ZW-C Problem

Did you test this with a load on the tracks?  Put a lighted caboose or passenger car on the track and try measuring the voltage again.

Well, I am as far from an expert as you can get. But I am a long time ham radio guy and have worked on vintage ham gear for 25 years. It's a very different animal from what we are dealing with today on a layout with modern electronics. So whatever experience I have may be worth exactly what you are paying for it--nothing! But here is what I would say about your readings: Fine, good, no problem. Your readings are well within the tolerances of the components and gear you are using. Please proceed to run your trains and enjoy them. 

The subtext for me is that electronics is not as exact a science as the engineers would have us believe. Just because your meters will indicate down to 1/10th of a volt doesn't mean that makes any difference to the operation of your equipment. It RARELY does. I know nothing about modern digital electronics and the very idea that an oscilloscope will show waveforms up into the Ghz region astounds me. But my daily hobby work has no use for that level of exactitude, nor indeed do I have any signals in the Ghz region to measure! 

So my free advice (again disclaimer, worth every penny you are payng....) is to ignore your voltage variations and go ahead with what you were doing. All will almost certainly be well.

Don Merz

A triac controller such as the zw-c has to ha ha a small load for a reading. A small bulb will do. As to the channel A reading at full throttle, not sure why. I would also do a recalibrate as per the manua, add loads, and measure again.

Two thoughts. If your command base is powered on, the ZW-C may still see it. I had this problem over the weekend. I didn't even have the ZW-C connected to the track or the Command Base, however I could not get the handles to put power to the outputs. I had programmed the ZW-C a long while back, and it saw the TMCC signal and went into command mode on me. I unplugged the Command Base and the ZW-C worked fine. 

Second, the handles on the ZW-C can slip. Is it possible your D handle slipped and is no longer turning the pot internally back to zero?

Just a few thoughts here. This controller has some complexities that make it more difficult to troubleshoot.

George

No change when I put a Golden Gate Depot sleeper on the track. Same values measured as before, both at the terminals and at the rails. The current bleed was enough that the sleeper was lit even with the handles in the off position.

Have you performed the zero calibration? Page 14 of the manual.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...ents/72-2982-250.pdf

”Electronic reversing units will not change direction properly unless the track voltage drops to zero volts. If the ZW Controller’s track voltage does not drop to zero when the handle is at zero, the ZW Controller must be re-calibrated. All four channels can be calibrated by moving each handle to zero, and holding the program button in while the power is turned on. The red light will flash five times to indicate calibration is complete. This must be done with the Command Base disconnected. Calibration is done at the factory and should not be required with normal use.”

Yeah, I did, twice before posting my first post. It didn't change anything. Although the manual is slightly incorrect: you have have to depress the button before turning the power on.

As far as not getting full power, it is possible the gears inside the unit are slipping or not fully engaging, therefore not rolling up to full or down to zero when you move the handles.

Check this video from Mike Reagan.    

ZW-C video

You need to zero it out. Mike Reagan did a video on this awhile back. 

Gentlemen,

   All your advise is right on the money, most people know I am a big ZW guy, old or new.  The one exception is the ZW-C way to many problems with them, and they use Bricks.  IMO Lionel should fix every one of these ZW-C's under life time Warranty as Lionel does with our Legacy package.

Lionel could not give me a ZW-C.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Gentlemen,

   All your advise is right on the money, most people know I am a big ZW guy, old or new.  The one exception is the ZW-C way to many problems with them, and they use Bricks.  IMO Lionel should fix every one of these ZW-C's under life time Warranty as Lionel does with our Legacy package.

Lionel could not give me a ZW-C.

PCRR/Dave

Every one is entitled to an opinion but I have been using mine for about 17 years with out ANY issues!  I enjoy the large meters that Lionel sold to go with it, the fact that no fans are required to cool it, the super quick breakers and the postwar styling.  These kind of comments are thrown out all over the forum but I know quite a few fellow hobbyist who really enjoy theirs.  I understand the frustrations of those trying to fix issues with these but this type of post does not help them.

I hope SLUGGER is successful  in his efforts to resolve the issues.

Happy railroading,

Don

I love my ZW-C, best transformer I have ever used, but I'll admit I haven't used many.  I'd open it and check the pots, could be they have slipped.  Once you have them able to all get to mostly zero, then try the recalibration.

Don,

   I am glad you got one that has given you no problems, Congrats!  

PCRR/Dave

DGJONES posted:

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Gentlemen,

   All your advise is right on the money, most people know I am a big ZW guy, old or new.  The one exception is the ZW-C way to many problems with them, and they use Bricks.  IMO Lionel should fix every one of these ZW-C's under life time Warranty as Lionel does with our Legacy package.

Lionel could not give me a ZW-C.

PCRR/Dave

Every one is entitled to an opinion but I have been using mine for about 17 years with out ANY issues!  I enjoy the large meters that Lionel sold to go with it, the fact that no fans are required to cool it, the super quick breakers and the postwar styling.  These kind of comments are thrown out all over the forum but I know quite a few fellow hobbyist who really enjoy theirs.  I understand the frustrations of those trying to fix issues with these but this type of post does not help them.

I hope SLUGGER is successful  in his efforts to resolve the issues.

Happy railroading,

Don

Don,  my experience mirrors yours.  Almost 15 years with my ZW-C.    I use 4 180PH with it and it this the heart of my power for my large layout running Legacy/TMCC and DCS.  It simply just works.

I had to adjust the gears once on the D handle after 10 years.   Just like I've had to get into my original PW ZW275 every several years to clean rollers, etc.

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Don,

   I am glad you got one that has given you no problems, Congrats!  

PCRR/Dave

Dave,

Why do you insist on poking us ZW-C users? I know you love your Z4000's, but we are happy with our ZW-C's. Mine works fine. If anything goes wrong, they are pretty easy to fix, and I love the fact that I can connect 4 PH180's to it. The PH180 is a fantastic part of the unit!

George

George,

I am not insisting on anything, I simply do not like Bricks or any Transformer that uses them.  Further it seems by the ZW-C posts here on the OGR that they have more than their share of problems, compared to the old ZW or the new ZW-L.  

If you happen to have a ZW-C that has given you no problems great, Upgrade to a ZW-L as soon as you can.

PCRR/Dave

I don't have any problems with my ZW-C. I have no reason to upgrade to a ZW-L. I don't need the very heavy, bulky unit with analog meters and a large fan. My ZW-C does everything I need and I am very happy with it.  It also provides much more power and flexibility than a Z4000. I may just go out an get another ZW-C. 

Also, just to poke back at you, I am going to make sure my ZW-C is prominently positioned in all of my tinplate photos going forward.

George

George,

   That is fantastic, I like man who knows what he wants and sticks with it!  Looking forward to the pictures with the ZW-C prominently displayed.  Better hope it does not break down during the next year, or I will have to harass you but good.

I have to give you this you expended a lot less money on the ZW-C than the guys purchasing the new ZW-L.  I still want one however, looks to be some good engineering!

All the best,

PCRR/Dave

To steer this thread back on topic, I popped the lid off the unit and visually inspected the gears. All four seemed to properly be engaging and rotating the same amount, although I'm not really sure what the correct amount should be or how to tell where the 0 / max positions should be.

Glad to have stumbled upon this informative thread as I just received  one for FREE today. Just the controller unit itself but I do have a single PH180 and plan to add another soon.  I was told that "the output quit" or similar. Am curious to learn more about it and this thread shows great promise!   Thanks.

We have one at the club that will be used for two of the upper loops. It has 2 bricks but I don't remember which ones they were. Harold picked it up at York last trip up and it's just sitting there near the control panel...

A further test in command mode with Legacy. I was only able to get the ZW-C to receive commands from the command base by running a wire from the base to the common posts on the ZW. In command mode, B and C (TR 2 and 3) behave as expected. Channel A / TR 1 likewise behaves as expected (voltage is initially low then dials up to ~12.5V, same maximum as in conventional). Channel D (TR 4) remains fixed at ~18V regardless of the position of the handle or whatever commands are sent via the remote. 

Tried swapping the 180 Watt bricks? Pretty unlikely, but...

Slugger posted:

A further test in command mode with Legacy. I was only able to get the ZW-C to receive commands from the command base by running a wire from the base to the common posts on the ZW. 

Hi Stephen,

The original ZW-C manual does say to attach the Command Base to the ZW. (Although later in the manual it says connect to either the "U" on ZW or "U" on track).

I've always had my command based connected to the ZW-C first.

Do you still have the jumper plugs for the power inputs on the back?  If so, try plugging B C and D, and just using A with one power house.  See what A reads then.

I don't have a ZW-C , but plenty of experience with triac delivery from animatronics work. It does sound like a control board issue in the ZW-C vs the bricks. Swapping bricks around wouldn't necessarily move the issue, but if it does, blame the bricks.

After some more testing with a Legacy engine, I think it is a control board within the ZW: In both conventional and Legacy, my Legacy test engine starts up immediately when the PowerHouse is turned on (lights and sound system start up) and the bell immediately begins. The engine won't run, failing to respond to Legacy commands or through the ZW handles.

So: Does Lionel still fix these (are the parts still available even)? Any forum members? Or am I out of luck with this?

The board is currently showing unavailable at Lionel.

Here's part number :  691ZWPC100      

SlUGGER- I have this system and LOVE IT. Many good guys on here just have their own preferences. NOW - First of all, disconnect from layout for testing purposes. Command mode -(NOT in super ZW mode) All 4 bricks plugged in to the ZW. Legacy  base connected to common on the ZW-All handles forward-Power on to Base and ZW- Channels B and C should immediately  come up to 18 V. You should have to manually  dial up channels A and D to 18 volts with the Legacy remote. Verify all output voltages on A-B-C- and D with a VOM. If you are not getting these voltage readings and you have preformed the "potentiometer re-set" AND made sure that the out put voltage on the bricks is in fact 18V, then  you have an internal  issue. However you are not out of luck by any stretch. Even if parts are not available. Send me an e mail if you can't get anywhere.I can offer a plan B solution. Good luck. Nick

Slugger posted:

After some more testing with a Legacy engine, I think it is a control board within the ZW: In both conventional and Legacy, my Legacy test engine starts up immediately when the PowerHouse is turned on (lights and sound system start up) and the bell immediately begins. The engine won't run, failing to respond to Legacy commands or through the ZW handles.

So: Does Lionel still fix these (are the parts still available even)? Any forum members? Or am I out of luck with this?

 

Which output did you do this test with? To me, the problems described earlier sounded more like potentiometer problems with the A and D handles. They could be misaligned due to previous gear slippage, or they could be bad. Lionel still shows these as available parts. If it is the board, then it sounds more like a component than the processor. The pictures of the board look like there are some capacitors and MOSFETs on it. They appear relatively easy to replace.

Also, have you tried reprogramming it by setting the first ID to zero? This removes all command function from the ZW and makes it fully conventional. You can reprogram it back later on. If it programs, then you don't need a new board, and it is likely salvageable, and someone on this forum, such as Gunrunnerjohn, should be able to fix it.

George

After some more testing with a Legacy engine, I think it is a control board within the ZW: In both conventional and Legacy, my Legacy test engine starts up immediately when the PowerHouse is turned on (lights and sound system start up) and the bell immediately begins. The engine won't run, failing to respond to Legacy commands or through the ZW handles.

So: Does Lionel still fix these (are the parts still available even)? Any forum members? Or am I out of luck with this?

So I recently installed a used ZW-C system with 2 x 180 W power bricks on my layout.  ( 3 months ago ),  I ended up having to tighten down the lock nuts on the potentiometers as mine has the original plastic mounting brackets, then I did  the reset procedure to ensure that all throttles, went to 0 VAC and were in sync....   

I just had these exact symptoms occur with my new Lionel Hybrid Brass ATSF 3222 Legacy Mikado,  ended up emailing back and forth with Dave Olsen at Lionel.    Engine started up with sounds, lights etc, but no response from any Legacy Cab-2 command...

Oddly though, this new ATSF Legacy locomotive worked fine with my prior postwar ZW -  CAB2 Legacy system.   Very shortly  after installing the ZW-C the "won't respond to Legacy commands issue" started....

 After trying a whole bunch of fixes, he suggested I use command 99, which talks to all Legacy locomotives, that worked, although by default the 99 command brings it up in CAB-1 TMCC mode.   

Next he told me to reprogram the engine .... I took the lazy way out first and simply re-numbered the ID to engine 22, which matched the profile I had already programmed into my Legacy controller....   Voila !!!!   engine works just like the day it was delivered from Lionel..  Dave explained that the logic inside the Legacy control in the loco sometimes gets scrambled,  "my word, not his"...  In any event, it turned out not to be a ZW-C problem...  You should try this as it's a very small investment in time...   

Thanks for all the suggestions, gentlemen.

Nick - Yes, in command mode with all handles forward and without being addressed, handle A is at 0.2 V, handles B and C are at 18 V, but handle D is at 18V (and can't be changed from this). Handle A responds as expected with the Cab-2 remote, but only reaches 12 V as the maximum. Each Powerhouse is outputting 18 V, as checked at the Molex connector.

George - I was able to reprogram the ZW-C into conventional mode by assigning it an TR ID of 0, so now handle A comes up at whatever voltage the handle is set on. I retested again with my Legacy engine and it still won't run even in conventional. The Legacy base is off and unplugged from the outlet and it is detached from both the ZW-C and track. I wired my track into handle B (not A) and am trying to control it from B; as soon as I turn on handle B's PowerHouse, the engine's lights come on and its sound system activates, but the handle is in the off position. When I raise handle B, the engine's bell starts dinging and it continues to sit there. If I cycle the handle from off to max repeatedly, the engine appears to be cycling through forward-neutral-reverse-neutral judging by the reverse headlight lighting up, and sometimes the engine will move forward, but the bell continues to ding (occasionally it will randomly turn off/on while moving handle B), but I can't seem to rationally reproduce the behavior and the cab light flickers on/off like track power is being interrupted, even with the handle at full. You'll recall that handle B does not have a bell button, so the observation that it turns on immediately and I can't turn it off has me suspicious that there's something wrong with a board inside. My multimeter reads ~18V at the track when the engine is sitting there dinging its bell.

Stephen,

In conventional mode, I think DC voltage triggers the bell. I'm not sure, but this is what I recall. So, if you have DC voltage on the track, it seems like something might be wrong inside the ZW. However, since you can still program the ZW, it appears the logic chip is working. I recall GGG saying something about a damaged MOS-FET putting out DC voltage. Either way, I would try to get GGG or Gunrunnerjohn to work on the unit. It may be a simple electronic component to replace on the board.

George

just to confirm, in conventional, dc offset does trigger engine whistle/bell , which is determined by positive or negative offset (one ac wave larger that the other)

Fred,  What exactly did you break? 

  This is all very hard to follow unless maybe you have done it before.  It's too many... this that, those, the other, etc. & that makes it hard. 

  Visually hard to read too. A solid block of text.  Double spacing sentences helps if you forgo the paragraph line spacing. ( because it is such wide line spacing it seems too fragmented?) 

For both of you since nobody seems to have a clue...I'll stab at the sky.

Fred , you had to move 100miles and/or onto a carpet?

  Is humdity low, house static prone? Thats never good for electronics, no matter how "bullet proof".  Static a page or two in it's self.

  Are things at both posters homes on the same ac plugs? No plug phasing possibilities, etc?

 Find out if your high tension line is a wye or delta feed, and compare to the old home and Slugger, and if they match, also ask Lionel what the feed is where the systems were developed. 

  Add a AC collar type line filter on each may help if they match but differ from the design studio, but otherwise????  (feedback loops plague some older but complex powersupplies and chips in combo, and alone on occasion..not a fix but a possible cause of wild issues; i.e. step 1. The rest would be up to others to persue. Supply change was cheaper & easier  )

Buy or borrow another cab2 and see if your present remotes will work as long as the charger is busy.   I dont know how two Cab2s would act in the same vicinity?  I also don't know if the charging system is only a chrging system or supports a data delivery for upgrades etc..  But if its stricly a charging system, a " dummy cab2" to occupy the cradle may be your only option left.

I just bought a second ZW-C with two PH-180's on eBay for less than the value of the bricks, including shipping. One bell button is missing, which I can fix and parts are available. The seller said he doesn't know if it works. I will test it and find out if there is any issue. It even came with the jumper plugs, which are almost always missing. I have plenty of PH-180's, so I will probably sell two assuming the ones I get work. I have never found a bad PH-180 though. 

George

Gentlemen,

   I hope all you ZW-C fans continue to love your Transformers, if I happen to be given one, I will pass it on to one of you ZW-C fans here on the OGR.  In fact I will include any CW-80 I happen to be given with it.

George I am glad you were able to pick up your latest ZW-C for less that the actual cost of 2, 180 Bricks.

PCRR/Dave

 Me I will continue to power my Train Room with Z4K's, old ZW's and KW's.  If I am lucky I will pick up a new ZW-L used for reasonable money.

Dave

Please send it to me.

Larry

George S posted:

I just bought a second ZW-C with two PH-180's on eBay for less than the value of the bricks, including shipping. One bell button is missing, which I can fix and parts are available. The seller said he doesn't know if it works. I will test it and find out if there is any issue. It even came with the jumper plugs, which are almost always missing. I have plenty of PH-180's, so I will probably sell two assuming the ones I get work. I have never found a bad PH-180 though. 

George

Got the ZW-C today. The buyer shipped FedEx! Near as I can tell, there is nothing wrong with it except the bell button. I am trying to order the parts on the Lionel website, but it is acting funny. My digital RMS meter tested the full voltage range on each channel. I lit a flashing LED with channel one. I will hook it up to the layout this weekend. 

I just hope PCRR/Dave keeps bad mouthing these so we can all get these great deals!

George

George S posted:

George S posted:

I just bought a second ZW-C with two PH-180's on eBay for less than the value of the bricks, including shipping. One bell button is missing, which I can fix and parts are available. The seller said he doesn't know if it works. I will test it and find out if there is any issue. It even came with the jumper plugs, which are almost always missing. I have plenty of PH-180's, so I will probably sell two assuming the ones I get work. I have never found a bad PH-180 though. 

George

Got the ZW-C today. The buyer shipped FedEx! Near as I can tell, there is nothing wrong with it except the bell button. I am trying to order the parts on the Lionel website, but it is acting funny. My digital RMS meter tested the full voltage range on each channel. I lit a flashing LED with channel one. I will hook it up to the layout this weekend. 

I just hope PCRR/Dave keeps bad mouthing these so we can all get these great deals!

George

So, it occurred to me that I should open the unit up to see exactly what I was ordering parts for. And... I found the bell button and sleeve inside. The bad news was that the bracket for the bell switch was shattered. Someone really wanted to mash that bell button! That part is not replaceable. However, I was able to work a way to support the bell switch using half the broken bracket and a zip tie. It's not pretty inside, but outside it seems to work just fine. The bell button requires very little pressure to actuate. Now, I just need to get it connected to some track to fully test it.

George

Larry Sr,

   If I ever get gifted another of either Transformer you will be 1st on the list to receive it. Mean while I highly recommend you pick up an original ZW to run with, or even a nice Z4K.

PCRR/Dave