2 Railers, how do you do it?

2 Rail is all over the place. Atlas is off the shelf 2 rail and MTH and Weaver makes their own 2 rail trucks to convert theirs. Even Lionel is easier then it use to be, just look at what Erik and some of these guys are doing on these threads. As far as engines IMHO, Steam is 3rd Rail, and diesel is Atlas. You can go higher end if you want but these are RTR and easy to get. I personally see no reason for myself to bother with "3 rail scale" , IMHO.

I've stayed with 3 rail scale, which means I pull 2 rail rolling stock with 3 rail locos because the Lionel TMCC is so reliable and relatively easy to upgrade older locomotives with Lionel's ERR tmcc products and railsounds.

I would suggest you view the black diamond 3 rail videos on line and Norm Charbanough's videos for 3 rail and then check out some good 2 rail videos before you choose.

Where is your focus gonna be and how much time and effort in detailing are you into. It's all fun and just day dreaming and planning for what you want to create is a joy.

Good Luck,

Ron H

Besseemer Sam,

Congratulations on getting into this great hobby and joining the forum. I didn't find your email address in your profile, but have a lot of information...too much to list here that will help you in your focus. Contrary to popular belief there is much product available to 2 rail and today it is easier than ever to get started. If you contact me off list, I will even share my copy of an o scale magazine that will open the door to many 2 rail sources and ideas that will help in your search for the best way to go.

Promoting the hobby,

Jeb Kriigel

Mega-Steam

Proto-Locos, LLC

Proud sponsor of this forum

protolocos4u@aol.com

One of the forum sponsors specializes in MTH 2-rail, take a look on the main forum page.

Most if not all 3-rail rolling stock can be converted to 2-rail by swapping trucks.  3-rail engines are harder to convert than rolling stock to 2-rail, but there's folks on here that can do it for you, plus there's plenty of 2-rail locos around.

Lionel and MTH aren't the only game in town.  Atlas, 3rd Rail, Weaver, and a few others also offer 2-rail equipment.  Some dealers even ask if you want 2 or 3-rail when you order.

All this "wisdom" from a 3-rail-scale guy, go figure

Yeah, not many engines are out there!  (I probably bought a lot of them!)

That's why I have to build another engine yard. I keep getting deals on them! (maybe 60 of them?) Two rail is available when you look for them. They are about the same price now days too. If you like the look of the track, go for it!!

holding a siding.....

UP in the mix now...

Choosing which format to use can be a tad more involved. 

It can be helpful to balance the RR area with the style of RRing you wish to model.

Big engines really need to have wider radius or bigger diameter curves to avoid looking out of place. 

Some may say to go three rail if your available space is on the small side and list of engines are on the large side.  Many disagree.  It needs to be your experienced call.

IMO, the most important call is to choose the style of railroad you wish to model based in part on the space you have to build.

Due to my irregular shaped 2k sq ft basement I went branch line because a long passenger train would be going into a curve while the tail end was just coming out of a curve. 

Big engines and long trains can visually shrink your layout's appearance.  A three foot long engine on a three foot radius curve is a hard picture to overlook.

I choose two rail for appearance sake alone. 

As far as available stock forget the average hobby store. 

Trust me on this,  there are a lot of engines and cars out there, more than our wives know anything about.  We two railers have so many boxes hidden away that I am sure that any of us could sell you what ever you need and still have too many.

I can say just don't go on a buying spree as you will waste a lot of money. I had started 2 rail because I wanted some special beautiful engines in that size that were made in brass at the time. So that made me a 2 railer from the start even though I was just collecting at the time.

The hard part came later when one discovers the several ways to power, TMCC, DC, DCC, DCS and what track each one takes to run. What is available, the size of ones space to develop a layout, and the cost to bring everthing to life.

I got caught between a rock as I had a few brass diesels,DC, which pushed me in that direction, however, I was buying  quality Atlas products and they were also DC. Then came the great recession and Atlas slowed its imports of diesels and so I traded into MTH but that ment either DC or DSC. I also at that time was thinking of running a few engines together  and DC wasn't the way to go and so I put some of my engines aside and used the MTH ones I had bought with DCS. and purchesed that power supply. and about 6 engines.

MTH has now invested into DCC on their new stuff and so I am now back to square one as I like the DCC method.

Then there is the space ? as how big a layout you can have. 2 rail with it fixed pilots means you need a lot of room for  engines with fixed pilots to turn where as 3 rail with it swinging pilots allows for smaller room layouts.

So, as I see it, you have several decissions to make B4 you spend a dollar.

-Planning a layout to the size of your space

-What is available or what was available you want to model.

-How do you want to power it. Rememeber who made the trains and what they used to run those trains. Lionel- TMCC, MTH- DCS, Atlas-DC=DCC. etc

Today I would think 3 rail scale the way to go as more is available and one just needs to get past the 3rd rail and swing pilots.

Phill

Those are my thoughts adn experiences.

I have to disagree with TimDude when he says,"Diesel is Atlas." 

Atlas uses the famous or infamous "China Drive" which is 2 vertical motors over the trucks.  The gearing is not as low as it might be for prototypical operation. 

Sunset, on the other hand, listened to the 2-railers and uses one larger horizontal motor.  Also, Sunset diesels come with Kadees attached, while Atlas has still (to my knowledge) not even taken the strong suggestion to space its coupler holes for an easy conversion to Kadees.

Just my $0.02.

Ed

Norm's O Scale has a large inventory of 2 rail Atlas in stock.    He is very reliable as a mail-order dealer and I have bought from at O scale shows.     I think he is a sponsor.    http://www.normsoscaletrains.com/

Public Delivery track has a pretty good selection of 2 rail diesels from Atlas, MTH and Sunset GGD.     http://www.publicdeliverytrack.com/servlet/StoreFront

Caboose Stop Hobbies also has quite a bit of Atlas 2 rail and 3 rail.   http://www.caboosestophobbies.com/

Most of these also have 3 rail stuff and some have steamers and brass.

If you go to the March Meet in Chicago (Lombard) on March 13 you will probably 1000 locos in one room for sale, most 2 rail and all vintages and mfgs.     Look for March Meet on  your search engine.

TMCC, DCS, and others work on 2-rail track.  If you know how to install these in older models, you also know how to install them in 2- rail.  There is simply no three- phase power system in model trains - it is all two-wire.

Radius of curves is only related to how many compromises you are willing to make with your models - it has nothing to do with number of rails.

Your decision really should come down to this: If you like the looks of three-rail track and switches, choose 3-rail.  If you like the looks of more realistic track, choose 2- rail.  

It isn't an easy choice, and 2-rail availability can be extremely spotty, especially if you are modeling a specific prototype.

You also have to be prepared to buy right when the product comes out, or risk not getting it, which isn't easy for many of us with real world budgets.

You also need lots of room to model in 2-rail, or you need to be happy running small engines and short freight cars in your limited space.

Let's say that you have the bucks to buy a nice 3rd Rail 4-8-4 steam loco in 2-rail. You are going to need at least a 56" radius curve to run that engine--that's radius, not diameter, so if you are wanting to do a loop style layout you need a layout space that is well over 10' wide to get that loco to turn a 180 degree corner. The same loco in 3-rail will easily do a 060 curve, which is a 30" radius curve. That's a big difference, and how you feel about that will tell you a lot about what's important to you.

Yes, the 2-rail loco can be modified to run on smaller radius curves, and if you enjoy filing and cutting on $1200.00 locomotives then you will be in hog heaven. If you run large2-rail equipment on small radius curves you will be modifying everything. It will become a big part of your model railroading hobby.

Some people can do it, some people can't, and you need to know which modeler you are before taking the plunge. 

How much space do you have? Do you like to tinker with your trains, or do you want them to run on your curves right out of the box? How much do you enjoy hitting train meets and hunting around for product? 2-rail is out there but it has to be searched out.

Jeff C

Even though O-gauge isn't quite correct for 1:48 scale, I still prefer 2-rail O-gauge to the

3-rail version on the basis of improved appearance. I've been able to find plenty of 2-rail equipment on e-Bay (with only a few disappointments) and through occasional attendance at O Scale West and the Chicago meet. I think you have to accept, however, that happiness with 2-rail requires a higher tolerance for delayed gratification than 3-rail.

My very simple layout has large curves designed originally to visually complement big Rio Grande articulated steam engines, but I've been selling those engines recently and moving more toward F units from Atlas (with rebuilt drives) and Sunset, which all look really great on these same large curves. In my opinion, even though you can't have as much O-scale equipment in a given area as with a smaller scale, 2-rail "O" more than makes up for this with its heft and its very reliable operation and its realistic appearance. Also, it's easier to work with than a smaller scale as I approach 70.

O Scale 2 rail is electrically exactly like HO 2 rail.    You need to consider that you use more amperage in most cases, but the experience, knowledge, and background all apply.     

One of the big advantages is that DCC is easy, available, and not manufacturer specific.    Very heavy duty decoders for O scale (NCE D408SR) can be had for $50 on the street.    Usually less in batches.    This is motor control with about 6-8 additional functions for what ever you want to control.    Sound decoders cost about twice that.   ALL DCC decoders if they are NMRA compliant, work with ALL DCC control systems.   So you can pick the throttles you like and use the decoders from some other source.    And there are hundreds of deales selling DCC components.   There are also many of the same ones that will do the installs in older locos.   

Another big advantage is that you can ask the local guys in your area no matter what scale, if you have DCC questions.    There seem to be users of all the major systems in every area.    When I first started, I had some basic questions in the first month, and I just called some of the HO guys in my round robin group and asked them.    It was quick and easy.

"I'm new to the hobby and I currently divided between whether I fill focus more on 2 rail or 3 rail predominantly. My impression is there are few 2 rail products, mainly locomotives out there. Does anyone have any information, advice or inspiration that they can share me?"

  I suggest studying the hobby a bit before buying anything and figure out what you want to achieve. For instance do you want to build a layout with realistic scenery or are you more interested in just running toy trains or buying locos ?  Two rail O has plenty of stuff available if building a layout is the primary goal and it's easier to make realistic looking scenery when using scale size rail and 2 rails . Three rail has even more to choose from if buying locos and running trains is the goal and three rail stuff will run around much sharper curves without any need to modify it so that's a big plus if you room size is small. You might check out youtube for 2 rail and 3 rail O scale to get some idea of how each looks and what each does best......DaveB 

for me, the big thing is the radius.  there are super detailed 3 rail layouts out there, great craftsmen that work in 3 rail world.  but that 72" radius for std 2 rail sucks up a ton of room.  (you can of course run smaller radius depending on your motive power, era, passenger cars, etc)  but 72" is usually my minimum.  biggest difference for me is that radius and the space it eats up.

Another point, I have been in O Scale 2 rail for over 30 years, and I think that about 90% or more diesels will go around a 48 inch RADIUS curve and many will go much smaller, especially 4 axle.    All 40 ft cars normally handle down to about 32-36 inch radius with no problems.   Most 50ft cars will handle 36 inch.  

With steamers, the older brass such as Max Grey or USHobbies or early sunset would go around 54 inch or most 48 inch radius.   There might some exception for for big rigid frame locos.    Some of the newer brass requires larger curves although I have a friend who runs a WM 2-8-0 (the big one) on 36 inch radius with no issues.    Because of construction differences in the way the drive rods are made, diecast steamers often require much larger radius for the same size loco as brass.

A final note, body mount couplers, which are the norm in 2-rail, allow cars to stay on the track much better than the talgo mount couplers commonly used in 3-rail.  This is because an pushing or pulling forces go directly to the frame rather than onto the trucks.    It is true talgo mounts work on sharper curves, but they also restrict train length because of this. 

Likewise. There are many great models, but many of us have space limits that preclude sweeping curves. I messed around with O 2-rail for many years, both British and U.S. prototype. (Slater's kits and the 70s AHM stuff mostly, all small prototypes)

Getting decent locomotives that didn't break the bank was always the thing, but I have gone with the "good enough" philosophy and swallowed my old prejudice against 3-rail. My soft spot for old tinplate helped there. The realistic appearance of modern O scale 3-rail versus say, the more toy-like post-war stuff, makes it easy to consider the 2-rail conversions and the manufacturer's ability to now produce either. It all depends on how you feel about tighter radius and that middle rail. To each his own.

You have no Idea want you're getting into! First do not waste any money on any product until you know all the problems and advantages first. Educate yourself, go to train shows, and hang around people that like what you like. First Learn the terminology. "O Scale" and "O Gauge" are not the same thing. Though there are people who use the term incorrectly because of lack of knowledge. O Scale is the 2-rail side of O and pretty much represents the prototype of the real railroads. The O gauge is the "TOY" or 3-rail side of O the Europeans and most others in other scales think is a "joke". There are even 3-railer who say they do not notice the third rail. Well folks they are long over dew for glasses or they need to stand further that 3 feet from the layout. NOTE: Once said: "People trying to live in days gone by before they die" or influenced by the elderly of a close relative or friend. I am not demeaning anyone, just stating the obvious, that so many deign. There are great locomotives out there with each have their problems. Atlas switchers are a must have, There rest of Atlas China drives ( 2 vertical motors over the trucks that sit too high. Lionel does not make 2-rail locomotives ( Atlas will no longer get any more orders from me with china drives as others as said here on the forum. And their sound is low end of the list of sound systems out there. Now mth, does some 2-rail, but they have detail problems like the handrails on a stick under the walkways. Also their Control system is proprietary. Sunset models has now taken the lead in the locomotive user friendly race. ( Like a good stock - "recommend buy"!) Bottom line - How much time do you want to run trains, or sit at the word bench?

I doesn't matter what scale, there is NEVER enough room. If you want to model the prototype, then 2-rail is it. If you like the size and have room to do at least something in ) Scale. Then go for IT!

 When I first stated is O Scale I never thought there would be so much available.

Stephen

I agree that 72" radius would be great. I think almost all of my mainline is closer to 60". There's a lot of curves much smaller than that. All my equipment runs on it. I can't agree that someone should prefer premium radius on a two rail layout and then settle for much tighter on three rail and say that's OK?? The same equipment on two or three rail still looks the same. How can some ridiculous little O30 or O40 somethings be even considered on any mainline??

 The minute I see a huge pilot gap and the stairs moving on a modern diesel on curves, I think of OLD SCHOOL tubular stuff. Only in three rail O would it be allowed!

Dear Bessemer Sam,

    Welcome to the 2 rail O scale fraternity. I have been in O scale 2rail for 30 years and besides the heft of the models, I enjoy the camaraderie between the 2 Rail scale community.

    My business partner,Rich Yoder and I have been hosting a 2 Rail O Scale meet in Strasburg,Pa. 3 times per year for the past 4 years. Our next meet is 04/18/2015 followed by 08/08/2015 and 10/24/2015.

    Since you live in Pennsylvania,you are within a 2/2.5 hour drive to the show. You will find many/many items in all price ranges to fill your needs.

    You will also be able to meet/greet many of the OGR Forum members that have already responded to you.

    Tom Thorpe is truly THE person to talk to on layout design and tweaking.

    Dave Friedlander is a award winning modeler and one of our youngest O scalers. He knows his stuff with DCC and electronics.

    Ed Kelly and Ed Rappe are currently building their O scale empires to seek advise.

If I see by your byline you may  live in the Western Pa. area. 

   There are so many great little intrastate  railroads Montour,Western Allegheny,B&LE,etc

which can provide you hours of modeling and research fun.

   Once again, welcome to the 2 Rail world. 

   Regards, John P.Dunn Sr. Scale2Rail Promotions

I'll second John Dunn's advice about the Strasburg Show.

That and the Cherry Valley show.

In fact, the term O Gauge refers only to the distance between running rails, regardless

of whether the system is two rail or three rail. O Gauge only means an inside distance between railheads of 1.25" (too broad for an accurate 1:48 model of the track itself).

The typical two-rail O gauge modeler operates equipment built accurately to a scale of 1:48, but still does on O gauge track, which represents track gauged at 5'-0" in 1:48 (or O Scale). 

So, both three-rail and two-rail layouts (except Proto48 examples) are properly referred to as O Gauge with respect to track gauge. What differentiated them pretty clearly in the past was that most three-rail equipment did not adhere strictly or consistently to 1:48 (1/4" = 1 ft) scale, whereas two-rail equipment strove to be consistently accurate 1:48 models (O Scale).

It seems as though that particular distinction is becoming less significant, as manufacturers offer more and more three-rail equipment that is very close to being accurate 1:48 scale: hence the current term "3-rail scale."

But all this equipment is still operating on O Gauge track, whether two-rail or three-rail (unless one is using Proto48 standards). One way that O Gauge modelers who were concerned with achieving an accurate overall scale representation of both track and equipment dealt with this in the past was to continue to use available O Gauge track components, but to build their models to 17/64" scale, a strategy that had the effect of reducing 5'-0" O Gauge (at 1:48 scale) to something closer to 4'-8-1/2" (at 17/64 scale).

The gauge-versus-scale issue continues to bedevil our 1:48 world! 

I am no expert on all this scale , gauge,  proto. as if it looks good to me i am happy. Out West where we don't have the population and concentration as the NE we find fewer O modelers. We don't have basement in the numbers in the East. We got 2 car garages 22x22 and lucky if we get 1/2 that.

Glancing over the post I didn't see any mention of what you want to model. Are you present day, do you just like diesels, and what railroad makes you druel.

When you know what engines you want to run and the railroad then you can look and see what is available to you. I am a BIG up FAN and they seem ot always hav big units but doesn't mean I can't just run some switchers and stage a few monsters in the background for looks.

I also only have a 10'6" wide room so my 2 rail has to work in tight spaces. i try and hide trains turning at the ends of the oval behind embankments, hills, trees,  and buildings. I am trying to keep the long runs open to seeing what is happening.

The old 3 rail used to be on silver colored track and the middle rail was always in view. Today these manufactures have blacked the middle rail to help putit out so sight.Cudos. Like noise, soon,  you will put the middle out of mind like the airplanes that fly over our house or the grandfather clock that clangs away on the hr. Maybe!

Like mentioned several times before it comes down to space and the available models in the road you wish to model. UP gets a lot of models as does CSX,NW, but if you go with some railroad that has gone under over the years you will find it a tuff road/railroad. SO do some digging into what has been produced that you may want to find as with this scale half the fun is the hunt and the other half the find.

 Oh, and since you are new I don't want you to be confused about SUNSET models that produce models under the name 3rd rail and so don't be confused thinking they are all 3 rail models. I have bought several beautiful 2 rail models from them and maybe going after their announced F units.

Phil

I knew the O Gauge debate would come up. In fact if you go to hobby shows 2-rail is advertised as "O scale Show" The 3-rail shows are advertised as O gauge shows or TCA. 2-rail has always thru history been considered O Scale. Don't believe me, go to all the old mags. Even the OST Stands for O Gauge Trains, meaning 3 rail publication. If Gauge was both, there would be a lot more 2-rail articles.

Don't let people serve you a bucket of dirty water. No, O Scale is not perfect (4 inch track difference) and I am hoping people will change that. But 3-Rail is still TOY with a black or brown metal line between the rails.

By the way, you may get used to not hearing the planes overhead, but it doesn't mean they are not there. Those that come to your home sure will be annoyed. I hate it when I am on a 2 rail forum and I have to continually look at 3-rail forum items. I think, "Heck of a great 3-rail scale layout". Now if they would get rid of that freaking eyesore of a third rail It would have been worth all that work. Never could understand why someone would do all the work to make scale layout and not change something as simple as the TRACK! Stephen

I completely agree; if you say "O gauge trains" most people will think 3-rail, and if you say "O scale" or "O-scale models" most people will think two-rail (the "O Scale West" meet, for instance). 

One big thing to be aware of is that because all of the wheels on locomotives have flanges, plus equipment has body-mounted couplers, you need to be judicious in your choice of equipment so that it can operate reliably on the curves you have. 2-rail requires curves that start out at sizes where 3-rail curve sections end -- roughly 36" radius (O-72), though some equipment will operate on a radius as small as 24" (O-48). Steam locomotives can be tricky as an MTH Hudson can negotiate 36" radius (O-72) reliably, but one from another manufacturer may require 52" radius (O-104)

For rolling stock that's ready to go, there's Atlas and Weaver. All of their 3-rail rolling stock is essentially 2-rail that's adapted to 3-rail via trucks and couplers, so converting their 3-rail rolling stock is simple.

Another locomotive alternative is Proto-3 equipped MTH "scale-wheeled". These locomotives can operate on 2-rail DC conventional with limited sound & features, or under DCC or MTH-proprietary DCS with full sound and features. The diesels have some shortcomings as they're 2-rail versions of 3-rail locomotives, but these are minor (my opinion).

 I run 2 large loops, one 2 rail and one 3 rail..prefer the 2 rail,track is quieter and stays cleaner and i if i have a derail rarely is there any shorting out at the track vs my 3 rail.

I also like the convertibility of an MTH premier 3 rail diesel to 2 rail using there wheelset 2 rail conversions and still retaining the remote couplers.But.... my 3 rail railking engines offer bang for the buck,detail,ditch lights,remote couplers and incredible sound all controlled with MTH DCS. About 1 minute 32 seconds into the video an east bound NS consist on 3 rail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ_WjCrtmgk

Hey Matt. Tell me more about these!  

( Matt's our leader!)

If i'm a leader, the hobby's in real trouble. My favorite demonstration is this pair of videos of my scale-wheeled MTH Proto-3 GE ES44AC Hybrid Demonstrator. The first is in 3-rail mode under DCS at the club (consisted with itself from another time). The second is in 2-rail mode under DCC at a train show. Full features were accessible in both modes.

My first venture into scale-wheeled MTH engines was a pair of U25B's, which I still run regularly at the club. They're Proto-2 so I'd have to be mindful of polarity under DCS and they're not DCC-compatible. They're actually on my list of locomotives that I'd consider upgrading to Proto-3 when the upgrades become available.

Running in 3-rail mode under DCS

Willygee, nice shot in the yard with passing trains. SO much smoke. Do you carry an oxygen mask.

 This is a reason not to have 3 rail sliding frames. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a6WO3B6ojo

Try not to think "train table" when you think of layout planning.   You get much much more square footage of layout if you build around the walls on narrower benchwork.   think small platforms and shelves where you want the track to go rather than build a table and then figure out where to put track.

I will try an example.    If you have a 10 ft square room.    If you build a layout in the middle of the room and leave 2 1/2 feet all around it for access.   2 1/2 on each side adds up to 5 feet which leaves 5 feet for the layout.   This applies in both directions creating a 5 ft square layout that is 25 square feet.

Now if you simply reverse that and build a 2 1/2 ft wide shelf around the outside and leave the 5 ft square opening in the middle you get much more layout.   The layout would have 2 sections 10 ft long by 2 1/2 ft plus 2 sections 5 feet long by 2 1/2 feet connecting them on the sides.    Each 10 by 2.5 ft section is 25 sq feet and you have 2.   Each 5 by 2.5 ft section is 12.5 sq ft and you have 2.   Add up 25+25+12.5+12.5 and you get a whopping 75 sq feet of layout on the around the walls version.    So the around the walls version is 3 times as big as the table in the middle given the same room and aisle space requirements etc.   

This example is simplified down to ignore doors etc and make the math simple, but it tries to illustrate that going around the outside of the room has major advantages.

This is not an accurate statement.  It stands for O Scale Trains.

mwb: I stand corrected. Thanks. I was thinking OG(Gauge)R not OST. Stephen

Thank you!

Wow, lots of opinions and advice. I am in 2 Rail O Scale and have been for close onto 20 years. BUT, 2-Rail O scale is pretty much a dying hobby! Mostly old guys like me who still love to build models and tinker with brass engines. 3-Rail seems to be a younger persons hobby. I love 2-Rail O scale but I've seen some really well done 3-Rail layouts on YouTube. It seems in 3-Rail one uses commercially available equipment and focuses one's modeling skills on the scenery, which is great if that's your thing. And, of course, these new steam locomotives from Lionel and MTH are absolutely GREAT! Makes me jealous :-)

You're only as old as the woman you feel,