Lionel T1 Duplex Legacy Upgrade

John,

that RS6 set up using the 691-MB15-A00 should support the LCS track IR sensor from what I can tell.

I usually don’t add it to my upgrades because it will change the name in the remote to what ever engine boards I’m using for the conversion. But in this case it be appropriate.

Nice project John.

Can you install the err command in a tmcc h9?

This also has the mechanical liquid smoke unit, is there enough room in there for one of your super chuff 2 with a fan driven unit?

Thanks for sharing your information

@Bruk posted:

John,

that RS6 set up using the 691-MB15-A00 should support the LCS track IR sensor from what I can tell.

I usually don’t add it to my upgrades because it will change the name in the remote to what ever engine boards I’m using for the conversion.

Bruk, that's why I'm considering the sensor car parts.  Those you can program for any ID, which would eliminate the issue of the wrong name.   I'm using the 691-MB15-A01, the same one that is used in the Legacy LionMaster T1 Duplex, I figured to pattern the wiring to what's in that tender.  I happen to have that locomotive, so I have a tender to look at that works with my modified locomotive.

My remaining "to-do" is to replace my smoke regulator, the one I had in my parts bin is flaky, it works great for a few seconds and then tails off to minimal smoke.  You can watch the voltage slowly go from a measured 6V to around 4V, and the smoke almost disappears.  This is a classic failure that I've seen many times before, those smoke regulators are pretty flaky.

John, you got that thing together quick!….you weren’t kidding when you said you were ready for it!….I trust she’s running smoothly after all that surgery?…

Pat

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Bruk, that's why I'm considering the sensor car parts.  Those you can program for any ID, which would eliminate the issue of the wrong name.   I'm using the 691-MB15-A01, the same one that is used in the Legacy LionMaster T1 Duplex, I figured to pattern the wiring to what's in that tender.  I happen to have that locomotive, so I have a tender to look at that works with my modified locomotive.

My remaining "to-do" is to replace my smoke regulator, the one I had in my parts bin is flaky, it works great for a few seconds and then tails off to minimal smoke.  You can watch the voltage slowly go from a measured 6V to around 4V, and the smoke almost disappears.  This is a classic failure that I've seen many times before, those smoke regulators are pretty flaky.

I have a basic wiring diagram for that tender thanks to you in the past for figuring how it was wired.  This helps doing LEGACY conversions on the scale T1's I can email that to you if you'd like.

@Bruk posted:

I have a basic wiring diagram for that tender thanks to you in the past for figuring how it was wired.  This helps doing LEGACY conversions on the scale T1's I can email that to you if you'd like.

Bruk, I sure would love to have the wiring diagram! Always nice to have a picture of what you're working on.

I'm looking now at how to arrange stuff.  Funny thing, I do notice that the motherboard has an IR Track Output, but the LM T1 Duplex doesn't have any IR transmitter on the tender.  I wonder what's the possibility that it's actually programmed to output something from the RS6 board?

@Fred M posted:

Nice project John.

Can you install the err command in a tmcc h9?

This also has the mechanical liquid smoke unit, is there enough room in there for one of your super chuff 2 with a fan driven unit?

Thanks for sharing your information

You're better off considering selling it and buying a Legacy version.  It's a very tight fit, and the full upgrade is knocking on the door to the Legacy models.

@harmonyards posted:

John, you got that thing together quick!….you weren’t kidding when you said you were ready for it!….I trust she’s running smoothly after all that surgery?…

Pat

Yep, I had all the stuff assembled, just had to get it out and start working.  Feels nice to be doing something for me for a change.

Decided to hack at the tender a little, drilled and tapped a bunch of holes and mounted all the stuff in preparation for wiring.

Awesome upgrades going into that scale T1! I will second your opinion that the Lionmaster Duplex has impressive sounds. The 5511's quillable whistle is one of my favorite sounds from any O Gauge locomotive.

For anyone who hasn't had the pleasure of listening to the Lionmaster Duplex, here's a video of my own Lionmaster Duplex running on my layout.

Wow, that is the one you found at the last York, right John? Oh I cannot wait to see when you have this marvel of wonders running around the rails.

John you might want to fix a tracking problem with the scale T1.  The wide flangeless drivers short out on most 072 switches.  A known problem.  Beveling them is the solution.  I think your upgrades are fantastic.  I wonder how far away Lionel is from a Vision type remake?

@Johnsgg1 posted:

John you might want to fix a tracking problem with the scale T1.  The wide flangeless drivers short out on most 072 switches.  A known problem.  Beveling them is the solution.  I think your upgrades are fantastic.  I wonder how far away Lionel is from a Vision type remake?

I sent it to Pat (Harmonyards) for the wheel bevel.  FWIW, there are a host of older 3rd Rail locomotives with the same issue.  In the case of the T1 Duplex, my biggest issue is with the Ross curved switches.

@Trainguy Ken posted:

Awesome upgrades going into that scale T1! I will second your opinion that the Lionmaster Duplex has impressive sounds. The 5511's quillable whistle is one of my favorite sounds from any O Gauge locomotive.

I wanted better sounds than the RS4, so the way to get there was the Legacy conversion.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Wow, that is the one you found at the last York, right John? Oh I cannot wait to see when you have this marvel of wonders running around the rails.

Actually, this is one that I bought on eBay, I bought the Legacy Santa Fe Northern at York.

@Bruk came through with one of his great wiring diagrams featuring the tender motherboard I'm using.  Other than a missing resistor for the backup-light, it's spot-on.  It is missing the marker lights, I believe they're powered directly from track power for the Legacy tender.

Today is wiring day, so this is a timely addition.

@Johnsgg1 posted:

John you might want to fix a tracking problem with the scale T1.  The wide flangeless drivers short out on most 072 switches.  A known problem.  Beveling them is the solution.  I think your upgrades are fantastic.  I wonder how far away Lionel is from a Vision type remake?

John sent the T1 to me and I took care of the fat blind drivers ….it was a clock bandit of a job, but it turned out nice …..I’ve done several 3rd Rails….they’re easier to do than any locomotive with captured axles,….

Pat

John - Would like to see a video of that bad boy on your layout when you have it all put together.  Keep up the good work!

@Bruk posted:

John,

that RS6 set up using the 691-MB15-A00 should support the LCS track IR sensor from what I can tell.

I usually don’t add it to my upgrades because it will change the name in the remote to what ever engine boards I’m using for the conversion. But in this case it be appropriate.

There’s a way to program the legacy base to ignore the info from a particular engine going over a track sensor per @Dave Olson. A computer needs to be connected to the base as if you are upgrading firmware using the legacy program.  I’ve never done it, and sadly forgot how Dave told me what needs to be done.

John, what LED part number did you use for the headlight?  My Lionmaster T1 has a headlight with a slight greenish cast to it that I find annoying.  I painted the lens with some Tamiya orange and that helped, but I'm still dissatisfied with the appearance.  I think the ultimate fix is a new headlight.

Please advise.

Dale

@harmonyards posted:

John sent the T1 to me and I took care of the fat blind drivers ….it was a clock bandit of a job, but it turned out nice …..I’ve done several 3rd Rails…they're easier to do than any locomotive with captured axles,….

Pat

Nice work.

Did you do a rough grind and finish with rotating the wheels and grinding at the same time?

Added build pictures to first post I didn't add at first.

https://ogrforum.com/...c/159660139355162121

@Pennsylover posted:

John, what LED part number did you use for the headlight?  My Lionmaster T1 has a headlight with a slight greenish cast to it that I find annoying.  I painted the lens with some Tamiya orange and that helped, but I'm still dissatisfied with the appearance.  I think the ultimate fix is a new headlight.

Part Number?   I buy my LED's in bulk, these were listed as "warm white diffused", and I believe I got them on eBay several years back.  They are a great color, I think they come in at about 2800K on the LED Kelvin color chart.  These happen to be 3mm flangeless LED, perfect for replacing the 3mm incandescents.

@DaveGG posted:

Nice work.

Did you do a rough grind and finish with rotating the wheels and grinding at the same time?

To be honest, I had thought about doing it that way, but if I slipped, it could’ve been disastrous…..so I carefully pulled each wheel and did it in the lathe,….I then finished it with 800 grit paper to polish the new bevels for a seamless transition….afterwards, I re-blackened the blind drivers with Caswell’s cold black oxide refinishing system….John’s T1 had splined blind drivers, so that made quartering fairly simple …..some very minor touch ups on the axle ends, made for an undetectable service …..

Pat

Wow.  Thanks for the details of your craftsmanship.

John what chef rate did you settle on?

Ron

I use four chuffs as the articulated chuffs are generated by the sound set, so you get the correct sounds.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I use four chuffs as the articulated chuffs are generated by the sound set, so you get the correct sounds.

But the T1 has four cylinders each exhausting two times per rev.  So unless both sets of "engines" are in sync (four chuffs) there is some cadence of eight chuffs.

Ron

@PRRronbh posted:

But the T1 has four cylinders each exhausting two times per rev.  So unless both sets of "engines" are in sync (four chuffs) there is some cadence of eight chuffs.

Ron

The sound set does the offset chuffs, as long as it’s set for 4, the sound set will give the needed chuffs for 4 cylinders,….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

The sound set does the offset chuffs, as long as it’s set for 4, the sound set will give the needed chuffs for 4 cylinders,….

Pat

I have not heard that "offset" that corresponds to the by sight rod position.

Ron

@PRRronbh posted:

I have not heard that "offset" that corresponds to the by sight rod position.

Ron

Listen on YouTube to any of the 4 cylinder Legacy engines, and you’ll hear what we’re talking about ( and trying to explain to you )

Pat

@PRRronbh posted:

I have not heard that "offset" that corresponds to the by sight rod position.

Trust me, it's there.  The correct chuff switch setting is 4-chuffs/rev for articulated sound sets.  The whole reason they're called "articulated" is because they add that sound element!+

Here's an example, this is the Vision Line Big Boy starting out, look just past the one minute mark in the video:

This looks awesome John, can’t wait to see it completed. This doesn’t directly apply here with RS6 but I did notice when diagnosing a tether issue that with the RS-lite and the RCMC the RCMC informs the RS-lite over the serial data as to what locomotive it is. For example I had a issue with a S-3 and wanted to confirm the tender wadded g the IR data so I hooked it too a newer VL challenger just so happens it went over a sensor. The s-3 was Eng 61 so when it whet over it loaded Union Pacific Challenger #3985 into slot 61.

Yep, it would presumably load the data for whatever sound board you had, that would be in the tender.  My understanding it it just transmits the data continuously.  Since the older Legacy that transmitted to the track IR didn't have the RCMC to provide the data, it comes from the tender.  The RS6 board has an output for the track IR, just not sure exactly how it operates, I'm looking into that.

@harmonyards posted:

Listen on YouTube to any of the 4 cylinder Legacy engines, and you’ll hear what we’re talking about ( and trying to explain to you )

Pat

One year when N&W1218 a simple articulated was in town storming south about to roll over some pennies I placed on the track was up close with the shutter button down and "heard" eight distinct exhaust  releases!

Also in the MTH  system one can dial in 2, 4, 6, 8 etc. cuff rate and you will hear that distinct rate.

Ron

@PRRronbh posted:

One year when N&W1218 a simple articulated was in town storming south about to roll over some pennies I placed on the track was up close with the shutter button down and "heard" eight distinct exhaust  releases!

Also in the MTH  system one can dial in 2, 4, 6, 8 etc. cuff rate and you will hear that distinct rate.

I'm not sure what you're pushing, but if you like how MTH does it, I suggest you stick with MTH.   It seems like you're trying to beat us into submission to your point of view.

I know that programming 8-chuffs with a Lionel articulated sound board sounds like a machine gun, and the sound seems right to me with the actual chuff switch set to 4-chuffs.  Since it's my Railroad, it's my rules and I'll use what sounds right to me and what virtually all the newer Lionel models use, 4-chuffs.

@PRRronbh posted:

One year when N&W1218 a simple articulated was in town storming south about to roll over some pennies I placed on the track was up close with the shutter button down and "heard" eight distinct exhaust  releases!

Also in the MTH  system one can dial in 2, 4, 6, 8 etc. cuff rate and you will hear that distinct rate.

Ron

4 cylinders USUALLY means 8 chuffs,……again, when John sets his system to 4 chuffs, the Legacy sound system will deliver 8 chuffs, ……..now does it make sense?..

Pat

@zhubl posted:

This looks awesome John, can’t wait to see it completed. This doesn’t directly apply here with RS6 but I did notice when diagnosing a tether issue that with the RS-lite and the RCMC the RCMC informs the RS-lite over the serial data as to what locomotive it is. For example I had a issue with a S-3 and wanted to confirm the tender wadded g the IR data so I hooked it too a newer VL challenger just so happens it went over a sensor. The s-3 was Eng 61 so when it whet over it loaded Union Pacific Challenger #3985 into slot 61.

Thanks, the only thing I'm waiting on is a replacement smoke voltage regulator.  The one I have installed is really flaky.  It was just dropping the volume of smoke to low a few seconds after setting.  Turned out you could keep setting it back to high and finally get it to work.  However, then it took a dump and went crazy and cooked my smoke PCB!   I put a new PCB in and turned off the smoke until I get the new regulator.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm not sure what you're pushing, but if you like how MTH does it, I suggest you stick with MTH.   It seems like you're trying to beat us into submission to your point of view.

I know that programming 8-chuffs with a Lionel articulated sound board sounds like a machine gun, and the sound seems right to me with the actual chuff switch set to 4-chuffs.  Since it's my Railroad, it's my rules and I'll use what sounds right to me and what virtually all the newer Lionel models use, 4-chuffs.

Not pushing anything but the fact that a four cylinder simple steam engine will exhaust some radiance of eight chuffs per rev period.  Where as a compound articulated will chuff only four per rev.  And yes understand the sound of a machine-gun since have fired more than a few.  One German >22 with 15 round mag fire so quick there was only one "short" burst.

Ron