2022 American Flyer

One other thing to remember the Flyer Pacific/Mikado USRA tender was "stretched" to fit in the sound electronics and battery when the Mikado was first introduced back around 2004.  Technically, if I recall correctly, it's about 8-9 scale feet too long.

Rusty

@AmFlyer posted:

I went into the train room and took pictures of the Y3 with the 6 axle tender with dog house, and also with the 4 axle tender from the 2005 PRR light Mikado. I think both look good.

Note in the Lionel page Rusty posted above the length is given as 21.5”. That is the exact length over the couplers of the Y3 with the six axle tender. The same length with the 4 axle tender is 20”. Impossible to tell what the delivered engine will be with the contradictory information.

Boy, Love your layout.......really nice turntable.....as far as tenders go.....well...... I'll take the doghouse any day........ everybody knows that the Y's used a lot of coal and water,,,,,,

Jackie

The turntable bridge is 22" so that gives a perspective on the engine length. I did not move the engine so the extra space on the bridge in picture two is from the shorter tender length, 1.5". I was not aware that the Pacific/Mikado tenders were longer than scale.

The PRR engine is green. Compare it to the pure black of the UP Challenger behind it in the pictures.

Thanks Jackie, a turntable and roundhouse were must haves on my layout. They take up a lot of space, including the three approach tracks it is about 8'x 3'.

Just a bit of a "what if" exercise here, but isn't the doghouse a good candidate for either 3D printing or resin copies?  Even scratch building could work.  All you'd need is either a diagram or a sample to model.  C'mon some of you out there!  If I had ever a remote interest in those steamers (and I had the "green" to own one) I'd to it. 

Here is a better picture of the Y3 taken with a Nikon at f22 (5 second exposure) with some added lighting. The others I just took with my iPad handheld.

Also included are two pictures of a 2006 TMCC Pacific for those like me who are waiting for the Legacy Pacifics. Both of these engines are nicely detailed.

@AmFlyer posted:

Here is a better picture of the Y3 taken with a Nikon at f22 (5 second exposure) with some added lighting. The others I just took with my iPad handheld.

Also included are two pictures of a 2006 TMCC Pacific for those like me who are waiting for the Legacy Pacifics. Both of these engines are nicely detailed.

Beautiful! Maybe beyond so. Thank you sharing these! 😎

Thanks, I try to post pictures when they make sense. I assume the Legacy Pacific will be detailed the same as these TMCC Pacifics and Mikados. They are barely a step under the Legacy Y3 and Berkshire. The Challenger detailing was close to the Pacific/Mikado.

Rusty,

I think my point was missed.

Maybe $1799 is a test to see what we would pay for newly tooled items.

Except the Y3 isn't new tooling.

My point was new tooling will come at a higher cost.  If sales of a Y3 at $1799 will sell then Lionel knowing a new  

upper dollar limit we are willing to pay, may be willing to create new tooling such as an SD40, southern Pacific daylight GS4, aHudson etc.

—Rocco—

@Rocco posted:

Rusty,

I think my point was missed.

Maybe $1799 is a test to see what we would pay for newly tooled items.

Except the Y3 isn't new tooling.

My point was new tooling will come at a higher cost.  If sales of a Y3 at $1799 will sell then Lionel knowing a new  

upper dollar limit we are willing to pay, may be willing to create new tooling such as an SD40, southern Pacific daylight GS4, aHudson etc.

—Rocco—

As much as I'd like to see an SD40-2, newly tooled Hudson, GS4 or J, I'd pass at 1800 bucks.

Lionel's certainly going to find out if there's an upper dollar limit for existing tooling with the Y3.

Rusty

I believe Lionel priced the Y3 to provide their targeted ROI on an updated Legacy engine investment. The fact that it will provide information about the purchase volume at that price is true but I doubt that drove Lionel's pricing decision. The street price is $1,500 and I have one on order. The price is still 15% under an O gauge model. Buying S gauge Legacy engines at 1/2 of the O gauge price was great while it lasted, seems that will no longer be possible.

Were I responsible for approving S gauge engines I would require a higher ROI for S than for O because the likelihood of exceeding the build minimum by a larger than planned amount is lower. The total market is smaller but the investment and production costs are almost the same. This results in a lower probability of converting above plan gross margin into bottom line profit.

@AmFlyer posted:

I believe Lionel priced the Y3 to provide their targeted ROI on an updated Legacy engine investment.

The Y3 in 2012 was a completely new engine from the ground up would have incurred R&D and tooling costs. I would have thought that Lionel would have calculated these costs into the production run back then. It wouldn’t make sense to a bean counter to have outstanding costs hanging over for ten years and there is no guarantee that this run will take place.

So if all these costs have been paid for back in 2012 then the only additional costs now are for new electronics and special effects. I can’t believe that they would cost more than the original R&D plus tooling.

It just seems that Lionel are looking to extensively maximise profit on an engine that must cost less to manufacture than the original ten years ago. I could be wrong and missing something but I can’t see what it is.

Also, Lionel have basically very little competition in the S area, the SHS line basically ended when MTH acquired it and the new owners are not going to do much for another year or two and even then possibly re runs and limited selection.  AM has a following but my perception is that it never seemed to have broken out with a larger customer base, I can put my hand up and be guilty of this as I have a small number of engines and rolling stock. Nothing wrong with the products but it misses something that I can’t quite put my finger on.

So if Lionel feel they are top dog in S then of course they will/can charge what they want knowing they are safe for the time being until something changes.

Just my views and perceptions.

@Ukaflyer posted:

The Y3 in 2012 was a completely new engine from the ground up would have incurred R&D and tooling costs. I would have thought that Lionel would have calculated these costs into the production run back then. It wouldn’t make sense to a bean counter to have outstanding costs hanging over for ten years and there is no guarantee that this run will take place.

So if all these costs have been paid for back in 2012 then the only additional costs now are for new electronics and special effects. I can’t believe that they would cost more than the original R&D plus tooling.

I figured a rerun of the Y3 would have MSRP'd at $1500.00.  On the odd chance that would have been true, that means adding smoke is the extra $300.00.  The short tenders could be added to the Pacific's production run to minimize that cost.

It just seems that Lionel are looking to extensively maximise profit on an engine that must cost less to manufacture than the original ten years ago. I could be wrong and missing something but I can’t see what it is.

I'm not sure the Y3 could be made for less than 10 years ago.  Costs have gone up across the board, particularly in the last year or so.

Also, Lionel have basically very little competition in the S area, the SHS line basically ended when MTH acquired it and the new owners are not going to do much for another year or two and even then possibly re runs and limited selection.  

Agree here.  MTH unfortunately never had the knowledge or desire to successfully court the S modeler.  Scale Train is at least a year away from releasing anything (they have yet to announce anything from MTH HO, which is what they really wanted,) so ST's in a holding pattern.

AM has a following but my perception is that it never seemed to have broken out with a larger customer base, I can put my hand up and be guilty of this as I have a small number of engines and rolling stock. Nothing wrong with the products but it misses something that I can’t quite put my finger on.

That's been my perception as well.  Ron must have been doing something right to have to move into a larger facility a couple of years ago,  With Ron's passing, I feel AM will continue with existing products, but I doubt there will be anything requiring new tooling.

I think AM benefited the most from SHS in the "old days," who was a little more aggressive in marketing S.  The late 90's /early 2000's saw the greatest expansion of the AM product line.

So if Lionel feel they are top dog in S then of course they will/can charge what they want knowing they are safe for the time being until something changes.

And they don't have to bother to develop newer, scale rolling stock like the cylindrical hoppers.

Just my views and perceptions.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

As much as I'd like to see an SD40-2, newly tooled Hudson, GS4 or J, I'd pass at 1800 bucks.

Lionel's certainly going to find out if there's an upper dollar limit for existing tooling with the Y3.

Rusty

AMEN

Ray

@Rusty Traque posted:

As much as I'd like to see an SD40-2, newly tooled Hudson, GS4 or J, I'd pass at 1800 bucks.

Lionel's certainly going to find out if there's an upper dollar limit for existing tooling with the Y3.

Rusty

I suspect that a newly tooled SD40 might price in at roughly $700. Still, not cheap. Steam engine models are another matter. To restate the obvious, many of us do believe that an SD-40 (or -2) would be a good seller with many possible prototypical road names.

Bob

I just saw on Ebay a Y-3 for sale.....FYI......................It has the correct tender

Jackie

@William Jack posted:

I just saw on Ebay a Y-3 for sale.....FYI......................It has the correct tender

Jackie

The 2012 run only had one tender.

Rusty

Are there paper copies of the 2022 Flyer catalog? I got sent the 2022 O gauge one by TrainWorld as I have for years with an S gauge order that I just got.  But no 2022AF catalog.  

Ben

2022 AF catalog is digital.

When does the Y3 get released? Hope they have the orders.

The Lionel shipping schedule posted on their website shows all the S gauge Legacy Y3's shipping October 2022. The fact that in May there is a delivery date of October confirms they will be made. I ordered the 2221110 PRR.

@AmFlyer posted:

The Lionel shipping schedule posted on their website shows all the S gauge Legacy Y3's shipping October 2022. The fact that in May there is a delivery date of October confirms they will be made. I ordered the 2221110 PRR.

Okay, Great. I will also be buying the PRR.

Thanks!

@Rusty Traque posted:

Make that $1800 ($1799.99) Bob.  I figured a new Y3 would have weighed in at around $1500, so we're close there.  I guess the modifications for whistle steam and fitting for the Pacific tenders on some models are the extra $300.   I also wonder how far "road specific detailing" will go.  The illustrations are generic photoshops.

In spite of all that the Y3 remains the best Flyer locomotive Lionel has put out IMHO.  The Berk is a close second.

I'm reasonably happy with my 2012 (eccentric crank issue notwithstanding) era Y3 and as I don't do smoke, whistle steam doesn't add any value for me.

Rusty: Bob is so correct. Lionel uses Gilbert Alco shells and manufactures the products in China. Their prices are through the roof and reek of a huge profit for the Lionel Investment Company. No this is not the company of Richard Kughn.