Lionel T1 Duplex Legacy Upgrade

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yep, it would presumably load the data for whatever sound board you had, that would be in the tender.  My understanding it it just transmits the data continuously.  Since the older Legacy that transmitted to the track IR didn't have the RCMC to provide the data, it comes from the tender.  The RS6 board has an output for the track IR, just not sure exactly how it operates, I'm looking into that.

Actually my findings were the exact opposite. The RS-Lite board remembers the Engine ID to send the data into put gets the engine info from whatever the RCMC is sending out the IR tether

Just don’t know if the RS 6 worked the same way.

The RS6 board is never paired with the RCMC, that has a different serial data stream for audio, hence all the RCMC equipped locomotives used the RS-Lite board.  The RS-Lite board will also not work properly with any of the R4LC legacy versions for the same reason.  Since the R4LC has no capability to send the ID data, it is stored in the tender, either the RS6 board or an add-on board.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The RS6 board is never paired with the RCMC, that has a different serial data stream for audio, hence all the RCMC equipped locomotives used the RS-Lite board.  The RS-Lite board will also not work properly with any of the R4LC legacy versions for the same reason.  Since the R4LC has no capability to send the ID data, it is stored in the tender, either the RS6 board or an add-on board.

Actually the Vision 700E Hudson has an RCMC and an RS6 board.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Actually the Vision 700E Hudson has an RCMC and an RS6 board.

It must have special serial code, there are several sound features that don't work right if you mix an RCMC with the RS 5.5 or RS 6 boards.  One that springs to mind immediately is the bell operation.  The RS-Lite Legacy boards don't have a continuous bell function, they just have a single ring.  The RCMC sends out a "ring" command for each strike of the bell.  According to Jon Z. this was done to centralize the "smarts" in one place so the functions didn't get out of sync as they do occasionally.  It certainly made sense to me to have a single entity controlling all the repetitive functions.  Of course, it could also be the specific RS6 board that was modified to handle the bell like the RCMC

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I wanted better sounds than the RS4, so the way to get there was the Legacy conversion.

Actually, this is one that I bought on eBay, I bought the Legacy Santa Fe Northern at York.

Ah, that's right. Forgot it was the Northern, but I remember we had talked about the Duplex's that were at York. I do also remember you saying about the flanges being too darn big and if they ever released a Legacy version, it would be derailments all over the place.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It must have special serial code, there are several sound features that don't work right if you mix an RCMC with the RS 5.5 or RS 6 boards.  One that springs to mind immediately is the bell operation.  The RS-Lite Legacy boards don't have a continuous bell function, they just have a single ring.  The RCMC sends out a "ring" command for each strike of the bell.  According to Jon Z. this was done to centralize the "smarts" in one place so the functions didn't get out of sync as they do occasionally.  It certainly made sense to me to have a single entity controlling all the repetitive functions.  Of course, it could also be the specific RS6 board that was modified to handle the bell like the RCMC

John,

In my Legacy T1 I did, I used the RCMC and RS6 and have had no issues. Just a faulty smoke circuit.

@Bruk posted:

In my Legacy T1 I did, I used the RCMC and RS6 and have had no issues. Just a faulty smoke circuit.

Odd, I'll have to revisit my tests.  I think I need to build a RCMC test stand to make tinkering with them easier.

John,

I can't wait to see the finished product.  Here is mine with the Cruise Commander M and the Legacy T1 Board.  It works/sounds great, but I can't wait to see how well yours is after the upgrade.

@C&O Allan posted:

John,

I can't wait to see the finished product.  Here is mine with the Cruise Commander M and the Legacy T1 Board.  It works/sounds great, but I can't wait to see how well yours is after the upgrade.

Well, it runs great, sounds great, but just doesn't have smoke right now.  When my Lionel order comes in, I'll fix that with a new smoke voltage regulator.  The reason I wanted to do the Legacy upgrade was to get the much better labored sounds using the brake and throttle with momentum.  Of course, I also get the quilling whistle.

Hi JOHN,

  Here is my version of the T1 and I did the ERR cruise M along with switching out the sound boards with the Legacy boards from Lionmaster T1.  I did confer with C&O ALLEN, his worked so I went and purchased the boards from Lionel.

@laz1957 posted:

Here is my version of the T1 and I did the ERR cruise M along with switching out the sound boards with the Legacy boards from Lionmaster T1.  I did confer with C&O ALLEN, his worked so I went and purchased the boards from Lionel.

I have a really dumb question.  The smoke is constant, what happened to the chuffing if you installed the Super-Chuffer?  It  doesn't look like the Super-Chuffer is wired to control the smoke unit fan.

HI JOHN,

  I might have to open it up and see?  I hooked it up to the chuff switch.  I might have hooked it on the wrong prong?  

Something is hooked up wrong.  I notice you didn't use either the automatic cab light or Rule-17 headlight, I have both of those hooked up on mine.

@laz1957 posted:

HI JOHN,

  I might have to open it up and see?  I hooked it up to the chuff switch.  I might have hooked it on the wrong prong?  

Here's a full Super-Chuffer installation.  Note that the continuous smoke at idle terminates with movement and you get synchronized smoke.  Also, the main headlight is dim when stopped, and goes to full brightness when we start moving,  Finally, the cab lights are turned off when we start moving.  All of that is controlled by the Super-Chuffer when fully wired.

Hi John,

Some beautiful work! The right guy was on the job LOL

Alex

@Bruk posted:

John,

In my Legacy T1 I did, I used the RCMC and RS6 and have had no issues. Just a faulty smoke circuit.

Bruk,

Do you have any photos of inside the engine of the work you did?  I am wondering how hard it would be to add the whistle smoke option.

Thanks,

@Alex M posted:

Hi John,

Some beautiful work! The right guy was on the job LOL

Alex

Thanks Alex, but I'm still jealous of Bruk's whistle steam.   I'll have to stick that in my next one.   I hope Lionel gets my smoke regulator here soon, I can't get much smoke out of mine until I replace that.

I’m on the sidelines here, but I will comment that Bruk’s video of this model was very impressive.  The whistle steam and the whistle itself were outstanding.  Cool engine and certainly worthy of the upgrades.  Keep up the good work!

@DaveGG posted:

Bruk,

Do you have any photos of inside the engine of the work you did?  I am wondering how hard it would be to add the whistle smoke option.

Thanks,

Its not an easy task.., it requires and entire gutting of the engine and rewire. Also it requires a bunch of custom fitted parts. But I do offer the LEGACY “upgrade” as a service. Its just expensive to do it all. Email if interested.

I posted a whole thread on here when I did mine. But I have changed up the design a little so it doesn’t look exactly same as whats seen.

https://ogrforum.com/...cy-conversion?page=1

Bruk, I'd be interested in converting my smoke to a better funnel, I think that will make a significant difference.

Great video John.

In an interesting side note, I see that Bruk's class lights are green, and the ones on my locomotive are amber.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

In an interesting side note, I see that Bruk's class lights are green, and the ones on my locomotive are amber.

I acquired some green lenses from other markers used on many engines and installed them in place of the original. Later on ill install clear lenses, then add a bi-color LED.

@Bruk posted:

I acquired some green lenses from other markers used on many engines and installed them in place of the original. Later on ill install clear lenses, then add a bi-color LED.

Interesting, are you running an RCMC that supports the two-color LED?  I guess you could just stick a switch in to manually change the colors...

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Interesting, are you running an RCMC that supports the two-color LED?  I guess you could just stick a switch in to manually change the colors...

Ngineering has a Classification board. I was going to make a circuit up with that to trigger the color change for that board they offer.  

How are you triggering the color change, command controlled?  What kind of LED are  you using?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

How are you triggering the color change, command controlled?  What kind of LED are  you using?

I haven’t attempted it yet. But I was going to use the marker circuit on and off to trigger the board to change the led(s) it will require some low voltage solid state relays. But its not impossible.

https://www.ngineering.com/connect_steam_class.htm

Given the fact that you're looking at a circuit, no sense in adding the expense of the extra board.  In truth, if you just took the headlight and marker light voltage in, then you could only change the color when the marker cycled on/off out when the headlight was on.  That would address the lights changing colors when you powered down.  Truthfully, this would be a board with an 8-pin processor and a couple of components to power the processor.  Given the lack of a common ground, you might have to also include optocoupling.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Given the fact that you're looking at a circuit, no sense in adding the expense of the extra board.  In truth, if you just took the headlight and marker light voltage in, then you could only change the color when the marker cycled on/off out when the headlight was on.  That would address the lights changing colors when you powered down.  Truthfully, this would be a board with an 8-pin processor and a couple of components to power the processor.  Given the lack of a common ground, you might have to also include optocoupling.

Thats sort of what I was thinking about using the headlight to power it. Its a pretty simple idea but I don’t have the knowledge to make this basic circuit as you describe. Hence why I was going to use the Ngineering board.

Well, if you're wiring up the latching relays, etc. you're doing the hard part!  Also, they don't offer isolation from the power source, so you still have to deal with that issue.  Maybe you can use the 5V from the RCMC that would be referenced to the DC ground to power it.

From the looks of the N8039 operation description, you'd have to setup the class lights every time you powered up.  I'd rather write the state to non-vol memory and remember the color and state until it was changed.  It looks like a PITA to have to setup each power cycle.

1. When the simulator module is powered-up all LED outputs are off to simulate the most-common (dark) class light mode.

2. Taking the input control to ground (either momentarily or holding it there) turns on the green LEDs.

3. These will stay lighted until the input is released from ground and re-grounded. The and condition simulates a pushbutton being pushed a second time (or a switch being turned off then back on).

4. Once the input is re-grounded, green LEDs turn off and the white LEDs turn on.

5. These will stay lighted until the input is released from ground and re-grounded.

6. Once the input is re-grounded, white LEDs turn off and all class light LEDs are off.

7. When the input is again released and re-grounded we go back to step 2 (green LEDs on).

This is where DCC would make this mod a cinch with off the shelf decoders and user programable controllers.

Pete

@Norton posted:

This is where DCC would make this mod a cinch with off the shelf decoders and user programable controllers.

Given the environment Pete, this isn't particularly useful information.

You guys do realize that you're jumping through these hoops only to provide toy train Christmas tree lighting to these scale locomotives, right?

From a timeline article in The Keystone, the quarterly magazine of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society:

June 1940 - PRR ceases to use the train classification light rule (for extra,
required white lights; for section(s) following, required green lights) - shops ordered to
remove classification light fixtures from locomotive smokeboxes.

@Bob posted:

You guys do realize that you're jumping through these hoops only to provide toy train Christmas tree lighting to these scale locomotives, right?

From a timeline article in The Keystone, the quarterly magazine of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society:

June 1940 - PRR ceases to use the train classification light rule (for extra,
required white lights; for section(s) following, required green lights) - shops ordered to
remove classification light fixtures from locomotive smokeboxes.

Yes, we know we went over this when I added green to mine and everyone lost it….this is more talk for other the integration of the actual features function in general…

@Norton posted:

This is where DCC would make this mod a cinch with off the shelf decoders and user programable controllers.

Pete

I stand with you.

@Bruk posted:

I stand with you.

OK, problem solved, you're going to DCC.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

OK, problem solved, you're going to DCC.

DCC, the loneliest island in all of O gauge. 😉

@Madockawando posted:

DCC, the loneliest island in all of O gauge. 😉

Or is O gauge the loneliest island of command control. 🙃

@Bruk posted:

Or is O gauge the loneliest island of command control. 🙃

Or DCC is the loneliest hut on the loneliest Island of O gauge.😉

John,

Sounds like you should come up with a board then!