2 rail vs. 3 rail ?

 

I love my Lionel scale freight cars! They are awesome

When you look at the VL BB, you're paying a lot of that money for the very fancy electronics and all the operating features.  No offense to 3rd Rail who makes some fine looking models, but they don't have a fraction of the operational features of the new BB.

 

I don't want to come off sounding like a hard ****---

3rd Rail Sunset brass models are in a hardiness scale of 1-10 for detail roughly 5-6. They are entry level brass and detail. Operation they are on the top of thier game. Although ball bearing drives are nice..

Price ranges for 3rd Rail $700-$1700

Price ranges for Key $2500-$9000

Price ranges for Kohs $4000-$9000

Yes price determines number of hits with the soldiering gun and research finish and performance.

Don't even begin to compare the Vision Line products to a high end hand made brass import from Korea, Switzerland, or Japan. Or hand made here in the US by pro builders.

Two entirely different kinds of products were discussing here. Not even worth comparing. Only the uneducated would assume otherwise. This is why I post all these photos of these fine brass pieces. To reveal to the majority that will never own or be able to appreciate the fine scale brass model. Simply based on production numbers less than 5 at times a model will disappear into a collection and never be seen again. 

Not an opinion

 

Interesting and civil thread.  I'd like to reiterate the point Bob Turner makes - there is no reason why 2 rail locomotives couldn't negotiate the same minimum radus as 3 rail models if similar compromises were made - all without that prominent center rail. 

 

Imagine where O gauge would be today if in 1946 Lionel decided to switch to 2 rail O gauge around the same time Flyer switched to 2 rail S.  My first train was headed by an American Flyer 3 rail O gauge 3/16" scale PRR K5 - thus my SPF affliction, and perhaps why I can live with 5' track gauge. 

 

I can recall three unsuccessful attempts to mass market O gauge 2 rail in the US.  In the 50's Kusan produced rolling stock and 2 rail tubular track for a few years. Then around 1970 AHM imported a line of plastic locomotives and rolling stock manufactured in Italy by Rivarossi with fair detail but weak drive trains.  A year or two later Atlas in partnership with Austrian based Roco produced a line of 1:48 dimensioned equipment capable of running on 24" radius (dare I say O-48) 2 rail sectional track.  Without the market strength of Lionel, all ceased production within a very few years.  If the War Babies and Baby Boomers had  2 rail Lionel under the tree, we'd be laughing our head off about anyone other than tinplate collectosr running 3 rail trains in the 21 century.  The Lionel heritage continues to be both a curse and a blessing for O scalers .

 

 

Ed Rappe

 

I still look through new Lionel and MTH catalogs to see what I can adopt for use on my railroad.  The next candidates for me are Lionel's PRR GLa twin hoppers (Kadee mounting pads) and MTH's PFE R40-26 plug door reefer.  I hope Lionel doesn't mess up the body details like they did with the roof on their PRR round roof box cars .

 

Why not have both? I asked Scott Mann to put 2 rail wheels on a 3 rail TMCC Canadian Pacific D-10. He agreed and it will arrive on Fri. They even put blind center drivers on so I can operate this engine on the exact same radius as the 3 rail model.  AFAIK I will have the only 2 rail CP D-10 with TMCC/RailSounds/Smoke that will run on 27"r curves if needed. :-) To say I'm a little excited is an understatement.

 

Dealing with 3rd Rail is a pleasure. Scott really goes above and beyond. Try calling Lionel and asking them to convert an engine to 2 rail and see what they say.

 

 

In this case 3rd Rail makes 3 rail and 2 rail versions of the engine. They simply swapped out wheels/axles for me with the exception of the blind driver which they were able to insulate somehow. I'll know more when it arrives.

In answer to a question non-driving wheels on steam locomotives (leading, trailing, tender trucks) are typically insulated with a small non-conducting bushing between the wheel and the axel on one side.  Large diameter driving wheels typically have a cast spoked center with machined tires pressed on around the perimeter.  On one side the driver center is turned to a slightly smaller diameter to allow space for a paper thin non conducting material which insulates the center from the tire.

 

If Sunset has spare 2 rail drivers and wheels for a locomotive the conversion is relatively simple.  When 2 rail replacemeets are not available, a capable machinist can turn the 3 rail drivers on a lathe to remove the deep flanges and tread.  Then he will machine a new set of tires and carefully press them on, insulating one side.  Joe Foehrkolb is well recognized for his performing this service at a reasonable fee.

 

What fun!  I think I would like to return to the Lionel VL Big Boy discussion.  I am in possession of the Lionel FEF and the 4-12-2.  Both will ultimately be 2-railed, and the guts will be pulled out.  I guess I shall never hear Vision Line sounds, and I am allergic to smoke anyway.

 

All that said, do not knock these new die cast scale models too much.  Mine sat next to a USH FEF for a long time on the bookshelf, and it would be difficult for me to assert the USH was a better model.  From photos of the Lionel Cab Forward ans Big Boy, the only areas that could stand improvement other than the 3-rail aspects are the rods and valve gear.

 

I do agree with a lot of the above - I would rather have the Sunset Big Boy - an absolutely stunning piece - than the new Lionel at twice the price.  I have mistaken the Sunset Cab Forwards for well painted PSC models.  There is simply no limit to what is available in 2-rail, and the prices are indeed comparable, if not somewhat lower.

 

But if a modeler likes the center rail, I say go for it.  There are many truly spectacular 3-rail scale layouts, realistic right down to the ballast where it joins the outer portion of the ties.  If you can ignore the track, they are better than a lot of 2-rail pikes, including mine.

Nicely written Bob!

"Like!"

I agree, well written Bob. That is my pet peeve as well with the VL locos. The rods and valve gear and the height of the pilot. I can fix the pilot and put scale wheels on the engine and trailing trucks, as well as, attach whatever additional detail that is missing, but improving the rods and valve gear is a tough proposition meaning hours of fabrication.

 

I don't understand why Lionel and MTH do not provide these solutions for their outstanding products. I can ignore the too big rivets, but not the valve gear.

 

As for 3 rail track I am all but making the 3rd rail disappear and it will disappear permanently when I can go to battery power.

 

Anyway, I love it all, 3 rail or two rail.

Hi Ron,

 

You bring up something that I have been thinking about lately. Since the Lionel Big Boy has been getting such great reviews, I assumed the rods and running gear were done well. In the past I had gone back and forth on whether to get a Lionel Y6b as an example, but the rods and running gear are about as bad as it gets. I'm guessing they'll be the same on the new Y6b.

Chris you've been drinking from the Lion's Cool Aid again-  ;-)

They are amazing for what they are however, they are designed to run on 3' high rail that is 4.5" too wide of gauge.

It seems like a 3 rail thing- they do 99.3% spot on then there is this huge but obvious thing that just ruins it.

Right you are Ed. Joe converted a K-Line Hudson for me and if I didn't know any better I would swear it came that way from the factory. He did a fantastic job.

 

The one and only thing that made me switch to 2 rail was the center rail. Things such as the drive gear on steam locomotives, extra large flanges, and the lobster claws didn't bother me at all. It was just that every time I looked at the prototype whether in real life or pictures the center rail really bothered me.

 

What I did dislike when I was in 3 rail was how difficult it was to get cars to couple up. Maybe things are better now but back then I had to ram cars together at 25 SMPH to get them to couple. The other thing that bothered me was swinging pilots on diesels and the shortened hand rails that go with them. 

 

Every person has different things that "bother" them. Each person must make their own choices so that they will enjoy the hobby their own way. As I've often said there's no right or wrong way to go about it. 3 rail or 2 rail it's all good.

 

By the way Eric, your math is slightly off. That should be 3.5". 60"(5')-56.5"(4' 8.5")=3.5".

Yeah - the gauge problem is what bothers me most about O Scale.  I think they have the same problem in larger live steam and that stuff loosely referred to as G Scale.

 

But as they say, if something bothers you, either fix it or stop worrying about it.  I choose to fix it.

I couldn't have said it any better!

 

Everyone has their own sliding scale of what compromises they are willing to deal with. The thing that bothered me in S scale was a group of "scale" modelers who would look down their noses at "Hi-Rail" modelers. The term "scale" is thrown about so frequently that you have to look at what context it is being used. Unless you are modeling in one of the Proto scales (Proto:48,Proto:64,Proto:87, etc...) then you are accepting modeling compromises. Even then you still have some compromises. So how can you tell a fellow modeler that they are inferior because their compromises are more egregious than your compromises? Makes no sense. Some model railroaders tend to like to prove how knowledgeable they are though I guess.

 

My philosophy? WHO CARES.... I Love trains. Never met one I didn't like I personally came to the point that I didn't want to look at the 3rd rail anymore and I like using Kadee couplers because they make operation so much easier. They look better to my eye too. I would never look down on anyone for modeling in 3 rail though. I personally think as a whole 3 railers probably have more fun. I can also respect people who only collect the best examples of the finest brass. I have HO friends that are more interested in operating like a prototypical railroad than they are in the trains themselves. To each their own... That's what is so great about this hobby. In my opinion of course. I am a little on the fringe admittedly Running 2 rail equipment in a 3 rail footprint...

 

 

Coupling hasn't changed much a strong speed is still needed but isn't QUITE so bad if coupling into a cut of cars 5 or more in the cut.Al Hummel

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The one and only thing that made me switch to 2 rail was the center rail. Things such as the drive gear on steam locomotives, extra large flanges, and the lobster claws didn't bother me at all. It was just that every time I looked at the prototype whether in real life or pictures the center rail really bothered me. What I did dislike when I was in 3 rail was how difficult it was to get cars to couple up. Maybe things are better now but back then I had to ram cars together at 25 SMPH to get them to couple. The other thing that bothered me was swinging pilots on diesels and the shortened hand rails that go with them.  Every person has different things that "bother" them. Each person must make their own choices so that they will enjoy the hobby their own way. As I've often said there's no right or wrong way to go about it. 3 rail or 2 rail it's all good. By the way Eric, your math is slightly off. That should be 3.5". 60"(5')-56.5"(4' 8.5")=3.5".   View This Reply
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Phil and Jonnyspeed,

 

I'd agree, although I have not seen anyone who has posted anything to the contrary on this thread. 

Being critical of models is different than criticizing people. The two are often MISTAKENLY tied together, though.

I have a two rail and a three rail layout, so I can make direct comparisons. One thing that bothers me about the three rail is the noise level of the consist, and I think it originates at the flanges and the third rail pickups on the locomotives. Two rail is very quiet in comparison. Having a swinging pilot bobbing around the layout is another turn off, as is the size of the three rail couplers and therefore the coupled distance between cars. Some of the three rail guys have taken a middle ground, running cars on three rail with 2 rail wheelsets and Kadee couplers. I would do that but at this time my Atlas 3 rail turnouts do not permit reliable operation using two rail wheelsets. There are of course errors on specific locomotives, but there are errors on two rail locomotives also. The advent of smoke and sound on 3 rail has migrated to 2 rail, and especially the sound is great. The production quantities of three rail engines has permitted more reliable two rail engines, so this is also a plus. There should be a lot more potential candidates for 2 rail, especially those who favor diesels. The minimum curve radius of a four axle diesel in 2 rail and 3 rail are a lot closer, and that would favor those who are planning layouts with smaller radii. I think that the "best that we can expect" would be for both two and three rail models to achieve the level of detail that most HO now has.

My opinion......

Chris is on to something.  I admire what a lot of 3-railers have done.  I do not understand how they can overlook the track and still demand such extermely high fidelity to scale elsewhere, but that is my problem, and decidedly not theirs.

 

I quite agree - nobody on this thread is looking down their nose at folks with a center rail.  It is a hobby!  Enjoy it the way you want.

     I grew up sharing an A.C. Gilbert layout with two brothers. Two Rail "S Gauge" I started my present layout in 1983. At that time it was hard to find American Flyer and my local hobby shop was Lionel and all the local train shows were all about Lionel.

     I was sold on Lionel, if I had to start today I would go American Flyer, by Lionel. That will give you two rails. Good Luck