ZW Question

Paul,

   If you can post some pictures of the transformers I can probably help you with your questions.  I own a very early ZW and a much later one.

PCRR/Dave

I'll do that, Dave - thanx

Paul,

   In the picture below the older 250 Volt ZW is in the front of the picture below the KW, the newer 275 ZW is close to the Z4K.  Note the difference in the Lionel emblems on the two ZW's, which usually visually identifies these two different ZW transformers right away.  Also notice the original light cover on the older ZW is much more burgandy in color, than the later original orangeish light cover on the later ZW.

PCRR/Dave

Dave - here are the pics of the 2 transformers -

thanx again -

Paul,

   It is my understanding that both of these transformers are really the same, the one with what looks like a rivet is just slightly older, both are 275 transformers.  If you look at the picture in my prior post you will see the older 250 ZW.

PCRR/Dave

thanx Dave - your help is appreciated

The first transformer in Dave's photo is the 250v model which was only made the first year. After that the ZW was changed to 275 volts. As far as your transformers are concerned, I do not that reproduction emblems are adhesive backed and not riveted on. I'm not positive if all original emblems were riveted on or not.

Dave,

What are the posts attached to the regular transformer posts?  Why do you use them?

  -Joe

Joe;

I believe those are banana plug adapters just for convenience.

Perhaps Dave will confirm that.

Rod

The first transformer in Dave's photo is the 250v model which was only made the first year. After that the ZW was changed to 275 volts. As far as your transformers are concerned, I do not that reproduction emblems are adhesive backed and not riveted on. I'm not positive if all original emblems were riveted on or not.

Believe you meant 250 and 275 watts rather than volts.

And the 250W version was made for two years, 1948 and 1949. The rating went to 275W for 1950 (or very late in the 1949 models).

Martin

Rail Reading,

   It's definitely W, sorry for the mix up, and the transformers have been

fit with Female Banana plugs, if you take a look at some of the other threads you can see how I adapted them.  They do work really well, especially with the DCS.

However this was Pauls thread and he was asking about the difference in his ZW's.

Martin is also right the 250 ZW was actually made for 2 years.

PCRR/Dave   

I also hasten to add, I had one of the ZW's with the small emblem, and the nameplate said 275W.  Obviously, there was a time where they made the 275W with the small emblem.  It could also have been a mix-n-match later in it's life, I really can't say.  Oh, and I've had both the small and large emblem models with the emblem just glued on, and I've also had the riveted ones with the large emblem.

Note that the 275W rating is input wattage, not what's actually available at the output terminals.  That would be more along the lines of 220 watts maximum.

Here's another possibility that clouds the issue of age or maybe wattage.  I had purchased PW 275 watt ZW with no emblem on the top but there was a hole there.  The place I had refurbish it for me asked if I would like to pay extra to have an emblem put on top so it would look nicer.  I said yes, and it has no rivet in it.

.....

Dennis

Thank you all for your responses - I believe I have my answer which is "the riveted emblem seems to be a bit older"

. . . or as I implied: if the ZW has refurbished and a new emblem put on, you won't be able to tell that way.  You need another clue.

.....

Dennis

Gunrunnerjohn:

I also hasten to add, I had one of the ZW's with the small emblem, and the nameplate said 275W.  Obviously, there was a time where they made the 275W with the small emblem.  It could also have been a mix-n-match later in it's life, I really can't say.

These were either very late 1949 production, or very early 1950 examples--it's not clear which. There was a transition period with the higher 275W rating, but continuing the small escutcheon on top with the electrical info on the second plate on the back. (I tried to allude to this when I said "The rating went to 275W for 1950 [or very late in the 1949 models]).

They turn up with some frequency, though they're not real common.

Martin

Gee, I had a collector's item and didn't even know it.

The ZW had a bunch of versions and gradual changes both inside and out. From Greenberg books

- ZW 250 with a 2.5" emblem on top and a plate on the back says ZW250. 1948-49.

- ZW 275 with same 2.5" top emblem but the back plate says ZW275. 1950- 195?.

- ZW 275 with 3.5" emblem without rivet no back plate. 195?- 1956

- ZW 275 Type R 3.5" emblem with rivet. Many changes inside. Type R stamped on bottom plate.1957- 1966.

Now who knows if these dates are correct. Not sure when the top emblem changed. The books I have don't say. Also the Type R date of 1957 feels to early to me but that's what my book collection says.

Between the ZW250 and the Type R there were many small changes inside and out. The rivet might have started before the type R but that's what the books say.

Most repro 3.5" top plates are stick on and don't have a hole for a rivet.

The Type R is clearly datable to 1961 by the service manual pages (the date is on some reproductions, though not Greenberg's) and the instruction sheet ZW-251 (dated 1-61). The riveted laminations came long refore that, but not all ZWs with riveted laminations are Type Rs; those had further changes, and the use of 18V pilot lights and short circuit lights indicate the Type R (according to the Service Manual).

The switch from the small escutcheon to the large is pretty generally reported to be from 1949 (250W) to 1950 (275W), so the 275W version with the small escutcheon (and additional back plate) has to fall in the transition period, meaning late 1949 production/model year to very early 1950 production year. There weren't many made (a lot of people don't even know this variation exists) so it couldn't have spanned any great period.

Martin

Kent & Martin,

  You guys pretty well cover the ZW's from the start.

PCRR/Dave

The ZW R model was released in 1957. I know that for a fact. I traded in my Type Z at French's Lionel Train House in Midway, WA. for the first R model in the store. Jack French explaned all the new features to me. He thought the older circuit breaker was better and said the new one was just a cheap way of doing it. The link below has all the facts right.

          http://www.tandem-associates.c...s_zw_transformer.htm

Does it use the 18V 1445 pilot lights?

For Christmas 1958, I received a brand new ZW; it has riveted laminations, but it is not a Model R. Since it came from a high-volume store,  I doubt it had sat around for two years on the shelves. Maybe I'm wrong.

Martin

  This is a 1958 ZW R in the yellow box. Mine has the older box and GE #51 bulbs.

      http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONEL-YELLOW-BOXED-275-WATT-ZW-R-TRANSFORMER-/130849130429?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DMRU-220%252BUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D390541144366%26ps%3D54

What makes this one a "Model R"?

Prior to the Model R, the were gaps in the transformer core, the Model R changed the core design and riveted it together.  You can see the difference in the two pictures below.

That change occurred before the "Model R" as Martin describes:

OK, I recognize the ones I've seen by the ZW-R stamped on the base.  

I thought the riveted lamination was done then.  I know that I've never seen a non-R model with them, but that's probably only 8-10 transformers, hardly a significant sampling I guess.

Lets see if i can confuse this further.  Some zw's  had all white on the handles,  some had yellow, some had red,   What, if any, is the difference between them ?

Lionel Corporation red and green caps are translucent - that transparent red cap and its green counterpart were produced after ZWs went out of production.

MTN,

   Those ZW transformers were purchased by my Grandfather and Father the year they were made, and each is original, including the light caps.  Nothing has been replaced as far as I know, and they are not really translucent, you can not see completely thru the red cap on the old 250.   Burgandy was the original color.

PCRR/Dave

Those look quite original to me.  The "clear" ones are from early production.  I saw plenty in the 60's and 70's on original owner transformers, most if not all were 250's.

Dave - I am aware of the difference between the two emblems. I think this thread really got away from my original question.  It seems as though you answered my question when you said "the one with the rivet is slightly older" - this makes sense.

Also, I checked Doyle's catalogue on Lionel trains for additional info on the ZW history - it states on pg.346 that there were  types of ZW transformers - the first was a Type 1 issued for 1948-49 this one had the same 250 watt power rating as its predecessor the Z.  The Type 2 was issued from 1950-1956 and was upgraded to 275 watts.  The Type 3 ZW was issued from 1957-1966 - this one had a new designation, the ZW(R) - the R did not appear on the nameplate.  According to Doyle the R reflected improvements made internally to ease assembly.

This thread was quite an "education" on the ZW!  Thanx for all your insight!

The info in this link is the same info as in the Greenberg books and doesn't list the 275's with the 2.5" top plate.

The riveted lamination occurred before the type R but all type R's have riveted laminations. I have worked on many ZW275 non type R's with riveted cores

...And has glaring errors throughout, gleaned from publications with both unintentional and intentional errors in them.

 And 18 volt pilot bulbs are exclusive only to the type R. 

Quote.  Train buffs like the looks of the Lionel ZW. And their chest puffs out when they say, " I have a Lionel ZW transformer "

  "King of them all" As stated in the 1956 sales cat.  I say the best darn looking Transformer ever made.

  "Mightiest of them all" As stated in the 1957 sales cat.

 In our thoughts on the subject did anyone bring up the info plate on the rear of the early ZW's? 

24kmac,

   Yes the back plate on the 48 & 49 ZW's was addressed in a very early post.

Paul,

   Actually the thread developed into a real nice discussion, thanks for asking the original question.

PCRR/Dave