3 Rail trains and DCC?

I have dcc and MTH DCS Protosounds 2 in my some of my HO and 3 rail models.
Both seem to work fine but the parts cost does add up.

I rather spend money on good looking models than expensive electronics I can't fix or get parts for.

If it runs, don't break it

If it does not run take the electronics out and use a diode bridge rectifier to run the can motor off AC for now.

DCC works great with 3 rail track and will be the primary command system on my new layout that is about to start construction. I currently have 9 TMCC locos, 11 DCS locos 5 of which are PS/3 and will run under DCC, and 11 DCC equipped 3 rail locomotives that I used Soundtraxx decoders to upgrade to command control. Converting all 47 of my locos is going to be very expensive and will have to be done slowly over time, all my PS/2 locos will get stacker boards to upgrade them to PS/3.

I run both TMCC and DCS on my layout and they both work fine.  I'm happy with cab2.  I run a mix of legacy, TMCC, PS2 and 3v PS3.  If the PS3 breaks I upgrade to PS3.  Since the systems play fine with each other I see no reason to convert anything.  Plus if something cool comes out from any manufacturer I'd like to be able to run it.  I may also try Blunami on the next thing that breaks.

@trainman129 posted:

I've been thinking about maby trying to put a DCC system into my 3 rail trains. I have a TMCC system with about six of their accessory controllers that are giving me fits. Seems there should be a better way.

Thanks for any ideas.

Jay

My opinion is DCC is a great system and the best of all the command systems but that does not mean it is perfect. I have had all 3 systems and when it comes to engine responding to a command DCC has been by far the most reliable and robust for me. I am sure others have had the opposite experience and of course there are things that TMCC and DCS do better than DCC. As I have often said every one of the command control systems has their pros and cons. No one system is the be all and end all of control systems. The number of rails has nothing to do with the electronics in a locomotive. These are my opinions based on my experience with all 3 systems.

The question is: Is DCC right for you? Do you wish to convert your locomotives to DCC? How many locomotives do you have? Are you a Lionel fan and plan to buy more Lionel locomotives in the future? If you have a large fleet of locomotives that already have TMCC or Legacy I would stick with the 3 rail control systems and try to get them to work for you because it will be expensive to convert your fleet. You could always get a DCC system and use it for all of your accessory controllers. You may be able to get away with a smaller HO sized system since you won't be powering locomotives which will save you money. I may do the opposite. There is a Lionel accessory I want to buy and I plan to set up TMCC to control it as I don't want the hassle of converting the accessory to DCC. I also want to try Blunami after seeing Norm C's video on YouTube about it. Good luck.

Again these are my opinions.

"I have a TMCC system with about six of their accessory controllers that are giving me fits."

What specific problems? Perhaps someone can help?

I have four TMCC SC-2 controllers mounted in a row under the edge of my layout. Tha first in line works fine, sw 1-6. Tha next two don't do anything. The last in the row only works on the last switch( #24). Doesn't make any sense to me. Anyone have any ideas??

If you want to try out DCC and don't want it to have any effect on your current 3rail AC layout, here's an approach.

Upgrade one of your locos with a BlueRailDCC (available from Tam Valley Depot) coupled with a Tsunami DCC decoder. The BRDCC will operate on AC without any mods to your layout power and the Tsunami decoder will provide full access to DCC.

Download the free Blunami app onto a smart device. The app is compatible with the the BRDCC, will provide full access to all aspects of DCC and includes a simplified approach to CV settings. This avoids the expense of a DCC controller.

You will be able to check out DCC with no impact on your 3rail AC layout.

Just remember that adopting DCC will not make your SC-2 controllers work any better .  It's possible the problem is that they have died or on the way there,  rather than an inherent system design and implementation problem.  Any recent thunderstorms in your area?   Replacement of one of the dysfunctional ones with a new item could be one strategy, or at least testing by a shop that has that capability.  Even cheaper and easier is to move the functional SC-2 to the position of the failed devices and see if the switches now work.  If they do, the problem is the SC-2s, not the system. Not as expensive as ditching the whole system.

I believe you can get similar devices to the SC-2 for DCC, but have no idea how easy to implement or reliable they are. I believe there is a recent series (last few months) on layout control electronics with DCC in Railroad Model Craftsman that you might want to get hold of.

The DCC sub under control systems here  on OGR is a good place to ask.

3Rail should've had  DCC from the get go. A standard system that would've worked with all manufactures of 3 rail locomotives.

"3Rail should've had  DCC from the get go."

None of the DCC manufacturers were interested in the 3 rail market, so it was never a consideration in the 1990s and 2000s.  There was literally no appropriate equipment that could handle the amperage needed for the AC motors of the 1990s, and that's one reason Lionel (and later MTH) developed their own systems.  In the 1990s, DCC was an inferior system for sound and costs to Lionel's TMCC.

By the time DCC decoders that would be appropriate for O gauge three rail trains became available, the entire hobby had sunk costs in TMCC/Legacy/DCS command control locos and control equipment.  It seems unlikely that the sole remaining 3 rail manufacturer developing new devices will adopt DCC. For one thing, LionChief is a  superior system for beginners (in terms of simplicity, ease of use and cost) and is included in all their sets.

@feet posted:

3Rail should've had  DCC from the get go. A standard system that would've worked with all manufactures of 3 rail locomotives.

True maybe, but when TMCC first came out there was quite a bit of backlash against it among 3 railers. I remember a guy trying to market 3 rail DCC way back but his marketing was based on trashing TMCC which was actually starting to catch on by then.

I hope all the DCC companies can try to engage 3 railers in the near future but being a 3 railer myself I can sort of understand their reluctance. I do think there's a real need for better controls and some of the moves being in made in 3 rail right now are not in the best interest of the end user IMO.

Personally I'd rather see Legacy become the 3 rail standard.  It's simple and it works great.  I don't like or understand the complexity of DCS or DCC and that's why I never used it when I ran HO. If they could find a way to make DCC work with a single wire the way Legacy does, then it'd be something I'd consider. 

@Brian DeFazio posted:

Personally I'd rather see Legacy become the 3 rail standard.  It's simple and it works great.  I don't like or understand the complexity of DCS or DCC and that's why I never used it when I ran HO. If they could find a way to make DCC work with a single wire the way Legacy does, then it'd be something I'd consider.

Even though i am a proponent of DCC that's not a terrible idea. However, for Legacy to became the Standard Lionel would have to allow everyone else to use it for free. I am sure it cost Lionel a lot of money to develop Legacy so I certainly can't blame them for keeping their tech proprietary.  It also gives them an edge against what little competition is left.

I joined the TCA in 2001 and I went to my first York. There was a guy there who was selling non sound DCC decoders for 3 rail engines. He used to advertise in CTT under the name 3rDCC. If you look in the magazines during that era you will see his small ads. This may or may not be the guy that was bashing TMCC that Norm was talking about. I talked to the guy at length at York and I don't recall him bashing TMCC to me but that doesn't mean it wasn't him. He had a display of a 3 rail engine running under DCC on a circle of track but I am pretty sure the engine had a can motor. I know NCE had non sound 8 amp decoders in the late 1990s. I am not sure when they officially came out but they were designed for O and G scale. Would these have worked with some modification on those old AC motors? I don't know. Was it too late by that point? Again, I don't know. Was TMCC already out in locomotives before the 8 amp decoders came out? I am not sure. I do remember an article in OGR showing how those old AC motors could be made to run smoother on DC. As pointed out above in the late 1990s DCC decoders for high amperage situations were very expensive. I do agree that those old AC pullmoor motors and the cost of DCC equipment were part of the problem back then for DCC in 3 rail, but I will always feel that money/market share were also part of the decision to develop proprietary technology. I can't prove that as I didn't work for Lionel back then but that is my opinion.

In my opinion, two things killed 3rDCC back then and that is #1) DCC was not an option installed in locomotives and #2) the 3rDCC guy was selling non sound decoders. Even back then TMCC sounded pretty good (better than anything else that was out at the time) so in what world could non sound decoders compete with TMCC? DCC for 3 rail back then was pretty much doomed.

First TMCC engine and setup I saw must have been 1995-96 so it was out a few years before the 3rDCC stuff. Up until the late 90s pre-Odyssey NYC Alco PAs, TMCC was mostly installed in AC Pullmor drives. 

My dissatisfaction with the current state of 3 rail controls is the fact that these systems have fallen far behind the tech curve. Not being able to customize every feature available in an engine is really kinda lame in this day and age. I like Legacy and TMCC for everything the systems have offered but it's pretty much stagnant now. I wish I could turn those awful "skrreee aaww" and "groink" sounds every Legacy engine has to make but I can't because someone else made the decision I'm supposed to hear them all the time. They can even start before the chuffing for cryin' out loud! I do like the full layout management TMCC/Legacy has (track power and turnout control for instance) and I'm not sure it would be worth replacing at this point.

Good points Norm.

Due to stroke and limited mobility I need computer control..I’m going dcc on my layout which was legacy ..If computer compatibility with legacy was compatibility for control options would stay with legacy however it’s not …Scale 3rail modeler in Rockford