1309 Update.

Borden Tunnel posted:

...I would think that a experienced and respected person like Rich Melvin would care a little more and be able to understand the "big picture". I think he would feel the same as me if one of his beloved NKP lines was maligned.

 

I would indeed care about the big picture and the history, if the “history” had anything to do with the current situation. But it does not.

I repeat...this is not a history lesson. It is a hard-nosed business evaluation. Other than some of the track and tie issues, what Chessie, CSX, Western Maryland or Jack Schowalter did 50+ years ago has little to do with the current problems that the WMSR has to face. “History” didn’t handcuff the WMSR with a badly written grant. “History” didn’t cause the 734 to wear out. “History” didn’t steal the brasses. “History” didn’t cause the passenger counts to drop. “History” didn’t wear out the  passenger equipment. And “history” certainly didn’t cause the upheaval in the management structure of the railroad, which has a lot to do with the current situation.

Knowing the 19th century history of this line will not be of any help in solving the 21st century problems evident on the WMSR.

smd4 posted:

Borden Tunnel posted:

Maybe you're not into being factually correct about history, but I am; save your #*%! for somebody else.

Like Rich said, the report isn't a history lesson. The fact that the railroad was "pieced together from two separate railroads" doesn't help with deteriorating ties, tiny volunteer base, obsolete equipment, poor scenic views, stolen brasses or anything else. Heck, the "history" that has you so worked up comprised 12 typed characters in a 30 page document, and was said in passing ("ex FM&P (ex-PRR)"). 

 

Wrong documentation is still wrong, and that's how erroneous info gets passed down the internet, because almost no one will verify its accuracy once it's out there.

Actually, I've had enough of your ridicule over this; either spell out your real problem with me or go somewhere else.

kgdjpubs posted:

Rich Melvin posted:

With all due respect, the history of these lines has almost nothing to do with the state of the railroad TODAY.

I read the entire report. The deferred maintenance discussed in the report stems from decisions made by Chessie/CSX 20 to 40 years ago, not 150 years ago. The report stated that the former Western Maryland section is built to higher/heavier standards than the old PRR section of the line, but beyond that, the history of the line has nothing to do with the existing tie conditions that they have to deal with today.

I fail to see how this could be “offensive” to anyone. This report isn’t a history lesson, it’s a serious analysis of the state of the Western Maryland Scenic Railway business condition, the condition of railroad today and the problems they face going forward.

The simple fact is that the track issue is nothing different than what almost every tourist railroad in existence faces.  These places operate far closer to the edge than what most managers would be comfortable with, and that a proper tie replacement and brushcutting program had been inadequate for many, many years.  Being a mountain railroad with far greater than "average" stresses and wear placed on the equipment once you get on the C&P for the final few miles to Frostburg only makes it that much more expensive to operate.  Couple that with the landslide, which severely cut into tickets and available money, the challenges with 1309, and a complete management (and steam department) changeover, and this is where we are.

Track conditions have worsened precipitously in the past several years since it's rather obvious they are doing everything they can to barely stay afloat.  Track maintenance has basically ground to a halt, which is about the first thing that is cut when you are trying to stay alive.  They are paying the price of years of band-aid repairs (which went well beyond the steam program), and are living on a wing and a prayer regarding the current landslide situation.

The question becomes can they survive another hit of losing Frostburg for another undetermined amount of time as the swiss cheese of coal mines below the railway continues to shift.  That ticking time bomb appears to be inevitable.  They have a very qualified steam crew working, and the engine will be in great shape whenever it's ready, but I fear 1309 may soon be the least of their problems....

I thank you for a realistic viewpoint.

Historical accuracy is important.  But I doubt that author is reading this thread.  Best to contact them directly. 

Borden Tunnel posted:

Actually, I've had enough of your ridicule over this; either spell out your real problem with me or go somewhere else.

It’s not worth the effort. I have no dog in this fight.

I’ll go somewhere else.

It might have been better for the auditors just used WM or Chessie System and PRR.

But the rest of the report needs to be looked at carefully.  If the railroad shuts down, no body is going to give a rat's caboose who originally built what.

It can be noted the author of the report has commented in a similar thread on RYPN.    Thanks to Mr Gresham, I have found this thread to be very informative.

Bob

Borden Tunnel posted:

Actually, I've had enough of your ridicule over this; either spell out your real problem with me or go somewhere else.

I thought I did that in my previous post. But to state it again in a different way, you can't see the forest for the trees.

Spelled out clear enough?

Guys can we stop with the Personal Attacks? There is no reason that EVERY SINGLE DISCUSSION on the “Real Trains” forum has to have personal attacks! Enjoy the forum for what it is! I believe it is time this topic is shut down due to the two of you! Handle your issues with each other in DM’s or Email for god sake! The Real Trains Forum is following the path RYPN followed until new rules were set and bans were made! I honestly think that needs to be done here. You are GROWN MEN so stop acting like CHILDREN. I’m surprised this thread hasn’t been locked and deleted yet to be completely honest. 

@Allan Miller

OK...got several reports/alerts today for the first time on this thread....  I agree with the statement above, the real trains forum seems to always get emotional.  Lots of heated discussion going on here and it has to tone down a little or we will have to look at getting heavy handed...and I know you guys don't like that...

The other problem I can see with this railroad is it could damage by association.  If this tourist railroad is run badly, tben ALL are run badly.  Of course that is not true.  There are people on this blog who are members of such railroafs very well run.  But preception is 90 perecent of anything.

OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

OK...got several reports/alerts today for the first time on this thread....  I agree with the statement above, the real trains forum seems to always get emotional.  Lots of heated discussion going on here and it has to tone down a little or we will have to look at getting heavy handed...and I know you guys don't like that...

... heavy handed... ie Luca Brasi will pay you a visit. 😠  😂🤣

Larry

From the report:

Unfortunately the railroad also got rid of "Man O' War" which gave riders the opportunity to stand and have large doors that opened not just the vestibules. This car was traded/sold to the TVRM for god knows what reason. I'll miss it. I spent many hours riding in it on the WMSR and the NS steam program.

My family and I rode the 1309 "Maryland Thunder" yesterday. We had a great time. The engine was beautiful, and the sounds and smells too. So glad to finally lay eyes on it after so many years of waiting for the restoration to be completed.

Now, I need Lionel to make a scale model of the Western Maryland 1309.

@Craignor posted:

My family and I rode the 1309 yesterday. We had a great time. The engine was beautiful, and the sounds and smells too. So glad to finally lay eyes on it after so many years of waiting.

Now, I need Lionel to make a scale model of the Western Maryland 1309.

Very nice. However, remember that #1309 is NOT a "Western Maryland" steam locomotive, but a C&O steam locomotive just painted & lettered for Western Maryland.

HW

I agree

I understand the Western Maryland lettering, but I sure wish it was painted properly for the Chesapeake and Ohio

@NHVRYGray posted:

HW

I agree

I understand the Western Maryland lettering, but I sure wish it was painted properly for the Chesapeake and Ohio

Well, in fact they do have custom made magnetic "stick-on" lettering for the C&O, for when they operate photo charters.

I assume covers the Fireball.  Striping as well?

@NHVRYGray posted:

I assume covers the Fireball.  Striping as well?

One would certainly assume so, as those "high roller" photographers that pay big bucks to participate in those photo charters would want the locomotive to fully represent the original C&O 1309.

Just glad to see that it is now fully operational once again and being taken care of properly.

To have a locomotive sit outdoors slowly rusting away into oblivion is a great shame. 

Kudos to all those involved in the project to bring this locomotive back to life.

I just noticed the chalk writing on the hatch of the smokebox…anyone know what “Super Choo” means?

I am guessing "Super Choo" is a nickname given to the 1309, meaning simply big train, from someone on the renovation team. The S looks a lot like the S in the Superman logo.

Maybe Lionel will pick it up and put it on the model like the caulk  “big boy” on the freshly restored Big Boy,

@Craignor posted:

I just noticed the chalk writing on the hatch of the smokebox…anyone know what “Super Choo” means?

I'm curious, too. I've seen it used many other, but recent, times, by different people. Like Captain Crunch's below YouTube. Regardless, beautiful engine and so cool that it is running. Great day for you guys, Craig.

@Craignor posted:

My family and I rode the 1309 yesterday. We had a great time. The engine was beautiful, and the sounds and smells too. So glad to finally lay eyes on it after so many years of waiting.

Now, I need Lionel to make a scale model of the Western Maryland 1309.

In standard gauge!!

Jim

Yeah, I have seen the Captains name regarding Super Choo online.

That video mentions the whistle sounds like a Hudson, our waiter (who might be the Captain) yesterday said he works in the shop too and he had a lot of info. I asked about the 1309 whistle, because it sounded nice, unlike the normal C&O “hooter”. He said they have installed a NYC whistle on it now. Don’t know what happened to the C&O “hooter”, maybe it was stolen a few years ago with the other brass items?

@Craignor posted:

Yeah, I have seen the Captains name regarding Super Choo online.

That video mentions the whistle sounds like a Hudson, our waiter (who might be the Captain) yesterday said he works in the shop too and he had a lot of info. I asked about the 1309 whistle, because it sounded nice, unlike the normal C&O “hooter”. He said they have installed a NYC whistle on it now. Don’t know what happened to the C&O “hooter”, maybe it was stolen a few years ago with the other brass items?

The 1309 had been using an "N&W" hooter whistle before changing to the NYC whistle.