@B Smith posted:Keeping your trains in their unopened boxes won't cure zinc pest, it will keep the problem out of sight and therefore "out of mind!"
Wasn’t that the point?
Pat
Oh, perhaps I misunderstood -- I thought the point was to prevent or delay the zinc rot, not just sweep it under the rug. If you really want to avoid the problem, stick with brass ...
I’d like to see what the cost would be for curiosities sake what it would take for 3 rail captured axle locomotives to be cast entirely of brass, …..or cast brass frame, and sheet brass boiler, or brass trucks for diesels. …..Scott obviously does it in superior scale fidelity already, but his frames for obvious reasons are more prototypical than that of say MTH, or Lionel, …..I’d love to know if the cost difference between pig pot metal, ( what we have now ) and cast brass is that gravely apart.., ……even on one component like say, the drive block with wheels for a Lionel or MTH scale steam locomotive.
Pat
@romiller49 posted:This is Ogauge but has anybody experienced zinc rot with Gilbert American Flyer trains?
Yes. I have seen this one time with an AF switcher that utterly dissolved in its box.
@romiller49 posted:This is Ogauge but has anybody experienced zinc rot with Gilbert American Flyer trains?
Assumption: you're talking about the S-gauge 1:64 product?
Can't answer from experience. But I got to thinking about the timelines of Lionel, A.C. Gilbert's American Flyer, and U.S. manufacturing experience/solution re Zinc Rot in, essentially, the pre-war years.
My story in my earlier post above re Dad's Lionel standard gauge train of the mid-1930's was just about the time the metallurgical impurities issue was identified and solved. By the time Lionel resumed electric trains production...and injection molded zinc parts thereof...in the early 40's, the rot problem was becoming a thing of the past.
Also consider that Lionel notably participated in war production of some military products. I'm not familiar with how much of that involved the use of their zinc molding/casting process, but I can assure you that the rot problem...and its metallurgical solution...was undoubtedly a closely watched process requirement once identified!
Well, A.C. Gilbert's S-gauge trains didn't begin until after WWII...and continued for about another 20 years until Gilbert declared bankruptcy in 1967. So, by the time Gilbert was employing injection molding/casting of zinc in those new sized trains the rot problem was pretty much passe. Which is why we might not hear much about the rot problem being a part of that 20-year run, probably? Perhaps?
I think this issue re-raised its ugly head once we yielded production to overseas manufacturers, large and small. And I also have no idea how much more costly (complicated) the preparation of an impurities-free ingot of castable zinc is in comparison to other products the same source may be making.
Unless you're as old a phart as I, you may not recall how lowly Japanese product quality was considered following the war. It took a while for them to learn what the U.S. had identified before the war in areas such as metallurgy and get it employed in consumer products going forward. But learn it they did...and a whole lot more!...as they eventually became a paradigm of quality in the last quarter of the last century.
Maybe China will clean up its zinc rot issues someday. Who knows? Sourcing and adherence to best standards are not typically participatory from this side of the pond. They call shots. From even the ruling top.
BTW, American Flyer under Mr. W. O. Coleman (pre-1939) made O gauge trains...and I believe employed zinc casting. Can't say I've heard of many rot problems from their pre-war O gauge production, though. Anyone testify??
FWIW...always.
KD
@harmonyards posted:I’d like to see what the cost would be for curiosities sake what it would take for 3 rail captured axle locomotives to be cast entirely of brass, …..or cast brass frame, and sheet brass boiler, or brass trucks for diesels. …..Scott obviously does it in superior scale fidelity already, but his frames for obvious reasons are more prototypical than that of say MTH, or Lionel, …..I’d love to know if the cost difference between pig pot metal, ( what we have now ) and cast brass is that gravely apart.., ……even on one component like say, the drive block with wheels for a Lionel or MTH scale steam locomotive.
Pat
I would too. I have several train items cast in brass, particularly some illicitly made from an existing manufacturer’s plastic shells (to fit on that manufacturer’s chassis) in the 1970s. (So, they are like lost-wax brass castings that kind of infringed on the manufacturer’s intellectual property.)
They held the N scale detail well and have stood up well over time. Here’s one sample.
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I don’t think I’ve ever seen a posting where someone says “Gee, I’m really excited about that product illustrated in the new catalog! But I can’t find any statement by the manufacturer saying that they are going to invest in documented process quality control for the materials they are using in their metal castings. And this price looks too darned low. I think they might be cutting corners on product assurance. I love the subject, but don’t think I’ll take the risk on buying this thing. The trucks might fall apart after the warranty expires. If I could be charged a higher price, I would feel better knowing that they are probably using the money to ensure their subcontractors are building things right.”
@Jim R. posted:Uh, the zinc pest involves couplers, trucks and frames. There have been very few instances of body castings with zinc pest. So you are offering no solution whatsoever.
If that were only true...and in case you missed it, I was joking.
@Bill DeBrooke posted:If that were only true...and in case you missed it, I was joking.
It is. Name all of the modern era locomotives bodies with confirmed zinc pest. Not the outgassing examples that some people mistook for zinc pest.
@Jim R. posted:It is. Name all of the modern era locomotives bodies with confirmed zinc pest. Not the outgassing examples that some people mistook for zinc pest.
I’ve seen MTH Railking steam locomotives with body shells/frames/drive wheels that have had catastrophic zinc pest failures. Can’t recall specific models but I know they were PS1 and I believe all were streamlined locomotives.
I also recall that a run of Lionel C&O scale berks with TMCC are known to have boiler shells afflicted by zinc pest.
Trains made by Paya (Spain) in the 80s are generally known to have zinc pest in nearly every part, including the bodies.
K-line’s die-cast rolling stock also has imtermittent cases of the bodies disintegrating.
It has also plagued die cast cars as well.
It is much more common with trucks, couplers, and detail parts but shells and frames are not exempt.
The reality is that responsibility falls on the importer (American model train company). Most Chinese manufacturing companies have the capability to produce product to any specification that is asked of them, including cast products free of impurities and properly alloyed. Sometimes extra cost is involved to purchase better quality materials which honestly is not significantly higher, especially in China. The key to getting good product out of China is to be clear up front what your requirements are, have resources in place (both in US and China) to inspect/test/verify that product is in accordance with requirements, and be prepared to hold a vendor accountable if requirements are not met. Thousands of American companies import products from China, some do it well and others not so much. It takes work, knowledge, resources, and dedication to do it right.
I think many O gauge model train makers don’t care enough to put proper controls in place and honestly, they don’t really have much financial incentive to do so. People keep buying their product so why take on the extra cost burden of oversight to make sure the models last more than 10 years? In terms of overall percentages, the number of products with zinc pest is relatively small when compared to the total number of all train products made. The issue becomes heightened among collectors because it usually comes up with certain products in very high percentages: ala Weaver troop sleepers or the trucks on Lionel SP Shasta Daylight cars. The infection rate is pretty close to 100% on those products. There are plenty of other products where its never been observed. Its the luck of the draw with a bad batch of material that gets used.
OK OK a better solution.
All of US stop buying any trains until all manufacturers agree to provide 100% return warranty for Zinc Rot!
that's fair.
need more than 4 likes to accomplish this!!
All of US stop buying any trains until all manufacturers agree to provide 100% return warranty for Zinc Rot!
It's good to have dreams. 
@Ryan Selvius posted:I’ve seen MTH Railking steam locomotives with body shells/frames/drive wheels that have had catastrophic zinc pest failures. Can’t recall specific models but I know they were PS1 and I believe all were streamlined locomotives.
I also recall that a run of Lionel C&O scale berks with TMCC are known to have boiler shells afflicted by zinc pest.
Trains made by Paya (Spain) in the 80s are generally known to have zinc pest in nearly every part, including the bodies.
K-line’s die-cast rolling stock also has imtermittent cases of the bodies disintegrating.
It has also plagued die cast cars as well.
It is much more common with trucks, couplers, and detail parts but shells and frames are not exempt.
The reality is that responsibility falls on the importer (American model train company). Most Chinese manufacturing companies have the capability to produce product to any specification that is asked of them, including cast products free of impurities and properly alloyed. Sometimes extra cost is involved to purchase better quality materials which honestly is not significantly higher, especially in China. The key to getting good product out of China is to be clear up front what your requirements are, have resources in place (both in US and China) to inspect/test/verify that product is in accordance with requirements, and be prepared to hold a vendor accountable if requirements are not met. Thousands of American companies import products from China, some do it well and others not so much. It takes work, knowledge, resources, and dedication to do it right.
I think many O gauge model train makers don’t care enough to put proper controls in place and honestly, they don’t really have much financial incentive to do so. People keep buying their product so why take on the extra cost burden of oversight to make sure the models last more than 10 years? In terms of overall percentages, the number of products with zinc pest is relatively small when compared to the total number of all train products made. The issue becomes heightened among collectors because it usually comes up with certain products in very high percentages: ala Weaver troop sleepers or the trucks on Lionel SP Shasta Daylight cars. The infection rate is pretty close to 100% on those products. There are plenty of other products where its never been observed. Its the luck of the draw with a bad batch of material that gets used.
Some time ago, the forum had a thread seeking specific examples of zinc pest. No confirmed examples involved modern Chinese-made shells. There were some who claimed zinc pest was affecting their locomotive shells, because they were seeing bubbles form. But what they saw were examples of outgassing, a flaw that affects the paint but is not a structural integrity problem that leads to the shell crumbling.
This third-hand claim habit often proves inaccurate. So again, I say cite specific examples of Chinese-produced bodies disintegrating from zinc pest. While I wouldn’t be surprised to find one or two examples, I think you’ll find the problem is extremely rare for shells. Frames, yes, not shells.
@Jim R. posted:Some time ago, the forum had a thread seeking specific examples of zinc pest. No confirmed examples involved modern Chinese-made shells. There were some who claimed zinc pest was affecting their locomotive shells, because they were seeing bubbles form. But what they saw were examples of outgassing, a flaw that affects the paint but is not a structural integrity problem that leads to the shell crumbling.
This third-hand claim habit often proves inaccurate. So again, I say cite specific examples of Chinese-produced bodies disintegrating from zinc pest. While I wouldn’t be surprised to find one or two examples, I think you’ll find the problem is extremely rare for shells. Frames, yes, not shells.
Jim here’s one for ya,…..Lionel’s C&O Berkshire, …..only the C&O was affected, NKP Berks ok, ….this one is crumbling as I’m taking pictures,…..😱
Pat 
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@harmonyards posted:Jim here’s one for ya,…..Lionel’s C&O Berkshire, …..only the C&O was affected, NKP Berks ok, ….this one is crumbling as I’m taking pictures,…..😱
Pat
YIKES!!!!!!
Another topic which won't die. I posted this several years ago. About twenty years ago I met a man at a Christmas or New Year Party,can't remember which, who told me he was a Metallurgist. Once I knew that you can guess what my next question was. I explained to him the problem with zinc rot and asked if there was a solution to the problem. Jokingly he said Keep it in a vacuum so air/O2 and water cannot get to the surface of the casting. However there is a partial solution in the manufacturing process. Chemically Pure zinc cost several times what common pig zinc does. So it is not an option in many cases. Also, zinc and lead ore are often found together in nature. So keeping both metals CP is nearly impossible there is another solution. The greatest amount of lead can be removed from the pot by a bottom tap ladle however getting out the last 3~5% is time consuming and costly. There is a solution, Cook the zinc longer,with stirring, so that the impurities are thoroughly diffused within the molten zinc. Once you remove stratified layers of lead, by cooking and mixing, zinc castings with diffused lead molecules are much more stable. Once we observe rot within our zinc castings a make do move is to coat the casting with the water thin CA available at hobby stores. That will greatly prolong the life of the casting by keeping water and oxygen away from zinc/lead boundary. The CA is hygroscopic and not only seals the joint it binds up with water molecules already there and seals out oxygen as well slowing electrolysis. j
The problem with gluing anything that has degradation John, is the fragility that comes with it now that the strength has been compromised…….and like the case of the above boiler shell, it’s now a jigsaw puzzle with a couple of pieces gone …..sadly, all these remedies, red paint, gold paint, vinegar, super glue, JB Weld, ….the list goes on & on, ……these are just bandaids for the inevitable……
Pat
I've seen people, including me, try to rescue a zinc rotted piece by using CA and/or JB-Weld, but the process of rotting just marches on. For one thing, dried CA is very brittle, and I suspect any movement within the piece will quickly render the air tight seal not so air tight.
@harmonyards posted:The problem with gluing anything that has degradation John, is the fragility that comes with it now that the strength has been compromised…….and like the case of the above boiler shell, it’s now a jigsaw puzzle with a couple of pieces gone …..sadly, all these remedies, red paint, gold paint, vinegar, super glue, JB Weld, ….the list goes on & on, ……these are just bandaids for the inevitable……
Pat
Pat, I don't claim it is a ultimate solution but it is a better solution than doing nothing. It SLOWS the process and will give us time for Pat's line of replacement parts to hit the market. I'll be the first in line. I have more than a couple side frames that have been held together with CA and JB weld for years. They don't need much strength and CA provides just enough. The sooner you spot the rot the better the results will be. Parts are not available so would you rather throw the locomotive out than have a less than perfect repair? Most of us occasionally have to settle for less than perfection. j
@harmonyards posted:The problem with gluing anything that has degradation John, is the fragility that comes with it now that the strength has been compromised…….and like the case of the above boiler shell, it’s now a jigsaw puzzle with a couple of pieces gone …..sadly, all these remedies, red paint, gold paint, vinegar, super glue, JB Weld, ….the list goes on & on, ……these are just bandaids for the inevitable……
Pat
These are some of the truest words stated so far on this subject! I also have a metallurgical degree and you cannot stop this type of process that is occurring within the very grains of the material.
On another thread I stated that typically I try to purchase brass engines simply to avoid this issue. However, the challenge persists when we purchase diecast cars.
No enthusiast within this hobby can claim to be 100% immune to the Zinc Rot problem, as it is prevalent in many, if not all, of our diecast models. It's only a matter of time before we encounter its unwelcome presence. The severity of contamination determines how soon this issue manifests itself.
For the sake of argument I reached to AI to see what it had to say on the subject. The following is its response to my question.
"You are correct that zinc rot, also known as "zinc pest" or "zinc pest disease," is a type of corrosion that affects zinc-containing alloys, and excessive lead content in the alloy is one of the factors that can contribute to its development. This form of corrosion often occurs due to impurities or specific alloy compositions.
While a coating or sealant may help protect the surface from external factors, it may not directly address the internal corrosion within the material caused by impurities like excessive lead. Once zinc rot has set in due to internal factors, it becomes more challenging to reverse the corrosion process.
The suggested methods like surface treatment, cathodic protection, and electrochemical techniques primarily focus on surface protection and might not effectively address the root cause of zinc rot if it's related to the alloy composition. In cases of severe internal corrosion, restoration or replacement of the affected parts might be more practical solutions."
I also hold a degree in metallurgy, …..and there’s just no way to stop it. Yes, it’s most due to a lead contaminated ingot, and the lead is strung all through the casting ……what’s happening is the lead outgasses, separates from the zinc, and then corrodes once the lead is exposed to atmosphere….the lead crumbles, and beings it’s stringy all through the casting, the house of cards comes down. Think of it like this: you build a brick wall of 100 bricks, but 25 bricks were paper machete…..but you have no clue which 25 bricks are paper, or where they’re at in the wall,…..so if the paper bricks are scattered through out,…..down comes the wall once the paper bricks decay out …..
Pat
What would be so hard making sure no lead was in the mix to start with?
No metallurgical degree here, and I believe there’s no way to prevent it from progressing once it starts. No argument there.
However, if there is no easy way to guarantee the purity of the zinc, is there a way to treat the zinc ingots, or maybe the final casting, before it’s painted?
If so, maybe manufacturers could request this be done to the metal if QC is too costly or has diminishing returns.
@Jim R. posted:Some time ago, the forum had a thread seeking specific examples of zinc pest. No confirmed examples involved modern Chinese-made shells. There were some who claimed zinc pest was affecting their locomotive shells, because they were seeing bubbles form. But what they saw were examples of outgassing, a flaw that affects the paint but is not a structural integrity problem that leads to the shell crumbling.
This third-hand claim habit often proves inaccurate. So again, I say cite specific examples of Chinese-produced bodies disintegrating from zinc pest. While I wouldn’t be surprised to find one or two examples, I think you’ll find the problem is extremely rare for shells. Frames, yes, not shells.
Have you ever tired to buy a used MTH Premier PRR P5a boxcab?
Alloy content of ingots would be managed with mill certs. Each ingot will invariably have a cert stating the elemental content and percentages. These ingots will have different grades and values depending on their content and purity. Cheap ingots would be made from recycled melt and content can run the gamut. Higher grade ingots would be made from virgin ore. Recycled material good be purified at the mill with additional processing but this does add cost.
The material that gets used for casting at a model train factory will depend on what raw material requirements are specified and how well the supply chain manages this. Also competent buyers and quality inspectors to check mill certs to verify the alloy is good.
@Ryan Selvius posted:Alloy content of ingots would be managed with mill certs. Each ingot will invariably have a cert stating the elemental content and percentages. These ingots will have different grades and values depending on their content and purity. Cheap ingots would be made from recycled melt and content can run the gamut. Higher grade ingots would be made from virgin ore. Recycled material good be purified at the mill with additional processing but this does add cost.
The material that gets used for casting at a model train factory will depend on what raw material requirements are specified and how well the supply chain manages this. Also competent buyers and quality inspectors to check mill certs to verify the alloy is good.
Automotive parts, sure, there’s a cert for the ingots, as the vendor has to stand behind the production run. So they’re going to look for the better quality raw materials.
Toys, & or models, I seriously doubt there’s a certification for the “ingots” used,…..I use that term loosely, as overseas, it’s whatever the 2nd, or even the 3rd or 4th vendor down the line can find dirt cheap,……
Pat
@rplst8 posted:No metallurgical degree here, and I believe there’s no way to prevent it from progressing once it starts. No argument there.
However, if there is no easy way to guarantee the purity of the zinc, is there a way to treat the zinc ingots, or maybe the final casting, before it’s painted?
If so, maybe manufacturers could request this be done to the metal if QC is too costly or has diminishing returns.
Refluxing was developed in the 30’s ……it’s supposed to make zinc 99.9% pure, by vapor removing lead & cadmium……More than likely this is NOT happening overseas to make toys …..
Pat
@rplst8 posted:However, if there is no easy way to guarantee the purity of the zinc, .........
Assaying metal purity is pretty trivial and you can go as far as parts per billion is you want to test by ICP-MS, and that's actually a relatively cheap elemental analysis.
...........is there a way to treat the zinc ingots, or maybe the final casting, before it’s painted?
If so, maybe manufacturers could request this be done to the metal if QC is too costly or has diminishing returns.
Once used it's done. No remediation or prevention will stop the deterioration.
@mwb posted:Assaying metal purity is pretty trivial and you can go as far as parts per billion is you want to test by ICP-MS, and that's actually a relatively cheap elemental analysis.
Once used it's done. No remediation or prevention will stop the deterioration.
Once used it's done. No remediation or prevention will stop the deterioration.
^^^^^^^ that’s the point some of these guys can’t grasp^^^^^^^^^^^
sick a fork in it, she’s done. Use a dust pan and brush to sweep up the tears of your shattered ( literally) dreams …..
Pat
@Ryan Selvius posted:Alloy content of ingots would be managed with mill certs. Each ingot will invariably have a cert stating the elemental content and percentages. These ingots will have different grades and values depending on their content and purity. Cheap ingots would be made from recycled melt and content can run the gamut. Higher grade ingots would be made from virgin ore. Recycled material good be purified at the mill with additional processing but this does add cost.
The material that gets used for casting at a model train factory will depend on what raw material requirements are specified and how well the supply chain manages this. Also competent buyers and quality inspectors to check mill certs to verify the alloy is good.
@harmonyards posted:Refluxing was developed in the 30’s ……it’s supposed to make zinc 99.9% pure, by vapor removing lead & cadmium……More than likely this is NOT happening overseas to make toys …..
Pat
What practical use does lead/cadmium contaminated zinc even have? Metal is usually desirable for its strength or for its ductility.
Rotted zinc is neither.
One would think the purity of the metal in order to resist deterioration, beyond say 100-150 years, would be the minimum for any company in that industry. In saying that I’m assuming there is a correlation between purity and the age at which rot will rear its head.
@mwb posted:Once used it's done. No remediation or prevention will stop the deterioration.
@harmonyards posted:^^^^^^^ that’s the point some of these guys can’t grasp^^^^^^^^^^^
sick a fork in it, she’s done. Use a dust pan and brush to sweep up the tears of your shattered ( literally) dreams …..
Pat, I get it.
So literally its fate is sealed when the ingot is cast.
It makes the acceptance of the problem by manufacturers, and lack of industry regulation all the more puzzling. And I double down on my question for uses of contaminated zinc!
The whole thing just sounds like a scam at that point.
@rplst8 posted:Pat, I get it.
So literally its fate is sealed when the ingot is cast.
It makes the acceptance of the problem by manufacturers, and lack of industry regulation all the more puzzling. And I double down on my question for uses of contaminated zinc!
The whole thing just sounds like a scam at that point.
I wouldn’t call it a scam. …..it’d be a scam if the model maker said 100% pure zinc with zero impurities…..more, it’s as some of have said on here a bunch of times ….low bid vendor, low bid quality, ….the chain is vast, …maybe more so than some think, …perhaps you know Ryan, but the links go like this, …US Company hires overseas factory. That overseas factory farms out some production to smaller factories, even 1-2 man operations basically in a small garage type setting, ….so vendor, on top of vendor, ….then comes the bid for contract,……cheapest bidder wins, ….if you think the bottom dollar vendor ( lowest on the totem poll ) is going to refine his raw materials, you’re nuts …..😉
Pat
@romiller49 posted:This is Ogauge but has anybody experienced zinc rot with Gilbert American Flyer trains?
I have seen the Gilbert American Flyer die cast chassis on passenger cars that have dis-integrated.
Ray
@harmonyards posted:I wouldn’t call it a scam. …..it’d be a scam if the model maker said 100% pure zinc with zero impurities…..more, it’s as some of have said on here a bunch of times ….low bid vendor, low bid quality, ….the chain is vast, …maybe more so than some think, …perhaps you know Ryan, but the links go like this, …US Company hires overseas factory. That overseas factory farms out some production to smaller factories, even 1-2 man operations basically in a small garage type setting, ….so vendor, on top of vendor, ….then comes the bid for contract,……cheapest bidder wins, ….if you think the bottom dollar vendor ( lowest on the totem poll ) is going to refine his raw materials, you’re nuts …..😉
Pat
I agree with what you’re say Pat. But wouldn’t you think there’d be some ownership somewhere?
I wouldn’t be happy if my $300 engine suffered from zinc rot. But I’d be absolutely crazy if my $2,000 engine started disintegrating from it.
I think that, as consumers we’ve all been taught that expensive items implies a certain amount of quality and reliability. I’m guessing this is not the case with really expensive (defined as $1,000 or more) engines.
@Junior posted:I agree with what you’re say Pat. But wouldn’t you think there’d be some ownership somewhere?
I wouldn’t be happy if my $300 engine suffered from zinc rot. But I’d be absolutely crazy if my $2,000 engine started disintegrating from it.
I think that, as consumers we’ve all been taught that expensive items implies a certain amount of quality and reliability. I’m guessing this is not the case with really expensive (defined as $1,000 or more) engines.
Sadly, by the time that zinc rot starts to appear, any warranty is long since expired and you're on your own. Hopefully, the rise and precision of 3D printing will rescue some of the more egregious examples of this plague. We're moving in the direction of that with the JLC GG1, hopefully we'll have 3D printed sideframes soon.
@harmonyards posted:I wouldn’t call it a scam. …..it’d be a scam if the model maker said 100% pure zinc with zero impurities…..more, it’s as some of have said on here a bunch of times ….low bid vendor, low bid quality, ….the chain is vast, …maybe more so than some think, …perhaps you know Ryan, but the links go like this, …US Company hires overseas factory. That overseas factory farms out some production to smaller factories, even 1-2 man operations basically in a small garage type setting, ….so vendor, on top of vendor, ….then comes the bid for contract,……cheapest bidder wins, ….if you think the bottom dollar vendor ( lowest on the totem poll ) is going to refine his raw materials, you’re nuts …..😉
Pat
That’s fairly accurate although I think the notion of “garage size small fab shops” needs to be forgotten. I can’t speak for the hobby industry specifically so my comments are more of a broad commentary on manufacturing in China. Americans would like to think Chinese manufacturing is low tech, low quality, done in poor facilities with poor equipment by people who don’t know what they are doing. This couldn’t be further from the truth. Chinese manufacturing plants are built on a massive scale with a lot of modern equipment. Safety is usually an afterthought. The plants are usually focused on one type of operation, for instance die casting or injection molded plastic. There could possibly be two vendors used for die casting but its just as likely it is all done in one facility. The only logic to me that supports 2 vendors would be that an O gauge locomotive has a mix of large and small die cast parts. The boilers and tender shells will have a very large die requiring a much bigger press. But like I said, these facilities are going to have a lot of machines of a variety of sizes so as long as there’s capacity, a vendor will want to keep everything in house rather than sub out from a third party.
My current job deals with a lot of injection molded product. We buy molds from Chinese tooling shops and the molds get sampled multiple times during mold development before they are shipped over here. All of this work is normally done within one factory which involves a massive variety of equipment. Occassionally they work with partner shops when there is a big influx of work beyond the normal operating capacity in order to maintain the schedule and quick turnaround times.
So….I was thinking about what could be a solution to this whole zinc rot situation.
It seems to me that the problem is 3-fold:
1. Lionel, MTH and others are unable to administer and enforce some kind of Quality Control for cast parts.
2. Zinc rot typically occurs way after the engine/rail car is out of warranty.
3. Because zinc rot typically occurs so late in life of the item(s), replacement parts could be difficult to get; if at all.
It is my understanding that like the “real thing”, model engines, etc. are created from blueprints. I’m assuming that the components from these blueprints are parsed out to different suppliers/manufacturers for parts creation. I don’t know this for a fact, but I would think that these part’s blueprint images could be translated in a 3D printable file.
With the proliferation and affordability of 3D printers nowadays, Lionel would post the item components 3D printable file in an online library managed by them..
Item owners (i.e. consumers) could then purchase the printable part file from Lionel for a nominal fee and print the replacement part themselves.
This would relieve Lionel’s et. al. need to keep actual replacement parts in stock; which could be subject to zinc rot failure like the original.
The printed part would be made of resin; which would not be subject to any kind of rot.
Whadayathink?
@Ryan Selvius posted:That’s fairly accurate although I think the notion of “garage size small fab shops” needs to be forgotten.
I've personally talked to folks that have products fabricated in China and there are many small shops doing stuff like diecast parts, they don't do all of the work in those large modern factories. Manufacturing in China is not that different than here in the US, lots of different suppliers contribute to any reasonably complicated end product.
@Ryan Selvius posted:That’s fairly accurate although I think the notion of “garage size small fab shops” needs to be forgotten. I can’t speak for the hobby industry specifically so my comments are more of a broad commentary on manufacturing in China. Americans would like to think Chinese manufacturing is low tech, low quality, done in poor facilities with poor equipment by people who don’t know what they are doing. This couldn’t be further from the truth. Chinese manufacturing plants are built on a massive scale with a lot of modern equipment. Safety is usually an afterthought. The plants are usually focused on one type of operation, for instance die casting or injection molded plastic. There could possibly be two vendors used for die casting but its just as likely it is all done in one facility. The only logic to me that supports 2 vendors would be that an O gauge locomotive has a mix of large and small die cast parts. The boilers and tender shells will have a very large die requiring a much bigger press. But like I said, these facilities are going to have a lot of machines of a variety of sizes so as long as there’s capacity, a vendor will want to keep everything in house rather than sub out from a third party.
My current job deals with a lot of injection molded product. We buy molds from Chinese tooling shops and the molds get sampled multiple times during mold development before they are shipped over here. All of this work is normally done within one factory which involves a massive variety of equipment. Occassionally they work with partner shops when there is a big influx of work beyond the normal operating capacity in order to maintain the schedule and quick turnaround times.
You can’t discard the notion of small one-two man operations in China. I’ve seen them, & dealt with them myself, even in the automotive world, ……there’s miles and miles of smaller strip mall type shops that do small batch work for the larger factories, …..same as here in the states, but, without regulations, & as you mentioned, any kind of safety standards, ………..it’s not all done in one “super factory “ ……one such aftermarket production company we dealt with made a throttle body for the aftermarket, the main aluminum components were manufactured at the “ big place” but the shafts & throttle blades were made at one of these “ strip mall” type places …..big vendor farmed that job out to the little vendor ……parts came back to the big vendor for final “ clean up machining “ and assembly…..
Pat
