker which is the source of the average sound quality.

This is the factory look with white wall tires and silver cab ladder.  

White walls are gone, cab ladder blends in as it should, and corrected a few colors on the front of the boiler.

Factory look tender had too many silver hand rails...so they are going away too. The side ladder will be painted to blend in to the side of the tender as it should.

The "El Cheapo" speaker is going bye bye too! It also now has a Kadee coupler on the tender instead of the electro coupler.

I bought the SF 2900 series northern second hand and it has some running issues but I cannot say whether those issues resulted from the manufacturing process or the original owner's use or perhaps shipping. The locomotive is, by far, the most detailed I Have. Simply gorgeous. Sounds are fair (compared to Legacy) and in terms of value, if it worked properly I would say fair. These are expensive locos. I believe the original price was about $1400.

I now have three locos from them including two diesels. I have found getting in touch with the manufacturer and chatting with service is not at all easy. Nice people, but there are telephone issues.

Scrappy

Slideshow of a Pennsy E6 recently acquired, secondary market. Click on the underlined phrase.  Decent detail IMO.

Number 5453 was the third J3a "Super Hudson".

A 3rd RAIL PRR M1b mountain.

My CNW is by far the best looking most detailed loco on my layout and it sounds just as good and runs just as well as any Lionel or MTH. 3rd Rail makes locos nobody else can and Scott is very helpful and wants his customers happy. The most important part is that the loco worked right out of the box

3rd Rail builds engines that we otherwise wouldn't get at a price point that isn't much more than mass-produced die cast. Though the detail level of die cast has improved dramatically over the past several years, primarily through adding brass details instead of casting them on, brass still has the edge. The only catch is you have to be much more careful when handling the engine.

I have the first 3rd rail release -- the Pennsy S2 Turbine. Bought it without sound and smoke. Runs well and for its time is very well detailed. One of these days I'm going to install a Proto-2 (or Proto-3) command kit in it and put it back into general service.

Fast-forward about 20 years, I also have one of the most recent 3rd Rail releases -- the CNW H1 Northern. The detail is over the top, including sand lines by the drivers. Big sound and command control. Relatively speaking, when you factor in inflation, it's actually less than the first engine I bought. Much better value.

As a 2-railer, I realize that handbuilt brass is much more fragile than diecast mass produced locos.   I currently have sunset 3rd rail steamers and 2 of the older ones when it was just called Sunset.    In 2 rail, we install our own control systems, at least in older ones, so electronic wizz-bangs are not an issue.   I also have the recent Gas-Electric.   They need to be handled as  a scale model.   

As stated the detail is much better generally than diecast.   This is especially obvious in the thickness of things like tender coal boards, or cab sides.   

Another big, big point is that all the steamers have articulated side rods (the rods connecting the drivers to each other).   this allows them to navigate sharper curves.    All the diecast I have seen (admittedly somewhat limited) have one piece side rods.   One piece works fine in 3 rail if all except center drivers are blind.   However, if the center drivers have flanges as most 2 rail, one piece side rods limit side play on curves quite a bit.   For example, I have a Max Grey PRR 2-10-4.   It will go around 54 inch radius curves.   I test ran an MTH version of the same model with solid side rods and it would just barely navigate 72 inch radius!

Mechanically, most of the 3rd rail stuff has been really good.   All of mine have great mechanisms and run well and smoothly.   I particularly like their belt drives.   I did have some problems with their High Iron K4 when I test ran it.   But it was mostly due to a very new and tight mechansim I think.

Very nice!!  Only 2-Chuffs per revolution? I thought there was a switch under the cab to select 2-Chuffs or 4-Chuffs, unless that is a very early model. Still looks great, however.

I have the Anniversary UP Big Boy from 2002.  Bought it new old stock. Has TMCC and Railsounds 4.0.  Great runner.  No issues except very fragile details.  Easy to break off.  Must handle with extreme care.  I bring it to the club once in a while but always worry about breaking some details.  I did break a couple of details a couple of years ago and Scott fixed them in his Northern California office instead of sending me to his repair shop in Wisconsin.   I live in California so the less it is knocked around by the gorillas at UPS the less it might get damaged again.  As it was, when Scott shipped the repaired engine back to me it had new damage from shipping.  I fixed it myself with Weld-on.  I did not want to get in the do loop of sending it back up and getting more damage.

Always pick up the engines by holding the cab in one hand-let the fingers hold it, and the front cylinders in the other hand with your fingers.  You can't handle brass like you do die-cast.  If you do it this way there should be no problems.

Hi Kenn....I have four 3rd Rail steamers.....all in PRR livery. The detail is unmatched. I have several Weaver brass locos and I love 'em, but the detail on 3rd rail is "what you pay for". 

Others are more qualified to answer technical questions, but for me.....I love these locos. No problems running on my layout!  Tom in PGH

I have a flock of 3rdRail steamers (although not in Hot Water's league). I've only had problems with 3 of them: My PRR J1 and C&O T1 have to have work done on the driver suspension to keep them on the rails at O72 curvature. My M1b female part of the tether broke and I had to have it repaired. My High-Iron K4 wouldn't pull very well until I had run it for a while.

That's all the negativity I have to report.

I have NEVER had a 3rd Rail steamer fail to run out of the box.

You do have to recognize that these locos have more delicate detail and therefore must handle them accordingly.

I agree with the comment upthread about the difficulty in reaching someone by telephone.

Thanks for that info, and I'm surprised they didn't do a 5450. Seems like a nice "neat" number.

There were only three J3a "Super Hudson" locomotives with that exact configuration, besides the 5450 blew up it's boiler, so the running gear from 5450 went under #5447 (I think, that was the number).

I just recall in Al Stauffer's Thoroughbreds the chapter on J3a's opened with a big photo of 5450 in the "Super" configuration, which as far as I knew consisted of Selkirk boiler front, Worthington feedwater heater, Scullin drivers w/ roller bearing rods, and PT tender (if there are more distinguishing features I would enjoy learning about them). Something about that nice "neat" number appeals to me more than the rest, and in that book there was a testimony from one of the engineers that 5450 was one of the best running Hudsons (before it blew up and killed her crew!). Very interesting history on that locomotive.

Anyway, here is Koh's model:

http://www.kohs.com/nyc%20late...ate%20J3a%20Home.htm

Hi Folks,

I have several 3rd-Rail steam engines including the NYC Mercury.  I haven't had problems with any of them.  I run them using TMCC and O-72 track.

I also have three 3rd Rail diesel engines.  All of them run fine.

I am very satisfied with my 3rd-Rail purchases.

Joe

My thoughts...wish I had one of those N&W K2a steamers sitting on my layout, I don't care that the drivers are too small, but other things are a priority right now so I'm out of luck.

I have three:

1. ATSF 3800-Class 2-10-2 - This one was perfect, right out of the box and has run for hours at a time at train shows.  It was an excellent runner, but recently has become cranky.  It developed a short.  I found a brake shoe touching a driver and repositioned it, and the engine worked fine at first, but then stopped.  I attempted to reset the TMCC and the engine had a runaway.  This happened twice in a row, so it's now on my workbench to be tested on the roller base.  This is a TMCC issue.
2. ATSF 3700-Class 4-8-2 - This one also ran fine right out of the box, but, while using it to test my layout at Trainworx, it derailed on a turnout, and has not moved since.  Still working on it, but it's apparently a TMCC thing also.
3. ATSF 2900-Class 4-8-4 - I ordered road number 2929, which was marked on the box, but the engine and tender inside was numbered 2925.  Oh, well.  I talked with Scott to see if there was a widespread problem and he offered to trade it for a 2929, but I did not want to be a crybaby over something so unimportant in the long run.  The engine, though, has had two problems.  The first was the tendency of the engine truck to have wheel lift on O72 reverse curves.  I fixed that by removing a screw that was probably there just for shipping.  The other is that the cab apron is just a bit too narrow for 3-rail model railroading.  On O-72 reverse curves, it goes off the front floor of the tender and then when the locomotive starts to turn the other direction, tips the tender.  The 2-10-2 has a support under the apron to prevent this but the 4-8-4 does not.  And this is not just my engine.  Roger Farkash has one (2929, wouldn't you know ), and we ran them both and produced identical problems.

Unless there was a major problem, I would not re-pack the engine for return to the west coast for warranty repair.  Sunset/3rd Rail recommends a shop somewhere in Montana or Idaho for post-warranty repairs, but Chuck Sartor is only 8 hours away and then UPS does not have an opportunity to do damage in transit.  I'm going to make a little sashay up to Denver to Chuck Sartor with the Little 3700 and - if I can't get it to run properly - the 3800.  The service fellow at Sunset/3rd Rail is not good about following up and returning calls.  Previously, Scott had a really good service guy, but he is no longer there.

I can live with the delicacy of these finely-detailed engines, and have nothing but the best things to say about Scott Mann.  He will make anything right within the warranty period, and always responds to his customers.

I do wish I had bought a pair of Santa Fe Budd RDC-1's when he offered them, but can blame nobody but myself for having missed that opportunity.

Well now, I'd be very interested and obliged to know what speaker you are using to replace the one shown above and where you're getting it from.

Reason: the one thing that lets down 3rd Rail models is the sound, at least compared with current Legacy offerings; lighting comes in second but I have worked out how to deal with that. Of course 3rd Rail are stuck with Lionel generic Railsounds 4 as the base system but a better speaker might resolve some of the static and other sound fidelity issues I have encountered.The speaker shown in your photo appears to me to be the one used not only in the GS4 but also in the 3rd Rail E7 diesels that I have, all of which could do with improvement in the sound department.

I have a number of 3rd Rail engines (and GGD cars) that I would not swap for ANYTHING similar currently made by Lionel or MTH, but the gap in operating features is not small.

P.S. At the risk of forfeiting help on my speaker question, I think it's sacrilege to paint over whitewalls.

I would be interested in knowing more about the speaker replacement as well.

In addition, has anyone tried replacing the generic RS4 sound board with something better.

I bought the 50mm Fat Boy speaker with mounting plate and enclosure (baffle) from forum member Boxcar Bill. It arrived Tuesday just as I left for a couple days so I plan on putting in tomorrow (Thursday) when I get home.

The 4449 doesn't normally (saw them in a few pictures only) run with white walls unless its in Freedom Train colors. I think they look better black to blend into the overall paint scheme of the train/engine. Not to worry though, I'll share my speaker upgrade info as it progresses.

Actually, you're getting a bargain because of the 3-rail production. The volume of 3-rail sales allows the importer to amortize design and tooling costs over a much larger production run, resulting in a lower price for everybody. If Sunset only made the quantity of each engine to meet the demand for 2-rail, the cost per unit would be at least 50% more than what you are paying now. 

Still true with steam but not of passenger cars or diesels.  Scott said 3-rail demand is dropping and 2-rail demand rising in all areas.

Interesting trend.

"3-rail demand is dropping and 2-rail demand rising in all areas"

Well, if you stop to think about it, if you were in 2 rail O gauge, where could you buy engines? Not very many mfgs out there are there? Few can afford the high end models that are thousands of dollars, so Sunset's pricing is more affordable. Unless you want to buy an overpriced die-cast engine from the 50's with no electronics in it.

Whereas if you are in 3 rail, the competition to Sunset is readily available and often at more attractive pricing. So while Sunsets 2 rail sales are up, doubt that means many are leaving 3 rail to go to 2 rail. Again if you ponder it, how many friends do you know that went to 2 rail, only to come back to 3 rail after a while? And there can be many reasons for this, limited availability of items, having to do tedious expensive conversions, or most likely the fact 2 rail requires a lot of real estate to make a layout with those wide curves. Not knocking 2 rail, it looks far more realistic. Not knocking Sunset at all, Scott does a great job producing a fine product. Just stating some practical facts that really don't indicate a lot of the hobby will migrate to 2 rail.

Here's the rest of the speaker swap on the GS-4. Replaced the factory speaker with the Fatboy and Enclosure.

https://ogrforum.com/t...=lastReply#lastReply

My experience with 3rd Rail engines is limited to one model, the ATSF Mountain....a beautiful engine with exceptional detail.  On this point I agree with all of the glowing posts.  I also agree that Scott Mann is a class act and goes out his way to provide excellent customer service.  

I completely disagree with a previous comment that 3rd Rail engines run as well as Legacy engines. Of course, this is a subjective measure of an engine.  As much as I admire Scott Mann and the engines he produces they do not run or sound anywhere near the caliber of Legacy equipped engines (I own no MTH engines so I can't make any comparison between 3 Rail and MTH).  Legacy equipped engines start and stop way more smoothly and "realistically" than 3 Rail engines.  My 3rd Rail engine stopped and started faster (less realistically) than my Legacy engines.  Dialing up EFX on a Legacy engine creates a dramatic increase in sound intensity and chuff that is far superior to the generic and anemic sounds of the 3rd Rail Mountain that I had.  

Smoking whistles and cylinders aside, for me Legacy engines run significantly better than 3rd Rail engines.  It all comes down to the consumer's preference.  If you value detail over all else then you will be very happy with 3rd Rail engines.  If you enjoy playing with your trains at low speeds and perform many starts and stops then you may prefer a Legacy equipped engine.  Ultimately, we each have preferences based on how we play with our trains.  As long as you enjoy it, you bought the right one.