2021 Lionel Legacy GP30s Smoke Units Not Producing Any Smoke

I doubt you have too much fluid in these units.  If fluid is blocking the path you won't get any smoke.

I would gently blow down the stack to clear any fluid that might be blocking the stack.  These units should easily hold 20 drops.  They also need primed so at the start I typically add around 30, others will say more, but 30 seems good for me using it the first time.

Hi Marty

I tried blowing down the stack. I forgot to add that to my details, but I just updated my details to reflect that. It did not solve the problem. Honestly, more and more I am thinking that there is not enough smoke fluid in the units - but I am afraid to add more because if they are overfilled I would only make it worse. I just cannot imagine that I overfilled them with a total of 22 drops over 3 days.

I have the R&N 2531.  Did you gently remove the grate for the smoke unit to be filled.  Then gently blow down the stack as MARTY a stated.  My unit also didn’t smoke until about the second lap around the layout.  If you are getting fan motor noise and no smoke there must be the smoke fluid batting blocking the exit hole.  Maybe open it up and check that?  Good luck.

Hi laz57

Yes - I did remove the grating and I blew down the stack. I forgot to mention that in my original details, but I just added it. My thing is - I have two locomotives here doing the same exact thing. Is it possible that they both have batting blocking the exit hole? I just don't know. Seems improbable, but I guess nothing is impossible.

Here's just a cautionary statement. I would avoid blowing down the stack. Yes, I know that has been standard advice for some time. The problem is, if that resistor is hot and you blow down the stack, that could potentially blow boiling liquid or hot vapor into the tiny plastic impeller fan. These recent modern Lionel engines are all using the same basic fan blades, and I have had to repair over a dozen recently melted sets. Even worse, it could jam the fan motor when those blades distort and melt.

If you have to blow down the stack to clear a typical fluid bubble, do it only when the smoke unit is not only off, but also has been allowed to cool in the off state for some time.

Again, this is just cautionary, but from someone who has repaired more of these than I thought was possible and saw the same problem over and over, what I know is the plastic used on these fans can distort or melt. Blowing down the stack appears to be one way this could have happened in the damaged units. I then had to change my own habits and tell others the same to prevent damage.

It could be your needle applicator. The drops might be smaller. I'd make sure smoke is switched on in each engine. Put them on the track. Add 10 more drops. Power up and make sure smoke is turned on in the CAB2. Run a few laps and check

I would say you do not have enough fluid. Yes you should see smoke after 22 drops but over a 3 day period you have to account for evaporation.

You stated in you OP that you turned the smoke switches on after 4 or 5 months and ran the smoke units on high for 10 minutes without adding any fluid. Why would you do that?

New units need primed with a good bit of fluid (25 or 30 drops) before running the smoke units. 10 minutes on high with no fluid you could have something burnt up now.

Even if there was some fluid in from the factory it would have been dry after 4 or 5 months.

Hopefully others will chime in to help you that have better information.

Brad

Hi Vernon

Given the circumstances, I really do not think that was the issue here. These things were not smoking for an extended period of time before I did any blowing - and the blowing was gentle, not extreme. I could be wrong, but I really do not see that as the issue which is causing no smoke. The locomotives were not smoking for considerable periods of running before I tried that, and when I did it was not overboard.

@B rad posted:

I would say you do not have enough fluid. Yes you should see smoke after 22 drops but over a 3 day period you have to account for evaporation.

You stated in you OP that you turned the smoke switches on after 4 or 5 months and ran the smoke units on high for 10 minutes without adding any fluid. Why would you do that?

New units need primed with a good bit of fluid (25 or 30 drops) before running the smoke units. 10 minutes on high with no fluid you could have something burnt up now.

Even if there was some fluid in from the factory it would have been dry after 4 or 5 months.

Hopefully others will chime in to help you that have better information.

Brad

Hi Brad

Actually - I did not have the smoke unit on high initially. That was something that I raised after I added smoke fluid, so I'll have to correct that in my details.

I had excactly the same problem with my GP30. What finally made it smoke was 45 drops put in slowly. There are 2 postings about GP30 smoke issues in the past few months if you want to search those.

@Johnny Winkler posted:

I had excactly the same problem with my GP30. What finally made it smoke was 45 drops put in slowly. There are 2 postings about GP30 smoke issues in the past few months if you want to search those.

Thank you, Johnny. I will look for those postings. Just read them, thanks!

I guess you didn't believe me when I said you didn't have enough fluid...

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I guess you didn't believe me when I said you didn't have enough fluid...

Hey John - Not sure what I should do with this situation. Very puzzling. At least I was able to confirm that the fan is running and the heating element is working. (Your suggestion about the amps check was right on.)

I keep coming back to the fact that I have the same problem in both locomotives. That means something. I just think it is rare that two locomotives would have the exact same issue. I don't know if the issue is a lack of fluid.

@DILLI posted:

I don't know if the issue is a lack of fluid.

I think it is unless something else is going on now because they were run for 10 minutes with no smoke fluid. Regardless of the heat setting I'm not sure that was a good idea.

@DILLI posted:

I keep coming back to the fact that I have the same problem in both locomotives. That means something. I just think it is rare that two locomotives would have the exact same issue. I don't know if the issue is a lack of fluid.

Well, the constant here is you haven't put that much fluid in.  Since both of them do the same thing, that's where I'd start.

More Fluid

Lionel has been really packing their smoke units lately.

More Fluid

I concur with John.  You did not add enough smoke fluid from the start.  The smoke fluid wick may now be charred, but should still work.  Believe me when I say you can add up to 80 drops in a new unit with no problems.  I’ve done it with the shell off to observe the effects.  My newest Lionel engine smokes so good that it takes 40 drops on a refill with no problems.

Ron

@B rad posted:

I think it is unless something else is going on now because they were run for 10 minutes with no smoke fluid. Regardless of the heat setting I'm not sure that was a good idea.

I asked a Lionel authorized service person about this and he said that I was not wrong in initially trying to run the smoke unit without adding fluid first. These locomotives are filled with smoke fluid when they are made.

@DILLI posted:

These locomotives are filled with smoke fluid when they are made.

It's likely been a month or more from the time they were made until you removed it from the box.

On top of that. If they do add fluid from the factory it would be a minimal amount.  Otherwise it would end up over the inside of the box and on the loco during shipment.

@DILLI posted:

I asked a Lionel authorized service person about this and he said that I was not wrong in initially trying to run the smoke unit without adding fluid first. These locomotives are filled with smoke fluid when they are made.

But you stated it was 4 or 5 months after purchase  before you attempted to run smoke. There would not have been any fluid remaining.

If it were me, I’d pop the shell, take the top off the smoke unit, fluff the batting, soak the batting with as much smoke fluid as it takes, replace the top of the smoke unit, and test with the shell off.  I bet it smokes like a champ after that.  I’m 99% certain that (as others have mentioned) you still haven’t added enough fluid.

@DILLI posted:

I asked a Lionel authorized service person about this and he said that I was not wrong in initially trying to run the smoke unit without adding fluid first. These locomotives are filled with smoke fluid when they are made.

I have serviced and run a ton of new Lionel and MTH locomotives, in all cases I had to add plenty of fluid to get proper operation.  Also, my experience servicing smoke units, my standard "fill" after replacing the wick material is at least 60-70 drops of fluid, aka, two droppers of MegaSteam.  When I'm doing this with the top off the smoke unit, it's easy to see when there's too much smoke fluid, and in a standard sized smoke unit, that's not an overfill.

@B rad posted:

But you stated it was 4 or 5 months after purchase  before you attempted to run smoke. There would not have been any fluid remaining.

Brad - one of the things all of this dialogue has truly helped me do is sort out what I did, for how long, and in what order. In reflecting carefully on what I did on Saturday, I do remember that I did initially run the locomotives without adding smoke fluid just to see what would happen because I did not want an overfill situation. I did that for only about 4-5 minutes and the smoke was not on the high CAB2 setting yet. It was only after I added some fluid that I adjusted the smoke to high.

The bottom line is that I have someone who is an authorized Lionel repairman and we'll get to the bottom of it. In the end, I will have learned more about the locomotives and it will help me moving forward.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have serviced and run a ton of new Lionel and MTH locomotives, in all cases I had to add plenty of fluid to get proper operation.  Also, my experience servicing smoke units, my standard "fill" after replacing the wick material is at least 60-70 drops of fluid, aka, two droppers of MegaSteam.  When I'm doing this with the top off the smoke unit, it's easy to see when there's too much smoke fluid, and in a standard sized smoke unit, that's not an overfill.

John - It would be nice if we could somehow see how much smoke fluid we are putting in these locomotives. I would love that. I feel like the smoke operations are the most ambiguous part of running the locomotives. I even got bottles with a needle applicator to do everything with more precision and I have watched Mike Reagan's video on smoke operations. The problem is that once you insert the applicator you cannot see what you are doing. I actually use a flashlight when I put fluid in so I can at least TRY to count the drops.

There is no happy medium. If I have the applicator pretty far out of the stack, I can at least see the drops to count them; the problem is that the fluid could just run down the side of the stack. If I put the applicator down farther, it helps ensure that the fluid is landing on the batting and not just running down the side of the tack; the problem is that I can barely see what I am doing, even with a flashlight. I would love to be able to add the fluid with the top off the smoke unit!

@DILLI posted:

John - It would be nice if we could somehow see how much smoke fluid we are putting in these locomotives.

Yep, the Holy Grail of smoke unit maintenance.   As you gain experience, you develop a sense of how much fluid to have in the dropper to add, counting drop is tedious and somewhat messy as a rule.  The needle point bottles are great for clean fluid addition, but it's pretty impossible to know how much you're adding.  My choice is still the glass dropper and I just fill it to the level I know I need and then add it to the smoke unit.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yep, the Holy Grail of smoke unit maintenance.   As you gain experience, you develop a sense of how much fluid to have in the dropper to add, counting drop is tedious and somewhat messy as a rule.  The needle point bottles are great for clean fluid addition, but it's pretty impossible to know how much you're adding.  My choice is still the glass dropper and I just fill it to the level I know I need and then add it to the smoke unit.

John - you make an excellent point! I think I am going to revert to the dropper method. I still need to acquire that sense of how much fluid to allow to enter the dropper. I love these needle applicators, and in theory they seem like the cat's meow - until you actually use them. It is then, and only then, that you realize you cannot see a blasted thing.

It's simple to eyeball it, just takes a little practice.  Just take the dropper and fill it to a specific line.  Then hold it over the bottle and carefully count out the drops.  Do that a few times at different levels of liquid in the dropper and you'll have a good idea of how many drops a specific fill level is.  Pretty soon it'll become second nature to know how much fluid to add.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's simple to eyeball it, just takes a little practice.  Just take the dropper and fill it to a specific line.  Then hold it over the bottle and carefully count out the drops.  Do that a few times at different levels of liquid in the dropper and you'll have a good idea of how many drops a specific fill level is.  Pretty soon it'll become second nature to know how much fluid to add.

Sounds like a plan!

Sometimes your stuck using a dropper. Alot of diesel locomotives with 2 or more smoke stacks have a larger funnel that channels the fluid to the proper place. Needles are great if you can get straight to the batting. That's why I have several dropper sizes that range from .5 mil to a full 2 mil. I've figured out that .5 mil is around 10 drops and they are soft plastic and have a fine long tip so they get in tight places like the needles. This has helped me greatly. You can get packs of them at your local craft shop. I believe they are called pipettes.

Good luck DILLI. you will get used to it as I was in your situation not long ago learning these smoke units. I still have yet to need to open a locomotive up but I'm sure its coming soon and this forum will be great help when the time comes.

Brad

@B rad posted:

Sometimes your stuck using a dropper. Alot of diesel locomotives with 2 or more smoke stacks have a larger funnel that channels the fluid to the proper place. Needles are great if you can get straight to the batting. That's why I have several dropper sizes that range from .5 mil to a full 2 mil. I've figured out that .5 mil is around 10 drops and they are soft plastic and have a fine long tip so they get in tight places like the needles. This has helped me greatly. You can get packs of them at your local craft shop. I believe they are called pipettes.

Good luck DILLI. you will get used to it as I was in your situation not long ago learning these smoke units. I still have yet to need to open a locomotive up but I'm sure its coming soon and this forum will be great help when the time comes.

Brad

Thanks, Brad. Agreed! I am switching to the droppers (pipettes) effective immediately.

I had a a couple engines that stop smoking. I put them upside down on a old towel or paper towels for about two or three hours. That drained out any smoke fluid. Put them back on the track and added about ten drops. Took a few minutes and I did blow down the stack. It smokes fine now.Ron

PS, So if you had put too much fluid in that would drain it out.

SMOKE ISSUES RESOLVED

I wanted to update everyone who tried to help me the other day with the smoke unit operations on my 2021 Lionel Legacy Reading & Northern GP30s (#2530 and #2531). I appreciate and thank everyone who offered me help yesterday.

Mistake #1

I initially used a needle applicator to load smoke fluid and I could not see how many drops came out of the applicator. END RESULT – I was not putting anywhere near enough smoke fluid into the smoke units.

Mistake #2

I left the smoke fans running on high when I added smoke fluid and the fans were blowing the little drops right back at me. So not only was I adding way too little smoke fluid via the needle applicator, but I was also trying to add smoke fluid with the fan blowing it right back out. I now know to shut off the fan before adding smoke fluid for best results.

Bottom Line

The GPs were lacking in smoke fluid. Nothing was charred or burned. The batting looked virgin.

Reading & Northern #2531

Once I ditched the needle applicator and used the pipette/dropper to add the appropriate amount of smoke fluid, it smoked like a factory. Problem solved.

Reading & Northern #2530

This GP was not as easy. Even after using the pipette/dropper to add the appropriate amount of smoke fluid like I did for the #2531, it still did not smoke. Gunrunner John removed the GP shell and we looked at the smoke unit. First, there was an alignment issue between the roof stack opening and the funnel that drops the smoke fluid into the batting. Gunrunner John quickly corrected that. Second, the thermistor was not close enough to the batting. Gunrunner John repositioned the batting and we got #2530 smoking like a factory, just like the #2531. Problem solved.

*****A huge and special thanks to Gunrunner John!!!! Once again, he solved the problem and saved the day. (Something he has probably done thousands of times for a multitude of people.)  A huge benefit for me was that I watched everything he did and I actually learned something very important, which is priceless.

Happy endings are always encouraged. Thanks for the update.

Great that they are working.  Good little engines, nice pullers.  Enjoy!

That is great that they are working!

I hate to get off subject but DILLI can you please help me with a question about the newer GP30 Legacy model?

I created a post a week or so ago with a question about the minimum curve requirement and I got no responses so I thought I would ask hear if you dont mind.

I am running o31 curves so I never thought I could have one of these because Lionels website stated a o36 minimum requirement.

I saw one for sale on this forum and it appeared the picture of the box stated it would run on o31 curve.

Does your box sticker state that or can you or anyone here let me know?

Figured I wasn't hijacking your post since you got your issue resolved.

Thanks

Brad

@laz1957 posted:

Great that they are working.  Good little engines, nice pullers.  Enjoy!

Agreed! Thanks. My wife and I have ridden in passenger cars pulled by the #2530 and #2531 on the Lehigh Scenic Gorge Railway. I am very happy with these locomotives.

@B rad posted:

That is great that they are working!

I hate to get off subject but DILLI can you please help me with a question about the newer GP30 Legacy model?

I created a post a week or so ago with a question about the minimum curve requirement and I got no responses so I thought I would ask hear if you dont mind.

I am running o31 curves so I never thought I could have one of these because Lionels website stated a o36 minimum requirement.

I saw one for sale on this forum and it appeared the picture of the box stated it would run on o31 curve.

Does your box sticker state that or can you or anyone here let me know?

Figured I wasn't hijacking your post since you got your issue resolved.

Thanks

Brad

Hi Brad

These GP30 locomotives measure 15” from the farthest tip of the front coupler to the farthest tip of the rear coupler. The shell itself is 13.5”. My initial guess would be that you would be fine with 031. On the Lionel webpage for these locomotives (2133481 and 2133482) it says that they are 17” long. That is totally wrong. I measured them myself, so sometimes Lionel gets the details wrong.

My wife and I are at the gym right now, but as soon as we get home (7:30 ish) I’ll post a pic of what it says on the box for you. Check back around 7:30 this evening.

@DILLI posted:

Hi Brad

These GP30 locomotives measure 15” from the farthest tip of the front coupler to the farthest tip of the rear coupler. The shell itself is 13.5”. My initial guess would be that you would be fine with 031. On the Lionel webpage for these locomotives (2133481 and 2133482) it says that they are 17” long. That is totally wrong. I measured them myself, so sometimes Lionel gets the details wrong.

My wife and I are at the gym right now, but as soon as we get home (7:30 ish) I’ll post a pic of what it says on the box for you. Check back around 7:30 this evening.

Brad

Attached is a photo for the 2021 Lionel Legacy GP30 Reading & Northern. You'll be happy to learn that the box even says 031.

Robert