2-Rail Scale (?)

I have not figured it out either.    I think there are a lot of posters who are trying to understand 2-rail and considering whether they want to convert.   

 

You can usually tell by the topic and questions which are established in 2-rail and which are new comers.   

 

There are other 2 rail forums also.

Thanks -- what other 2-rail forum would you recommend? I've been in 2-rail O scale

for about 40 years, but I haven't made much use of online resources in that time.

In reality, there is a lot of discussion and very little that is of use at any one time.   It is more like meeting over a cup of coffee and discussing what you are doing.   Since you have been doing so long,  you may be more of a provider of answers than an asker of questions!

 

O Scale Trains Magazine has a set of forums.   They are not nearly as active as this, but almost totally 2 rail.  

 

The ones I find most useful are the buy/sell when I am looking for something specific, and the specialized areas such as DCC.   I converted to DCC about 5 years ago and I got a lot of useful help from various forums.   I use Digitrax and there is a Yahoo forum specifically for that.

There are several 2-rail O scale discussion groups that are on Yahoo-Groups.  Otrains, Oscale modelers, O Scale Kings, P48-modeler, etc.  Then there are the 2 rail magazines: O Scale Trains and the digital O Scale Resourse Magazine.

 

Charlie

In the beginning I was put off because of the 3 rail guys visiting on the two rail site but then reflecting on it, the only big difference was the 3rd rail. My understanding was it was being scale as much as possible. The 3rd rail just helps these guys operate in tight spaces as O is BIG Many of us don't have that operating space but enjoy the BIG trains.I would think that several would go to two rail but are pretty well invested in the 3 rail operations.

So, I have no problem as it is Scale trains as much as possible under the constraints of their space. I also must say if it wasn't for the 3 rail segment most would not have as much of the 2 rail trains we enjoy now.

 

Phill

I'm not sure of the demographics of the forums, and how often 3-rail or 2-rail threads are visited or topics created.  But if this is any indication, my train dealer told me that 90% of his sales are for 2-rail.

 

2-rail can be made to run on as tight radius as 3 rail.    This usually means removing or modifying underside details to allow more truck swing.    Also body-mount couplers can become an issue when the radius is getting under about 36 inches (o72 for you other guys!).    Some sort of swivel mount may become necessary.    However 40 ft and 50 ft cars with body mount will operate fine on 36 inch radius, I have a friend who does it on a 3-rail layout.

The 3-rail/2-rail symbiotic relationship has been around for some time. A lot of my 3-rail cars started out as 2-rail cars. Ironically, some of them have gone back to 2-rail. As you mention, I have a huge investment in 3-rail locomotives (all scale-sized) and rolling stock and while converting the rolling stock could eventually be done, replacing/converting all of the locomotives isn't practical. Hence, whenever I get my layout built it will probably be a hybrid to support the few pure 2-rail locomotives that will eventually join my roster and the legacy (small L) equipment that runs on 3-rails. Another irony is that I follow the belief that "just because I can doesn't mean I should", meaning that I design around broad curves following standards applicable to 2-rail layout construction for larger equipment.

 The funny thing to me was they are welcome here as they should be. When I posted on the 3RS forum, I got pushed off!! There were several members there that were cranky.

 I like the opinion of three rail guys too, as they have bought and been in the hobby longer than myself usually. I notice the trouble usually starts when strictly two rail guys get pushed around on their pickiness about authenticity of their RRs.

 These are just toy trains and we all have that in common.

It's hard to tell sometimes when guys are just joking around. I do like this forum the best. I like OST, but I miss Joe G so much that I get sad just thinking about that site.

 Now if you've been in 2 rail that long and don't get online, I truly believe you have not wasted any of your time arguing it's merits like I have.

It isn't that bad.  Once in a while I get jumped.  I have learned that it is not a good thing to jump back.  Also once in a while I have to express my incredulity - I am trying to resist.  I personally do not get all wrapped up in exact fidelity to scale, and sometimes it seems to me that most 2-railers are far less sensitive to, say, whether the number boards are correct for the early tender lettering than are folks who have a center rail.  I do try to state "opinion" when I type something that might be controversial, so I do not get attacked for my "facts".

I enjoy working in 2-rail O scale, but I don't want to spend time too much time and energy debating the relative merits of different scales, gauges, number of rails, and so on. I happen to like the size and heft of O scale, and I've made some design compromises that might not appeal to anyone else in order to have a layout that satisfies me. As someone else pointed out, part of the appeal of 2-rail for many of us is the fact that you can't just go out and buy whatever you want, when you want it.

 

One thing I have enjoyed lately is buying older O-scale freight cars on e-Bay (often built from long-gone kits), then repairing and upgrading them with new trucks, wheels, couplers, brake gear, roof walks, and paint where needed. I've assembled a freight cat fleet that includes a lot of outside-braced boxcars (my favorite kind) at a fraction of the cost of brass models.

 

I'm also not hung up on exact-scale fidelity, so I'm happy to settle for "good enough." I think that running my trains on rails 5 feet apart gives me license to let some other "details" go as well. Even Kohs' exquisite locomotives with museum-like details are still out of gauge -- I don't think it's worth paying for all the amazing bells and whistles (literally) when all the beautiful driving wheels are still 3-1/2" too far apart.

Now, that last part's opinion; but it's a fact that the gauge is wrong.

Agree with Matt.  Symbiotic.

 

Many of the same guys are prominent posters on both the 3RS and 2RS forum.  A large number of topics could be posted on either.  

 

If it's hard to choose I say just go ahead and pick one and do it. If you get a helpful input that you'll get better results on a different forum.  Do it.  If you get a negative reaction.  Deal with it or ignore it.    

 

 

You want real irony? When I returned to the hobby back in the late 1980's, I had lost interest in non-scale equipment. A large portion of my rolling stock consisted of 2-rail Weaver cars that I had converted to 3-rail "back when I was in 3-rail" (that slipped out at the club last week -- you should have seen the looks.) Now I've been converting some of those same cars back to 2-rail...and running them on the 3-rail club layout. The other members are threatening an intervention.

The other members are threatening an intervention.

Not all. A couple of us have your back.

Fight the good fight Matt....

Ha, ha.  I clearly I need an intervention too, Matt. 

 

My long time 3 rail friends just look at me funny and say I went to the "dark side" but that's okay since I still run 3 rail scale.   My new 2 rail friends have welcomed me to the "dark side" but are kinda suspicious and look at me funny since I was 3 rail  for so many decades -- like I'm sorta part of the great unwashed  -- not a purist.

 

And I get knowing smiles and polite words from both groups when I pull out my MTH PS3 engines with scale wheels that run 3 rail or 2 rail and DCC or DCS.  The 3 rail guys don't get the scale wheel thing and the "funny" little Kadee couplers. The 2 rail guys don't get the compromises MTH must make for this to work.  Neither group believed me when I told them that the lobster claw couplers and the Kadees work very well together if both are set at the correct height.   Had to prove it.

 

Me?  I'm happy.  Having the best time of my model railroading life!!  If I'm having the best time of my model railroading life and am happy then clearly I need an intervention!

 

 

I ran on the Orange County O Scalers 2-rail modular layout at the Big Train Show in Ontario last month. Took the MTH ES44AC Hybrid out of the box, flipped the 2-rail and DCC switches, removed the pickup rollers and we programmed it into their NCC DCC system first shot. Ran flawlessly for four hours -- actually better than the other locomotives on the layout. Got a couple of MTH Proto-3 converts in the process. Nothing like actually seeing the things work to sell a product. Of course, they said my journey to the dark side is now complete. After that, I started looking at DCC systems again.

 

I'm having a blast. I can enjoy the best of both worlds. Another bonus is that the 6-axle diesels find the track bad spots so we can fix them.

I'm puzzled that most of the posts seem to be about 3-rail topics.

 

It's called "2-Rail Envy"

 

Some of us 3RS guys that post on the 2-rail forum wish we had seen the light before the 3-rail buying habits started snowballing down the hill.  I've got enough invested in 3-rail (rolling stock and track/switches) that it would be costly to convert.  If I would STOP BUYING 3-RAIL, I would have the necessary funds to make the conversion .  If I had converted back when I joined the forum I could have done it easily/cheaply.

 

A lot of guys convert easily found 3-rail items to 2-rail so I think that's also why you see so many 3-rail topics.

 

Another reason...there's a lot of wisdom on this 2-rail forum and 3-rail scale guys like myself come here to ask questions concerning prototypical modeling and operations.

 

The only real differences between 2-rail and 3-rail Scale is the number of rails and the electronics involved in getting power to the engines (and PS3 kinda does away with the power issue).  A lot of 3-rail "non-scale" guys are mainly collectors, not operators.  To them, as long as it says Lionel or MTH on the side, the accuracy of the model is secondary.

I would prefer to state that you have seen the light, Bill.

I am a 3-rail guy but I do enjoy seeing 2-rail layouts and equipment.  I have a 2 rail circus train that I run on my 3-rail layout with O-72 curves.

 

Except for the track, couplers, and flanges, two and three rail scale layouts are the same.  Both layouts use scale scenery, buildings, bridges, vehicles, boats, etc.

 

Here are some photos that I took of two 3-rail layouts that compare favorably with any 2 rail layout.  Yes, the Lionel coal loader shown in the first photo does work.  There are many Lionel and MTH buildings on these layouts.  Both layouts were featured in recent issues of the TCA Quarterly.  This is one advantage of TCA membership - you get to visit amazing layouts like this.    

 

 

Who cares. We are a bunch of grumpy old f---rts who still play with trains.  I wish the Atlas O Web site was still running. There seemed to be a lot of info on the site. At least they never took it down.

Excellent layout, Joe.  My three rail friends say, and I agree, that the center rail doesn't matter because they focus on the train passing by and the center rail is hidden under the train. The kinetic approach.  Works for me on the modular club layout.  No time to contemplate trackage with 4 mainlines often running at toy train speeds or in the case of the 3RS members a double headed consist of 60 cars.  BUT, at home, less kinetic, I appreciate the 2 rail trackage.  It's all good.

Yes that is a fine looking layout.  I switched for the obvious reason...I hated the center rail.  That said however I love a bunch of the 3 rail layouts I have seen here, so much talent and skill on this forum. But about the center rail....

A whole lot of two- railers have little to no scenery.  That includes me - scenery is not my big deal in life, although I appreciate the work of others.

 

To understand 2-railers, consider:

 

A railroad is composed of track and things that roll on the track.  A 2- railer likely considers track as about 50% of what makes a believable scene, with the other 50% being the things that fit the track.  Otherwise, why not model trucks?  Or monorails?

 

Three-railers come in several flavors - the only flavor I think is on the right track, so to speak, is the one that simply likes the looks of that center rail.

 

This will get howls of protest from those who do not like the center rail, but who have too much invested to convert.  I have no sympathy - life is full of choices, and one is to not put up with objectionable features of your hobby.

 

Yow, huh?  Try not to take me too seriously.

I find it hard to believe that anyone actually likes the appearance of the middle rail, though I can understand having some nostalgia for it if they had trains that used tubular 3 rail track when they were a child. However, even as a child of four or five, the appearance of that third rail in my Marx layout bothered me, I knew that real trains only had two rails.,

 

For many years, I couldn't stand looking at that third rail in an O gauge layout, and would only consider two-rail O model trains. Recently, however, I have come to accept it as a trade-off for it's advantages when it comes to wiring a layout with track features like reverse loops and Wyes, and the plug-and-play aspect of today's three-rail trains. But still, I certainly don't appreciate that third rail for it's appearance, and I have to force myself to look beyond it when viewing a nicely scenicked layout.

 

Bill in FtL

I can honestly say that the 3rd rail wouldn't bother me if I could build the so-called dream layout in O scale. Such a layout would feature scale sized, highly detailed steam diesel and electric locos and rolling stock negotiating large radius curves on a large layout, with lots of scratch built structures and realistic scenery.

 

I don't have that kind of room, i don't have the money for those big expensive locos, and I have very little modeling ability, other than a reasonable skill level at painting and decaling.

So I stick with 2-rail, sharp curves, small locos and 40 and 50' rolling stock, and streetcars.

 

Jeff C

Years ago I went to a hobby shop dealing in O scale.  I asked the guy behind the counter if they had 2-rail.  Well, the look from him was like I had 3 heads, in a stern or rather defensive voice, he said, "We don't deal in 2-rail."  Then he was telling me that most people were buying 3-rail.  I did not want to debate, I left and did not go back. 

I respect 3rd-railers, and enjoy seeing their work, but he did not respect my choice.

Whatever rail, enjoy, whether craftsman or collector, etc.

 

 

There will always be those who can ignore that which irritates others.

It's neither here nor there for me, especially once I started acquiring locomotives and rolling stock that dwarfed the rails themselves (i.e. scale sized)

---PCJ

Where's my man Christopher?

He's probably busy actually building a layout.

He set me straight a while back with one statement.

"If you don't like the looks of the third rail now, you never will!"

 or somethin' like that.

 How about his "it's hard to hide an elephant"!

That three rail layout above is beautiful. Great scenery can draw the eyes away. It got better with modern track than the old tubular.

 It's those darn couplers, gaps, and flanges that really bug me anyways. The O hi-rail coupler matches in size to the ones used in G scale. Those are oversized in G scale!!

When I was a kid my local "modelling club" AKA "Cub Scouts" buddies all scoffed at the idea of a third rail. Even as 8 year olds we joked that "Lionel had a training rail". When the options for having a MRR were Lionel or nothing I can understand going with it, but as soon as more realistic options came along a line was drawn between not-so realistic toys and realistic as possible models. In my personal opinion a third rail on a model train layout looks every bit as realistic as this:

 

 

That being said I do understand the draw of 3 rail, whether it be nostalgia or collector appeal, etc. and I say to each his own. The issue is that in every one of these discussions some 3 rail guys will come along and proclaim that 3 rails look "realistic" and such because the rest of the scenery looks great and it simply isn't the case. I could put a really cool outfit on that 3 eyed GI Joe, and no matter how cool he looked otherwise, the only thing that would catch my eye would be the third eye, and the same goes for a model railroad.

 

 

Owen, How dare you compare our trains to "The Great 3-Eyed Joe"

 

Honestly, I first got into 3-rail because I thought (1) 2-rail was way too expensive, (2) the wasn't anything readily available, (3) I didn't do my homework (a perpetual problem since grade school), and (4) I've been fortunate to get enough Seaboard Air Line stuff to keep me happy.

 

Now that I'm in it the 3rd rail doesn't bother me. (But that 3-Eyed Joe will haunt me forever )

Good thing I didn't post a picture of his three eyed girlfriend "3arbie". That might have had far reaching Freudian consequences.

I think I "SEE" what you are saying

Well, let me add that to my "flavors".  If you don't care one way or the other whether your track looks like the real thing, then 3- rail is just fine.  I approve, for your branch of the hobby.

 

So, my "flavors:

 

1- Those who like the looks of center rail track.  I heartily approve of their hobby.

2- Those who simply do not care what their track looks like.  To each his own.

3- Those who cannot stand the center rail and try to hide it - there is a cheaper, better way.

4- Those who hate the center rail, but cannot afford to switch.  I already commented on them.

I manage to run my "2-rail" layout with some Weaver and Atlas"O" using Roco 24" radius curves! I have converted a Lionel GP-9 to to 2-rail by inserting an Atlas/Roco F-9 mechanism into the Lionel underframe. My AHM Casey Jones runs around my curves with no problem. If you are selective, 2-rail "O" gauge can be done in a "small" space!

Here's one of my 2-rail layouts.... "Schiller Point", a fictitious yard just north of the real Schiller Park, Chicago IL;

Points of note:- Size: layout is 4ft wide across the front, scenic area is 4ft deep with 4ft of hidden staging beyond the bridge.
Track is handlaid, code 100 in the yard, code 148 on the main. Turnouts are two foot (24") radius.
Even my Atlas SD40 can get around those curves (but won't pull stock without derailing it).

Layouts don't have to be basement-fillers to be interesting....