2nd rant on Saturday York

Kindly allow me to share my observations.  I am not a TCA member, for me LCCA fits my needs and blends with what I put into the hobby.  I go to DuPage County Fair Grounds (or The Wheaton Show if you prefer) a couple of times each year and usually have a seller's table in December.  I have a seller's table at the LCCA show in November in Crown Point and attend local train shows in Indiana, Ohio and Illinois including The March Meet.

I respectfully submit that almost every positive and negative message written in this Forum applies to the train shows I attend.  Vendors cannot get in early enough, have to stay too long.  Aisles are too narrow, old fogies holding reunions in the aisles.  Empty tables, merchandise covered with sheets.  Entry fee is too high, wives must pay to enter.  Only two people per table are given entry passes.  And whatever I haven't listed.  A few vendors pack up and leave at noon from every show.  A few buyers come in with thirty minutes to go.

At most shows, I'll have a table next to a train buddy; after we're set up either he or I will walk through the building(s).  Then the other man goes.  Seems to work just fine.

As big as the attendance is at York, there is no way to please everyone.  Reminds me of a Greyhound bus broken down in the middle of the Mojave.  If a Good Humor truck arrived and the driver gave everyone a vanilla ice cream bar, some one would complain they didn't get strawberry.

Someone once said that if you don't like the way an event is being run, volunteer to be on the staff for the next one.  At any train show, sellers spend a lot of time and money bringing to one convenient location what they hope to sell.  No one may have what you want right now.  That is not a problem, it is a fact of life.  Train shows are nothing more than a garage sale or flea market with a percentage of retail outlets.  If you go looking for a specific item, you may not find it.  If you don't, keep looking and spread the word.  Don't give up and don't give a bad rap to the volunteers who work hard to put on a good show that benefits both buyers and sellers. 

Complaining about the hours of operation doesn't do anyone any good.  Write or call the people who set those hours.  Make your points to them. 

John in Lansing, Illinois

Wow, why is anybody surprised by what happens on Saturday at the York train show. It has been this way for years. 

Yes it has to delt with by the ED but for now it is what it is, deal with it. I have been a table holder and a buyer and never liked it for the light turnout. 

Saturday is is a complete waste of time, just don't go, maybe the ED will get the hint and change how things are run. 

I agree with STEAM and others....No matter what the closing day/time, human/vendor nature re an event such as York will be to start packing, loading the dollies/carts, pointing things toward the door, etc. ahead of the final minute of the final hour.

Such is current life.

Penalties for playing 'Beat-The-Clock'?....sure, why not?  Enforcing them?.....a different story....for which I doubt it'll happen with any change of behavior.   In a certain sense, it's become 'The American Way'.  (Know any drivers ticketed for speeding for which that became the last time they exceeded the speed limit?)

So what to do, what to do?   Hmmmmm.....

Well, here's some ruminations.... 

How about REWARDING those who adhere to the rules?   Because it's not a common technique for meets/shows and maybe a puzzlement to some....it's the OPPOSITE of penalizing the law-breakers.   (Sort of like Allstate Insurance's well-advertised auto insurance gimmick of sending their insured periodic checks for remaining accident-free...a reward...a positive goal...worth doing/pursuing).

Reward?  A vendor site discount for the next/subsequent York meet?...for sticking around to the final hour.

Food.  It always seems to attract attention.  Maybe a free food voucher for $X from a variety of establishments, handed out to those who stick around to the final hour.

Or a discount voucher valid for the next meet's time frame from a variety of motel/hotel establishments housing the vendors.

Or......?

Of course, we can just chalk it up to human/vendor nature, absorb the P&M, and say 'That's life!'....and go through this type of threading 6 months from now......again.

Whatever....

KD

As one who attended Fall & Spring York for 18 years primarily on Saturday (in that time was only able to go twice on a NON-Saturday) I agree with the idea that the E.Div needs to address the early pack up, no matter what day it is.

Does it mean the E.Div should rethink their std. operating procedure of the printed rules or what seem to be more like "guidelines" they attempt to reinforce by repetitive PA announcements with little consequence. IMO YES   A verbal or written warning, followed by loss of table "location", added surcharge... etc. should be practiced or considered.

To those that say "it's a long meet and people are tired and want to get home", yes it is, but you knew that when signing up/committing to hold a table. Would those so quick to give the table holder a pass on the early pack (even with the minimum one item for sale on the table loophole) be so generous with that same pass if they went to a hobby shop during its posted hours, only to find it repeatedly closed or being told as you arrive "I'm closing early today".  How likely will you be a return customer?

I understand from both a financial & pride of organization the E.Div wants & needs both table holders & attendees.  York is still the best, if not one of the best model train meet/shows.  But the reduced numbers over the past several years as a member only meet have IMO shown that York no longer has the power, caché and momentum that moved the E.Div to make this a THU/FRI/SAT from the prior FRI/SAT.  Obviously, such a contraction would likely not currently be seen as a feather in the cap for an E.Div board member, but it might still be a necessity for the event's long term continuation.

If member "traders" still want to get together early, they can attempt to restore the bandit meets of years past and meet on WED/THU.

To Keystone's point, I know of a train store in the Harrisburg area whose owner kept irregular hours.  More than a few times, I stopped by during his posted hours only to find the door locked.  After awhile, it got to be a joke.  And after a little longer, he got to be a joke.  That store closed last year, its door padlocked and a sheriff's eviction notice on it.  Turns out he hadn't paid the rent in years.  Wonder why?

If you are a vendor at a show, you need to be there for the stated duration.  As far as I'm concerned, that's a commitment.  Closing early might cause you to miss a sale(s).

George

I went to York on Saturday.

Bought 3 engines.

Didn't want to, but had to.  They were so cheap.

I paused to look at one brand new engine.  I knew that they went for $200 - $250 on the bay and I was trying to decide why it was still there.

The owner had the nerve to walk over and mark that engine down from $125.00 to

$110.00, while I was standing there looking at it.  I had not bent over, spoken a word, or touched the engine.  I had just paused to look at it.

He told me that was the "magic" of a magic marker.

I knew the going price on the bay was over $200.00 so rather than get offended,

I told him if it goes to $100.00 I'm buying it.

He promptly marked it to $100.00 and asked me if that helped any.

We packed it up in the original box and shipping carton and I paid.

I looked at 4 MOB Lionel scale cars that usually were in the $40-$50 price range.

I was trying to figure out why they were so cheap.

One of the owners asked if I was interested in them all, I said I could be.

They held a quick conference and I overheard the number "50" mentioned between them, so I offered them $50.00 and they immediately accepted.

I kinda like these dreary, dismal York Saturdays.

It makes it easier to find out who is serious about selling.

I have a hard time getting down on the Eastern Division and their handling of THEIR train meet, especially since I am a guest from another division.

I am puzzled that with all that is wrong with the York meet, as best I can tell it is still the gold standard of O gauge train meets.

You would think that with so many obvious, possible improvements that someone else would start a train show that runs a week or 2 before York and eventually kill the York train show. 

York's been running for about 50+ years, right?

You would think that's enough time to come up with some better alternative train show.

Let me toss out a different perspective. JANUARY 2015, I put in for Thurs/Fri as vacation days. On Fri around 8:52 AM my cell phone began to blow-up with a problem at work. One senior manager gave me an ultimatum that I had 15 minutes to get to the plant. He was none too pleased when I explained that I was in York PA and there is no mode of transportation on the planet that would get me there in that time.

After numerous calls and a great deal of anxiety I ended up bailing out around noon. Rant all you want about BEING at York. It's a bear to end up with your fanny in a sling because you were at York when a problem occurred.

Same for military collectible shows. So many around here at Friday/Saturday. I'm convinced that is so the organizers can get to the best stuff before anyone else.

Now that's funny! I had the same experience many years ago and told my boss that perhaps he should look up the meaning of PTO (Personal Time Off).   With my cousin being an elected judge (which my colleagues were aware) at least I didn't get it held against me.  Off means off (unless there's a previous agreement in place for emergencies).

-Greg

My 2 cents, it would be nice if York were a 2 day event all day Friday and all day Saturday.  I have issues at work as well.  While some of you may be in the position to tell your boss (or think you can tell your boss) where and when you will be there some of us have responsibilities that precludes that response.  Also, I'm 60 and do not want to start competing with folks in the job market.  I know what I signed up for, I accepted that responsibility and expect to honor it until I retire.  If I get called for something there has always been a good reason, professionalism, responsibility to maintaining family finances come first.  And for perspective I work in health care, so any demands on my time mean I am fulfilling a need for someone else.  

Even though York is but a 2+ hour drive from me, i know enough to not even try to go on Saturday simply because every other train show I have ever attended has vendors bailing out early.  It just isn't worth the time and gas even if a stop at Caballas was factored into the trip.

ONCE AGAIN, for the Sellers who stayed Saturday . . .thank you. You are the ones that wanted to sell us trains.

For those Sellers who left early, thanks for thinning the herd!

The people that run York and those that attend as Vendors should follow the rules they put out, not pick and choose which ones they want to selectively enforce.  I'm sure this thread will be shut down soon as it is another dead horse.  Nothing will change and nothing will be done until new blood moves in and puts the meet back on track.

Off means off (unless there's a previous agreement in place for emergencies).

Yeah, that's becoming less and less a reality.

I know several people who are required to have their computer and Wi-Fi anywhere they go, at any time of day or night. One, a manager with a very well-known website company told me he was at his Mother's funeral and was later written up for not having his computer available to drop what he was doing (that is, being at her service) and handle some minor emergency for his boss. He talked with HR when he got back and was told he needed to go back and read the conditions of his employment.

Another was written up for not being where there was no cell service. He was hiking the Appalachian Trail, for crying out loud, on a leave of absence, and he was still expected to drop anything he was doing, day or night. They even tried calling him at about 1AM his time!

Make no mistake, people, you'll not be seeing less of this as the technology makes people more accessible and managers more demanding of their time.

I'm not a big fan of unions for what they're morphed into, but I must admit if this gets worse (and there's no reason why it won't) there might be a legit need for them again... soon.

Originally Posted by Greg Houser:

Off means off (unless there's a previous agreement in place for emergencies).

Yeah, that's becoming less and less a reality.

In our company handbook it clearly states that PTO and vacation are subject to company production needs and managerial discretion up to a last minute change. Now my GM has never pulled that nuclear option on anyone that I know of but most company handbooks have that proviso included so even if you have it it can be pulled out from under you.

Jerry

aussteve, You don't know what you are talking about. The people that run the meet do a great job. Why don't you start a show 2 weeks before York. 

In all fairness, IMO it is very similar from the perspective of the paying attendee and the organizer of the meet. As someone posted, it is not fair to that day's or entire show's full price paying patron.  To dismiss the SAT only attendee with a you should have come on THU or FRI will only increase the trickle of blood from attending at all.

I have no issue with starting to "organize" their area to in the last 30 to 60 minutes of a meet, but it is much different when you see people or a large vendor starting to pack when there are still several hours remaining in the meet.  The EDiv claims to forbid table holder from removing their items from the hall, but still some large vendors have direct access to the truck from the selling area and are almost completely packed to go by Noon on SAT.  The EDiv should consider closing their access to "that" adjacent dock door.

As I said earlier, York is the best if not one of the best train meets/shows around.  However the train hobby AND train business is changing and organizers and participants need to address some fundamental issues to how they conduct themselves and their business.

To paraphrase an old saying, "be wary those that say that the YORK meet should primarily be for the traditional trading members; you might just get your wish.

Why do some of you constantly complain about York. Why don't you just enjoy it, or just don't go. STAY HOME

York is a COLLECTORS MEET FIRST.

Originally Posted by Greg Houser:

Off means off (unless there's a previous agreement in place for emergencies).

Yeah, that's becoming less and less a reality.

I know several people who are required to have their computer and Wi-Fi anywhere they go, at any time of day or night. One, a manager with a very well-known website company told me he was at his Mother's funeral and was later written up for not having his computer available to drop what he was doing (that is, being at her service) and handle some minor emergency for his boss. He talked with HR when he got back and was told he needed to go back and read the conditions of his employment.

Another was written up for not being where there was no cell service. He was hiking the Appalachian Trail, for crying out loud, on a leave of absence, and he was still expected to drop anything he was doing, day or night. They even tried calling him at about 1AM his time!

Make no mistake, people, you'll not be seeing less of this as the technology makes people more accessible and managers more demanding of their time.

I'm not a big fan of unions for what they're morphed into, but I must admit if this gets worse (and there's no reason why it won't) there might be a legit need for them again... soon.

I think Hyundai touched on this topic in their Tucson commercial.

As the clock strikes 6:01 p.m., a man packs his briefcase and storms out of the office...and everyone takes notice. Since when was leaving work on time an act of courage? As he drives off in his Hyundai Tucson, everyone in the office gathers and stares enviously out the window. Don't wear busy like a badge and start living.

Eddie, "is" or "was" is debatable.  However, its "FORM" for purposes of the PA Dept. of Revenue might be a "collectors meet", but it's growth over the past 20 years to where it is currently, makes its true "FUNCTION" something different.

Most working stiffs have the same thing on the books. The problem is many companies are using that provision more and more, now that people can be easier reached than ever before.

I'm so glad I resigned my commission in the Army before the time when everyone had cell phones. I am sure I would have been called at all times of day or night as that happened all the time on my land line. I was never always at home and so many times, they'd be calling my answering machine (and accepting that reality, though I'd still get chewed out the night morning sometimes). I have talked with current Army officers and have been told that consistently, they get in a great deal of trouble if they don't answer their cells at any hours of the day/night.

Yeah, the military isn't the same thing as civilian employers, but I'm hearing the same thing from people not in uniform, too.

I always snicker at people who say, "An employer can't do...", because that phrase won't help you in the unemployment line.

It was never like this when I entered the job market, but it wasn't an expected thing for an employee to be reached any time their boss wanted, up until recently.

And how is this enforceable?  Let's say Joe wants to go home - he finds his buddy Steve, and "sells" his entire collection to Steve and will deliver it to him.  EDTCA tells Joe he can't pack up early, Joe says he sold his entire collection and is packing it up for Steve.  What is EDTCA going to do?

Originally Posted by Greg Houser:

Off means off (unless there's a previous agreement in place for emergencies).

Yeah, that's becoming less and less a reality.

I know several people who are required to have their computer and Wi-Fi anywhere they go, at any time of day or night. One, a manager with a very well-known website company told me he was at his Mother's funeral and was later written up for not having his computer available to drop what he was doing (that is, being at her service) and handle some minor emergency for his boss. He talked with HR when he got back and was told he needed to go back and read the conditions of his employment.

Another was written up for not being where there was no cell service. He was hiking the Appalachian Trail, for crying out loud, on a leave of absence, and he was still expected to drop anything he was doing, day or night. They even tried calling him at about 1AM his time!

Make no mistake, people, you'll not be seeing less of this as the technology makes people more accessible and managers more demanding of their time.

I'm not a big fan of unions for what they're morphed into, but I must admit if this gets worse (and there's no reason why it won't) there might be a legit need for them again... soon.

I've had jobs where I've been on call 24/7, but "off" always meant "off" unless the building was on fire.  The rare calls while off were always prefaced with extensive apologies. 

This is a situation where people need to stand up and say "enough is enough".  I strongly doubt that a competent employee will face any real consequences for being unavailable during a vacation or funeral.  Vote with your feet if necessary.

Please tell us exactly what you mean when you say ...makes its true "FUNCTION" something different. Please define its true function and then explain how it is something different.

What, indeed? Are there any real penalties for that?

You clearly don't work for a company that does this. My company changed the nature of the job a few years ago, making OT requirements a condition of employment. SO, we had at least 5 years of it. At some points, we were working 10-20 hours OT at the least.

Vacation?

Funeral?

New baby (especially if you're the Dad)?

Sick?

Don't care, work your OT

A co-worker of mine came back form his brother's funeral for a few days, and before he even sat down, was advised how much OT he needed to make up while he was gone.

People would complain, but it wouldn't get you anywhere. "Be thankful you have a job," was what we were consistently told. Our company pays the best among all the competition and nobody here can make remotely the same salary if they quit, and we all know that (I have 13 years in, voting with my feet is not an option).

It's a little better but not by much in some cases. We have a group who tracks manpower and decides if you can take time off. We hardly ever get to take time off for anything. Heck, I was once denied time off for jury duty! No, I'm not making that up. I had to have a manager go tell them they legally didn't have the option to say no to me for that. They will often lock all employees out for time off, for months at a time. I tell friends that if an event takes place on a work day, and it's less than 6 months away, to not even tell me about it as I won't get the day off.

That is the reality of employment for several large companies any more.

Originally Posted by Scrapiron Scher:

I agree on penalizing, Scrapiron. From what I understand, for many Yorks there's been a sell out of available space and tables prior to the shows and a wait list in the event someone cancels. My solution of a penalty would be to deny those guilty parties space at the next York. Maybe then they'd finally get it. As of now they might figure by closing shop early the last day they don't risk losing much in  sales but if they also faced possibly losing all sales at the next York meet because they were denied space, then I bet they'd have an attitude adjustment as fast as lightning!!!.

 

I think if you examine the empty tables seen at meets over at least the last 3-5 years, this is no longer true.  10-15 years ago it was probably still true.

At this point, it probably happens because the ED wants the table holders to fill up the halls as much as the table holders want a space in the halls to sell their stuff.

-Dave

I believe that's called slavery with golden shackles.

Rusty

Please correct me if i'm wrong but I was under the impression that those in the Orange Hall are businesses and I assume you are too...so if you're the head of a business (especially a small business), isn't it to be expected and the norm that to keep such a business viable and thriving takes a major commitment in time, money, and energy? I've never encountered an owner of a small successful business who thought their time was truly their own. Vendors can indeed be crass and say the issue of packing up early is what it is and likely won't change, but then those people who you depend on for your income and viability of your business can likewise be just as nonchalant and simply say "adios".      

Sometimes, Eddie G, complaining is a way of getting attention - "the squeaky wheel gets..." . IMO. It does get tiresome, doesn't it.

FrankM.

Eddie G, if you don't like people expressing their opinion, don't read the post.

I know nothing about the logistics of the meet. Just wondering, however, if it might be beneficial to open at 9 a.m. Thursday with the caveat that attendees should not expect all vendors to be fully ready for selling until noon. That might provide a reverse incentive for vendors: an incentive to arrive early Thursday rather than leave early Saturday. I spoke with several of our more senior attendees who said it now takes them considerably longer to 'do the rounds' in their day or two at York, so a few more Thursday hours might help.

Opening the meet at 9:00 AM on thursday would mean another nights food and lodging for me. I am not leaving my home at 3:00 AM to get to York for a 9:00 opening. "Senior attendees" has been mentioned. Poor night vision comes with being a senior, and for many of us, one does not have to be all that old to suffer the issue. Driving through the middle of the night becomes an issue of safety.

The noon opening on Thursday suits me just fine.

As I posted earlier, perhaps the Saturday hours should be reset to 8:00 AM till noon.

That sounds like a good idea,  a few hours wasted waiting to go in Thursday.  I noticed a few vendors packing it up on Friday afternoon around 3.30. that is a shame, you cannot sell anything if you are not there.

Yes I agree you had to really move fast to try and take it all in in two days, we could have used a few hours more to look, I am sure folks missed something they could have used. I did not go Saturday because I know they back it up early and I did not want to pay for another night for that.

It gets lonely up there on Friday night.

Nothing say you have to be there for the opening bell.  If the meet opens at 9 and you get there a noon, where is the problem?

BURFLE, go Wednesday. You can afford it. I also would like to see a 9am opening on Thursday. I have already talked about it with eastern bigwigs. It's plain stupid to sit around all morning on Thursday waiting for 12 noon.

BURFLE, You missed a great bandit meet at the Wyndham Tuesday & Wednesday.

If you don't drive at night, you must be old.

!.  I lived in Kentucky when they had Blue Laws...if you had a car you needed to work on, you could not get parts for it in Ky., for the auto parts stores were closed.  I had

to drive (maybe a parent's car) across the Ohio River into Indiana to get auto parts for some heap I was driving so I could show up for work on Monday morning, which, where else, was back in Indiana.  What is the Pennsylvania Blue Law preventing York being a Saturday and Sunday show, so hapless working stiffs, among whom, thankfully, I am no longer enumerated, can get in the show when there is actually stuff on the tables for sale. Timonium was open on Sunday, as is Wheaton, and most of the local shows

I attend.

2. Shows that compete with York?  There WAS one, this York, the Timonium show , on Saturday morning, that I showed up at, at opening, rather than hike the empty tables at Saturday York. My hope was,  that, maybe, in new and different stuff, I would find something.

3.  I was very lucky.  I worked for an organization that had European style vacaton

times....and I took them, and have not missed a York from the mid Eighties.  Then

and now I cannot believe the sweatshops some people had/have to work for.  I complained about the pay, but do not now regret not finding another job, for which

I occasionally searched, for that reason.  I am absolutely positive I have gotten a

whole lot more out of life not working for one of those, and, possibly, lived longer.  I took those long vacation times, sometimes to Europe to share their lengthy "holiday" time.

4.  I am aware of a shop with weird hours, so I rarely visit it, because I am not sure

it will be open.

Point is, York hours don't affect me..I will show up (but...quit sitting up, so I can

leave when I want to).  They did when I had to use vacation time to attend, and

I feel for those who are discriminated against because they are employed and the

goodies are gone when they get there (if there were any).

I'm almost embarrassed to proclaim that I too am a senior citizen considering all the bellyaching and whatever I'm reading from many of my" junior" senior citizen peers. Rather than using the energy and stamina you still have to bemoan any inconvenience changes in hours or days might entail, get real and be thankful God has graced you today on being on the side of the turf that allows you to attend York, irregardless of any inconvenience of driving hours, set up time, another nights stay, etc. which a change in York hours or days might bring your way. Get it that being a senior is not a badge of honor any of us has earned but rather a matter of mere chance that's been granted to us by the hand of fate and God. Life owes us nothing because of the simple fact of our longevity but rather we owe using that time we've been blessed with to help others. Isn't it reward enough many of us are eligible for senior discounts and other benefits of age others have bestowed on us, things which we haven't "won" or done anything on our behalf or our own merit to get. Stop indulging in a pity party and enjoy the life you have left and however diminished you eyesight might be, be thankful you've got enough use of that faculty to read this post.

But how would such a change accommodate the vendors who need to off-load and set-up on Thursday morning, sir?