Williams madison coaches

There’s a whole host of numbers for William’s cars,….21” cars are as as close to scale as you’re gonna get,…as far as I know Williams didn’t offer any 21” cars ….Lionel, Kline & GGD do/did …….which diecast Williams Hudson do you have?…they’ve made scale, scale with a semi scale tender, and a semi scale Hudson ( traditional size) ……post a pic of the one you have,…

Pat

I've posted my Hudson before, it's the scale size one with scale size tender.

I was guessing at the sizes, I've seen the coaches described as "scale 80ft" so I guessed at 21". I've seem others described as "60ft" and "70ft". Much as I would like scale length, I think that 17" or so would better suit my circumstances.

Williams gear is rare over here in UK so I'm after some information

Rockershovel,

I've only seen two sizes from Williams and its successor Williams-by-Bachman.  These would be 15 inches (or 60 scale feet) and 18 inches (72 scale feet).

I'm interested in these cars as well.  Here's a partial compilation (and NYC only) of what I've found:

Be aware that Williams in notorious for changing its numbering and packaging schemes frequently throughout it's long history.  Unlike Lionel, which has used 6-xxxxx numbering for most of the last 50 years, and MTH, which uses 20-xxxxx-y and 30-xxxxx-y, Williams' product number formats are ridiculously unpredictable, hence can be hard to search for on the web.

Also, some sets have no set number because they were sold with neither a product number on the box, nor a label on the box, as you'll note when you look at the list.

I believe that most sets under the Williams-by-Bachman name are still in production and can be found in stock on a number of retailing websites.

Good luck with your search.

Mike

The 20" heavyweight cars were only made for one year.  Good looking cars and they are based on PRR prototypes.  They are distinguished by having color window inserts.  However that same year the 15" cars also had color inserts.

There are not numbering systems that I am aware of other than they are usually noted as being 20" cars in sales descriptions when the occasionally come up for sale.

I see the PRR cars and UP ones on the auction site for decent prices from time to time.

If they are the ones I am thinking of, I usually see them listed as either 60 foot, 70 foot or 80 foot passenger cars.  I got a 70 foot set back when Williams was still independent and was selling brass locos.  In other words the Middle Ages.  They are about 18" long if I recall correctly.  It also means stock numbers probably would not help since Bachmann may not have carried them forward.

As I recall the 20" cars were listed in the 1989 Williams Catalog.

The first one's were good copies of Lionel's Madison cars but be aware that they also came with none operating couplers. I would avoid those.

I don't want to be a disbeliever but I have never seen a 20" Williams heavyweight.  In the 1990 catalog Williams listed a 70' and an 80' Madison described as 'full scale'.

If someone has a 70' and 80' car could you post them side by side.

@Jim 1939 posted:

The first one's were good copies of Lionel's Madison cars but be aware that they also came with none operating couplers. I would avoid those.

I believe it was 1987 when Williams began having passenger car product made in Korea.  The Korean manufactured trucks are the earliest trucks that you would want to run on a regular basis.  Needle point axles and operating couplers.

Lots of useful information there, thanks. Revisiting the various ads I'd say there are two sizes - 15" and 18". I'm not greatly concerned about non-operating couplers, as I'm looking for a 5 car set of 18" cars for club running nights.

Press on!

The problem with the non operating coupler was the coupler arms sagged and would uncouple when running. The cars are well made but I sold them because of the couplers.

@Bill DeBrooke posted:

I don't want to be a disbeliever but I have never seen a 20" Williams heavyweight.  In the 1990 catalog Williams listed a 70' and an 80' Madison described as 'full scale'.

If someone has a 70' and 80' car could you post them side by side.

Bill,

I hadn't seen them either, however a set just popped up on one of the online auction sites.  It's not NYC, but UP, however there are apparently four 20" cars along with one 18" baggage car pictured.  Can't verify the length online but the set is pictured in a photo on that site and four of the cars are definitely longer than the baggage car.

It's Williams Set No. 2701, one of the sets listed on the flyer you posted earlier.

Mike

Following the above, the set I was looking at appears to be #723 with car numbers #100 to #104, 18" length. Couplers are listed as "operating knuckle coupler" and fast-angle wheels, which I guess makes it MPC-era?

I've also seen #43358, 4 car 18" set listed by a UK retailer, but listed OOS with no restocking date.

OK, now I know what is out there and what to look for. 4 or 5 18" cars would suit that loco well, I think, without taking up too much rail. This isn't urgent, I don't foresee a club running day before Easter so it's time to watch opportunities...

I have a set of their scale length cars.  The bodies are about 19 inches, the 20 inch measurement is from the end of the couplers, so it's not really scale length like the GGD or old Walthers cars are.  They are a little over a half inch longer than the K-Line cars and about the same length as the Pullman cars Lionel ran about 10 years ago.

I don't know this for certain, but from pictures I've seen and the window arrangements it looks like MTH wound up with those Williams car molds and sold them with a matching diner.  I've never owned the MTH cars, so I can't say for sure, but they look identical.

In the ‘90s everyone made 18” cars with silhouettes. They all tend to sell for around the same price or should. Lionel and MTH cars will have the best trucks and couplers. Williams may vary but starting in the mid to late ‘90s until today they are also good quality. K-Line cars with silhouettes have trucks that can be problematic. Their later cars with interiors are very good though.

Pete

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Bill,

I hadn't seen them either, however a set just popped up on one of the online auction sites.  It's not NYC, but UP, however there are apparently four 20" cars along with one 18" baggage car pictured.  Can't verify the length online but the set is pictured in a photo on that site and four of the cars are definitely longer than the baggage car.

It's Williams Set No. 2701, one of the sets listed on the flyer you posted earlier.

Mike

Well, we continue to learn in this hobby.

@Tom D. posted:

I have a set of their scale length cars.  The bodies are about 19 inches, the 20 inch measurement is from the end of the couplers, so it's not really scale length like the GGD or old Walthers cars are.  They are a little over a half inch longer than the K-Line cars and about the same length as the Pullman cars Lionel ran about 10 years ago.

I don't know this for certain, but from pictures I've seen and the window arrangements it looks like MTH wound up with those Williams car molds and sold them with a matching diner.  I've never owned the MTH cars, so I can't say for sure, but they look identical.

I’ve always thought that too,…beings Mike Wolfe and Williams were buddies, I can’t help but wonder how much tooling Mike wound up with from Williams, then either used it, or modified the tools to suit his production,…….

Pat

I've also discovered that #43253 is a 4-car set of 12" cars for O27.. the successor to the Lionel 24xx series, I suppose?

@Jim 1939 posted:

The first one's were good copies of Lionel's Madison cars but be aware that they also came with none operating couplers. I would avoid those.

Another problem with the original Madison cars was the connector to the pick up roller would short against the axles, I had to use heat shrink tubing to insulate them. I let all except one set of my Williams Madison's go in favor of the 60 foot Railking cars which look better behind a scale locomotive.

@Gene H posted:

Another problem with the original Madison cars was the connector to the pick up roller would short against the axles, I had to use heat shrink tubing to insulate them. I let all except one set of my Williams Madison's go in favor of the 60 foot Railking cars which look better behind a scale locomotive.

I've also seen a #2503 set which is identified in the table above as 15" length, 60ft. Food for thought!

TrainWorld has some new 4-car sets of Williams heavyweight passenger cars for $110. Can't remember the road names. Mario's Trains also has quite a bit of Williams at low prices. Both might be worth a call.

@Gene H posted:

Another problem with the original Madison cars was the connector to the pick up roller would short against the axles, I had to use heat shrink tubing to insulate them. I let all except one set of my Williams Madison's go in favor of the 60 foot Railking cars which look better behind a scale locomotive.

So I saw a nice 4-car set of MTH 60' Madisons and bought those. I've had good experiences with MTH stuff generally. I also have some 13 1/2" Lionel Madisons if I want to extend the consist. I have some Lionel 15" aluminium cars and I agree, they are a good size.

I have a set of the 15" / 16" cars in Erie Lackwanna from the late 80's that have the color window inserts.  I picked the set up at auction without paying attention and the couplers have zinc rot on some of the cars.  Just something else to be aware of.

I also have a set of Frank's Hobby House ones of the same size in the white 5 car set box from a few years after than in CNJ paint and they have never had any problems.

As for the 20" cars, I had an opportunity to buy a set of C&NW ones at a TCA auction about 4 years back.  They are noticeably larger than the Lionel or K-line "scale" heavyweights.  I passed for some reason I can't remember as I do like my scale length cars.

The 4-car set has arrived and I'm very pleased with them. Nice solid feel, no signs of rot on any of the trucks and couplers, either. I think they will look good behind the Williams scale Hudson.

The 18" cars are probably going to be the easiest to find and will look good with the scale Hudson. I have the scale Hudson and the 18" cars so this is based on my experience. Be careful if acquiring the cars used. They have issues with zinc pest on the trucks and you will not find replacements for the Williams scale heavyweights anywhere. The 16" cars have toylike trucks and are more suited for semi-scale locos. I only have one Williams heavyweight car that is longer than 18" and by only about an inch and a half.

The car on the bottom is a Williams 18", the other is an older Williams that is about 19 1/2". Maybe it is considered a 21" car?

Repa

Repainted Williams 17" observation car

Baggage car with the open door from the first set of five Jerry Williams offered about thirty years ago.  The observation car and three coaches had PULLMAN on the facia.  The baggage car shown has Railway Express Agency between the doors. 17" over the sills.  I added the REA square on point signs.  This car begat the MTH which begat the Atlas.  John

Did MTH sell the Pullman cars with the longer (20 inch) Williams molds?  I've seen MTH cars online that look like them, but never have seen one in person.

@rattler21 posted:

Repa

Repainted Williams 17" observation car

Nice job Rattler

John