Z4000 for more power?

One Z-4000 would not handle two 11 car passenger trains pulled by WEAVER E-8's AA with four motors each train

It would if you convert the passenger cars to LED lighting.

 

Z4000 internal breakers open when current exceeds 10 amps, per circuit.  I run a 9-car incandescent passenger train and 2 freights (6 motors total, smoke off) on a single handle (circuit) externally breakered for 7.5 amps with no problem

 

I'll take Charlie's word that 2 11-car trains would exceed 10 amps, but the Z4000 could handle the load, if you split the layout so each loco is on a separate handle.  Gunrunnerjohn is correct.  I modified all my Williams passenger cars (didn't get to the MTH's) and my main station to LED strip lights, as explaiined in another thread a few months ago.

My 8 car passenger car consist went from over three amps to a couple hundred milli-amps with the LED lighting.  The lights are more even and the correct intensity as a bonus.

Gentlemen,

    You are looking at this power situation in the wrong manner, you set your

DCS layout up in blocks running with as many different transformers as you need.

My MTH P2 GG-1 pulled 14 big lighted cars with 3 different transformers set up in Phase over many different blocks, controlled by the DCS.  Engineer your layout correctly, get into Barry's DCS O Gauge Companion and the OGR Video guide more deeply and engineer your layout in blocks controlled by as many different transformers as required.

PCRR/Dave

 

Dave, strictly speaking, this isn't a DCS problem.  It's a power problem.  Once that is solved, the TIU ampacity issue is resolvable.

RJR,

   Understand your point, that is why I posted a picture of the PCRR power

station, if you under power your layout nothing works correctly.  Correct power with

blocks is the way to go. LED lighting in the rolling stock helps greatly, I even have LED lights in my old Lionel switches and switch controllers, and run them from their own transformer.

PCRR/Dave

Just wanted to make sure that the casual reader didn't think this was a shortcoming of DCS.

RJR,

   Roger that I never thought of it in that manner, thanks for catching it.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek, in your photo you used ZWs; would smaller ones like 1033s, KWs, etc. work? Also, how do you check for "in phase". Also, what happens if two "loaded" trains make it into the same block and overload the circuit? John and others,I like the idea of installing LEDs in the cars (I was involved in that earlier discussion) but the strips I've purchased have bright point sources of light.  Is there really a soft white LED? Who has the best?

 

Wally

This is how I do mine,the circuit is for command users. They are warm white with a wide view angle. 6 will do a 21 inch car and light is spread evenly. If too bright a larger resistor will dim them down.

 

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowThread?id=407

 

Dale H

If you buy the warm-white LED strips and run them at a fairly low intensity, they come up looking great.  While I'm sure Dale's method will work, it's also quite a bit more work.   If six LED's give you even lighting, 20 or more will give you very even lighting.

 

The only way a Z4000 will handle 2 11 car passenger trains is if your loop is divided such that one handle powers half the loop and the other, the other half. That way each side is only running one train. 

I agree LED lighting is a simpler solution and might not even require the use of a more powerful transformer.

 

Pete

Wally,
   You bet, most any older type transformer like the KW & ZW can be run with the remote control off/On system.  In fact they all can except some like the Z4K need to have the handles in the down/off position to initiate there power.  The easiest way to make sure your transformers are in Phase is with the spark test, plug both transformers in, join the negative leads of the transformer together, turn both transformers on to about 10 Amps, take the positive leads and touch them together quickly, if it causes a big spark the transformers are out of Phase, if there is no spark, you are in Phase already, if they are out of Phase, shut the transformers off, simply take one of the transformer plugs, put an adaptor on it and put the plug with the adapter back in the 120 wall plug, oppsite of the way it came out.  Mark the adaptor and the transformer plug with white permanent magic marker, to identify how it must go into the 120 outlet all the time.  Retest your the transformers again to assure you did the job correctly.  Some people like to rewire their transformers to assure they are always in Phase, in reality this is not really necessary.  When using the remote control system, simply plug the transformer into the remote control switch in the same manner you would have plugged them into the 120 outlet, then plug the remote control switch into the 120 outlet.  Done correctly your transformers are in phase and good to go using the remote control system.  You can then use your DCS with multipule transformers which as Barry just indicated can be all brought on line at the push of the remote control button.  Norton with multipule transformers in Phase you have lots of power to run your DCS layout, when layed out in blocks.

Have fun
PCRR/Dave




One last recommendation, when running a DCS controlled layout, always set up a permanent Programming track like the one you see above my transformer station for Programming your P2 & P3 Engines, it makes life a lot simpler.

Forget aboout DCS for a moment.  If you have a Z4000, start both trains running on a single handle and see what the amperage is.  If 10 or under, no sweat.

 

Another alternative is to put smaller bulbs in each passenger car.  For example, Williams cars have large, bright power hungry bulbs.  A 1445 or 1447 (differ only in base type) would drae less power.

 

My LEDs are from China also.  By building voltage regulators, rather than current regulators, I feed voltage less than the 12 volts for which they are rated.

 

Also, isn't there someone (I forget the name) who markets LEDs that plug directly into incandescent sockets?

Adding more power and creating blocks is much less work than converting all those cars. It doesnt matter if you run that Z4000 with 2 blocks and both handles. 10 amps total period, on a single handle or both combined. For those trains he listed, he'll need more power if he dont convert the passenger cars to LEDs

When you say "both combined," you're not clear.  If you mean both handles tied together, I'm told that makes Z4000 shut down.  If you keep them separate, each handle can deliver 10 amps.

I run both handles to the same loop all the time

Do they feed different blocks?

The manual specifically states not to do that unless they are connected to seperate blocks.

You beat this drum a bit, but constant current regulation accomplishes exactly the same thing, less brightness.

 

I have one loop 3 scale miles long with a large yard and a large industrial area. At one corner, there is a break in the track where my gate entrance is, no blocks. Been doing this for a few years now. I use fixed 1 and fixed two on the TIU. One handle feeds one side of display and the other feeds the other side. Kept popping the breaker on Z4000 when the layout was smaller and electrically split in half. Since I made it larger and made the whole thing electrically one piece runs great with 10 for a signal. 8 diesel locomotives at one time.

 

Clem

gunrunnerjohn.  I don't want the regulators to be custom for location, which is necessary if I regulate current; you have to figure how muchg current you want per LED and multiply by the number of LEDS and construct your regulator accordingly. 

 

By regulating voltage, I can build the same regulator for a 3-LED or a 50-LED circuit.  When I convert a car or a stion, I just pull a pre-built regulator out of my box (I have to sit down and make another half-dozen for stock if I find the time.)  I vary the brightness by setting the voltage through selection of resistors. 

 

I'm not beating the drum any more than you---I just want forumites to be aware that there is a method other than the one you beat your drum for.  I feel my approach has advantages--you feel yours does. 

Clem,

 

If your two Z4000 handles are feeding the same tracks, you are setting yourself up for a very large problem. If you feel that you must do this, invest in a TPC and use it to safely combine the two handles.

Barry what does a TPC do? 

 

Clem

In addition to doing other things, it safely combines multiple power supplies.

Barry

Do I only need one? Does it act like a quick circuit breaker? I run six unit lashups, sometimes more. DCS manual says I can go ten, haven't tried that yet. 

 

Clem

I'm not sure I agree that the TPC brings anything to the party.  In the end analysis, you still have the two power supplies connected directly in parallel on the inputs.  I understand that you can get away with that with plain transformer bricks as they will equalize the load.  If the Z4000 doesn't like it's outputs connected together to the track, I can't imagine it's going to like it any more feeding a TPC, also with it's outputs connected directly together.

 

Clem, What type of current draw do you see from each amp meter on the Z-4000?

 

When transformer are at full voltage, any difference in load sharing will be based on the slight differences in Voltage outputs.  The warning is because you now have high current in a single loop.  Plus you could have circular currents flowing if you were regulating voltage to the loop through the transformer handles. (One output at 10V and the other at 12 as an example).

 

I knew a gentleman that ran lash ups on a large loop.  Usually 3 2 pulmore motor units pulling a train, and 2 unit could be on the layout.  He had block but still had 4 10A transformer per block.  Otherwise the transformers would trip when both engines entered the same block.

 

It works until a derailment than you had 40 amps available to short.  The damage was spectacular.

 

I would just install 10amp quick blow fuses at each transformer output, and ensure you have a kill switch available.   G

 

 

I use a bigger DC power supply...say a 25 amp unit and wire the TIU in passive mode with fuses. I fuse for 5 amps over the load.

GGG

 

Each handle is about 3 amps. When all seven engines are on the same side of the display the largest draw is 6.1. The amps and voltage change as the trains move around. I think I found out why I don't have any problem the track is actually spilt into two blocks. When I did my expansion. I changed from a oval to a loop to loop,  added a peninsula in the middle. The swinging gate access to center of display breaks the electrical connection. Each side of gate is fed from each side of the original oval. I never did add anymore power feeds to expansion. Forgot about this until you asked me about the amps. So I have to apologize to everyone for the misinformation on my part.

 

Clem 

 

PS I still need more power and a remote capable transformers.

See bottom of page 3 in regard to wiring both sides of a z-4000 together.

The z-4000 throttles will be wired together on a TPC4000.

I agree with you, I see no difference electrically connecting them together on the input of the TPC as opposed to simply connecting them directly to the track.

It is an interesting warning especially the use of the word "Short".  Considering that if you have 2 loops with cross over they are electrically connected when a train passes from one loop to the next.  That doesn't knock a Z-4000 out.  Doesn't knock out my Lionel ZW-C either.  The warning may me there to prevent folks from trying to connect the 10 or 14V with the 22V output.  G

 

I suspect they have to tolerate a momentary connection for the reasons you state.  I wonder if the handles was at significantly different positions would that be a different story?

 

This is an interesting discussion, because if one considers it in depth one can see all sorts of issues.  In the following, I consider a postwar ZW since it doesn't have many (if any) safety features:

 

1. If using a single ZW, with one handle controlling each loop or block, if the handles are at different settings, say one at 8 volts and one at 20, when a loco or dual-rollered lighted car crosses over the gap between the blocks, there is a short circuit driven by 12 volts (less IR drop from the high amperage flowing through the circuit and a few coils of the ZW secondary).  This could be a fire hazard inside the lighted cars.  It also bypasses the internal circuit breaker of the ZW, so if left on the ZW could overheat as well.  This is an argument for putting breakers and/or fuses on the A,B,C, & D terminals of the ZW.

 

2. If using 2 ZWs, properly phased, with one handle of each controlling adjoining loops/blocks, with one handle set at 8 volts and then other set at 20, and a loco or lighted car bridges the gap, I suspect that there is also a 12 volt short, less the IR drop caused by the high amperage going through all the secondary windings of the 20-volt transformer and a few windings of the 8-volt transformer.

 

3. If  both transformers are out-of phase,  with one handle set at 8 volts and then other set at 20, and a loco or lighted car bridges the gap, then you have a short driven at 28 volts less the IR drop caused by the high amperage going through all the secondary windings of the 20-volt transformer and a few windings of the 8-volt transformer.  You'll probably damage a loco or dual-rollered car internally.

 

4.Do be aware that if you have multiple transformers, for safety reasons you should turn them all on or all off at one time by using a power strip (or equivalent) with a switch and breaker, rather than by plugging them in one-after-another.

 

 

1) a fuse or breaker would not protect this kind of occurrence on a PWZW connecting A and D for example it is not really a short circuit to common.

 

Dale H

Dale, if you fuse it right at the transformer, it will protect against that short.  The transformer's internal breaker doesn't protect it, this has been discussed several times.

I am not sure how it protects if A and D get connected. Please explain.

 

Dale H