Alternative To ZW?

The prewar Lionel Type Z has 250 Watts.  I use a Post War KW which has 190 Watts.

Jeff Davis

I have an American Flyer 30B with dual handles and gauges. I think it 300 watts. I have run my Lionel trains with it for over 40 years. Still going strong. I recommend one.

Bob

The Lionel LW has a great look and packs a 20 volt output plus some fixed voltage ranges.

Electroliner,

  The best transformer for the money expended, is the old Lionel KW, I own 2 of them myself,  you can usually pick up a completely rebuilt one, which preforms like brand new for $75.00.

In fact I just did this at the last Monroeville, Pa trains show from Ace's Train Station

here in Pittsburgh, Pa.  Give Ace a call he stands behind his work 100% - 412-213-0610.

PCRR/Dave

Lionel KW still one of the best time proven transformer for the money expended.

The prewar V was 150 or 175 watts & Z was 250 watts.  The ZW was eventually 275 watts & there was also a VW which is rare.  Regardless of what transformer you use, Lionel or American Flyer, use external breakers or fuses on all circuits.  I have a KW, but deem the ZWs to be better.

RJR,

   I agree the ZW's are better more powerful transformers, however they are costing about twice the money, as was pointed out in the original post, he is looking for an alternative.  You are absolutely correct about the Breakers or quick blowing fuses, being needed for safe guarding the DCS TIU, the old transformers have slowing blowing breakers that will allow the TIU to be damaged without the 10 Amp breakers or fuses.

PCRR/Dave

I wasn't worried so much about the TIU, as the house.  A burning transformer, or a fire out on the layout, is more of a hazard than a component burning out in a TIU.

RJR,

   Man I never even thought about that, Barry advised me long ago as to how to set up my older KW & ZW type transformers with the DCS, a fire I never thought about.

PCRR/Dave

Hi RJR,

Tried to contact you off Forum but you have no email listed.

I have an old VW and was wanting to find out more about them. Were they made for one year before the ZW or when?

Thanks,

Sam   email in my profile

For privacy reasons, I don't post an e-mail address.  I have to speak from memory, because my old Lionel catalogs were thrown out when I was in college, middle of last century.  My recollection is that the VW came out at the same time as the ZW.  It was available in 1948 & 1949.  It was cheaper, but not by much, and therefore buyers usually spent the few extra dollars for the ZW. 

I have a pictorial diagram of ZW & VW wiring, which in text states some differences.  I'll try to attach it.

Here's a link to some info; I seem to recall that VW & ZW came out at same time, contrary to what this note says.  But I'm not saying they're wrong.  http://www.tandem-associates.c...s_vw_transformer.htm

Thanks for all the wonderful replies with solid recommendations and information. I posted this to gather up a list of options to search out and all of you have helped a geat deal which I really do appreciate.

I have read a lot about the ZW, but, as far as alternatives, there just isn't a lot of information in just one place when it comes to vintage transformers, unless you spend a few hours of searching, and maybe come up with little or nothing useful.

The one I started with ( the 12B) I found as a random fluke and I run tinplate conventional. I was struck by how well the transformer looked in relation to the equipment, a better match..This one was kept in it's original box ( which came with it) for over 50 years..I replaced the cord and put it on a breaker equipped strip, checked the voltages..and it worked perfectly..built solid like an ingot. It has a built in breaker and it makes the MTH units look sort of cheap looking..in my book.

Oddly, I had one of MTH units ( controller  not the brick) go bad out of the blue, smelled smoke and that was that..you just never know, even with new stuff..I always turn off everything when I leave the room. I have a hard wired smoke detector system but I consider it like an idiot light on a car..when it goes off its too late...call 911. The MTH unit did not show any signs of erratic behavior right up until the end, ran perfectly. Here's the thing...the breaker did not trip...You just never know...

You're going to have a hard time beating that Flyer 12B for looks, it's Flash Gordon retro cool.  

I have a type R that also has two controls – plus the benefit of running 20V for my Hornby locos.  But it lacks the 12B's pizzaz.

I've got an old Type R, also, which I got in 1941.  Still runs fine.

Electroliner:  None of the ancient or modern transformers have a breaker on the 120 volt side, which can also have a failure.  I was in the Brunswick RR Museaum a few years ago, and smelled something burnig.  The attendant & I searched for a long time before I found a wall wart for a telephone had an internal failure & was red hot.

RJR

Thanks and I was aware of that which is why I mentioned all of my transformers are on a heavy gauge outlet strip with a internal and separate breaker. The 12B ( from what I understand) dates from 1946. The only other melt down in many years of operation was a smoking Marx lineside signal that remained lit. Go figure.

Hojack

It does have a Flash Gordan look..but it can't beat the Art Deco lettering on your Type R.. especially the vertical engraved stripes..very cool. If we could put all of them together ( the best of each) we would have one very way cool transformer 

it wasn't all that long ago the ZWs were being listed for $400+. Now I've seen them for closer to $100-$200. I have two Type Vs, that run my 10x18 three loops. I have  Type R that handles the lights and some acessories. 

Steamer,

   Usually here in the Pittsburgh, Pa area you can pick up a rebuilt ZW for about $125.00, and if you look around a little at the show, you can find one that looks like brand new.  The great thing about this area is that so many of these ZW transformers are still available.  The original ZW 250 Watt transformer is getting harder to find however, if you want the original, the later ZW 275 Watt transformers are readly available at the train shows all the time, they do vary in price however.  I know they guys like the looks of some of the different transformers, however for me the only real alternative to the ZW is the KW, 190 Watts at a more than reasonable price.  Put Scott 10 Amp Breakers in front of the KW and you have a great transformer for running your DCS mid-sized layouts.

PCRR/Dave

yeah I wanted a ZW for a long time, then I got my Vs(actually wanted Zs), and they fit my area perfectly. I think a ZW would take up too much space. 

Steamer,

    The KW is only about half as large, it might be a good option for your space requirement, and it has 190 watts of power, and at $75.00 for a rebuilt one, they are a steal econonically.

PCRR/Dave

thanks Dave. I wasn't looking for another transfomer. My Vs have more than enough power for me. But depending on how much bigger I can make the Christmas platform next year.....might need something bigger than my Rw 

The V is rated for 110 watts output, if you ever find one that puts out close to 140 continuous then you have a real gem there - don't get rid of it!

Alternative To ZW?    Bricks and TPC's with hand held control.

This parallel set of PH135, (Lower left), should be about the same capacity, (270 Watts). More Power Tim!!!!,  Parallel PH 180's, 360 watts. 75% of this is still a lot of train power IMO.  The two TPC's, (Track Power Controllers), (Lower, middle), silver boxes, would be similar to two handles.  Older control with a TMCC command base/Cab-1 handheld. (Lower right)  All is channel out to (8) different blocks, (tracks) via (2) BPC, (Block Power Controllers) middle left and (8) track fuses upper left. The BPC's allow for power to be routed from either TPC to any of the (8) different track blocks.  Industrial strength Transformer, (12Volt/ 750 watt), upper left is accessory power.  Accessory power is fused upper right, above the TMCC command base in the picture. 

Track power fuses no more than 7.5 amps. 

Accessory power fuses no more than 3 amps.

There is a picture of a VW at http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html...aster+Transformer%2C

It plainly says 150 watts.

In the 1950's, I used my type R, 100 watts (2 knobs, unlike the later RW), to run 2 locos at once on 2 loops, plus 2 pairs of 022 switches & a #97 coal elevator.  It never complained.  Still can'r figure why not.

As I noted above, Lionel's "Model Railroading" paperback (I still have both volumes, in pieces) said continuous operations shoud not exceed 75% of rated capacity.

That's input, not output.  And those are Type V transformers, not Type VW.

The reference to "VW" in my post above is an obvious typo; "V" was intended and is what is plainly pictured.  The 150 watts is the rating that appears on the transformer face.  You have now opened an entirely new subject, namely, the ratings which Lionel placed on the pre- and post-war transformer labels.  As I said, Lionel's publication said continuous operation should be limited to 75% of the rating.

Sorry, no way to know that as the VW is also rated at 150 watts input.

I didn't bring up the power output, that was Pine Creek Railroad.

I don't know how one can measure the actual power output and say what is the actual (not safe) limit.  Certainly, I was pulling more than 100 watts from that old Type R, and the breaker never opened from overheating.  (Of course, those old prewar breakers were and are suspect.) 

What power can be squeezed out of a transformer would depend on a number of factors: amperage, time, ambient temperature, facilities (if any) for cooling windings, how close one is willing to approach failure from heat, tolerable voltage output drop, etc.

Rob,

   I was going by what Lionel listed on the V transformer, for 150 Watt reference.

In reality it is less however.  RJR is correct all of the Lionel transformers actually

supply a lower watt out put, than they are rated at.

PCRR/Dave

You would have to do the math.  The "R" is rated at 70 watts output continuous, the breaker should open in 10 seconds with a 14 amp load.

A factor in the superb performance of the "R" type transformer is that it, like the "V" and "Z", has a 24 volt output.

That's not really a true statement. 

The Lionel input ratings are quite accurate, as well as the output ratings.

BUT, you have to know, from the service documentation and some of the owner's manuals, what the output ratings are.  There's no guessing -  for the most part it's all been published.

The 24-volt output of the R was not necessarily a benefit, because of the way it was obtained.  Using binding posts A-C or A-F, one got a range of 14-24 volts.  Using B-C or B-F, one got a range of 6-16 volts. 14 volts was too much for operating just a loco & tender; they would literally fly off the track at the first curve.  Therefore, that range was essentially unusable in a normal layout, and one had to use the 6-16.

The left knob moved the slider for post F; the right knob for post F

As an aside, binding posts A-B gave a fixed voltage of 8 volts.  Thus, A was one end of the secondary, with B connected 1/3 of way across the secondary.  E was at the other end of the secondary, so A-E would give a fixed voltage of 24 (not marked) A-D was 14, B-E 16, D-E 10 volts.

If they made a VW transformer would it be the Peoples transformer?

This transformer stuff sound like stereo power rating. Some listed peak output and some listed continuous power output. Cars same way HP at the cam. HP at the wheels.

I think all the newer stuff is watts continuous.

jsfro:  So there is no misunderstanding among forumites, the max wattage is the total drawn from the transformer, which is not related to the number of outputs, but to the gauge of the secondary winding and the ability to dissipate heat.  Wouldn't want someone to think that 150 watts, +/-, can be drawn from each output of a V or VW.

I wonder if the PW ZW could have had a higher rating if there had been some ventilation to cool the coils, as in a Z4000???????

Required reading for ZW owners/potential buyers:

ZW 250 versus ZW 275 Type R - Power Output