3 things York could learn from The Big E

Art

I commented on your video.  Unfortunately the biggest hurdle is the rumored agreement the EDTCA has with the PA tax man keeping it primarily a member's only meet with the exception of the vendor halls.

Have you shared these ideas with ED? 

Re #3 - opening all buildings to the public on Saturday.  The reason that non-members can't go into the member halls is rooted in a sales tax situation with the state and township.  Back in the 1980s, ED reached a compromise with the tax authorities regarding not requiring non-dealer members to collect and remit sales tax.  If non-dealer members are required to collect tax (paperwork!), it will likely kill the meet.  ED could revisit this with the tax authorities, but doing so would run the risk of losing the existing compromise.  I understand ED's reluctance to open that can of worms.   

@MartyE posted:

Art

I commented on your video.  Unfortunately the biggest hurdle is the rumored agreement the EDTCA has with the PA tax man keeping it primarily a member's only meet with the exception of the vendor halls.

At one point, the letter was posted somewhere - can't remember if it was on TCA's or ED's website, or maybe in the TCA newsletter.  I recall reading it.

Please don't post comments regarding the legitimacy of the tax compromise, whether it's right/wrong/unjust - it is what it is, and replaying the arguments again will just lead to getting the thread closed.

Move the meet to Delaware.  No sales tax!

My take on this:

1.  The EDTCA has put layouts inside Orange Hall (not just in the vestibule area) in the past when there was space available.  They can't put layouts in most of the member halls because members who have had their tables for two consecutive meets are guaranteed the same space/location until they have voluntarily given up that space or failed to pay for that space for two consecutive meets.  Similar rules apply to the public halls -- the EDTCA is not going to kick someone out of their space to re-arrange for adding layouts.  There is plenty of room in Purple and Black Halls for layouts, and since they are in the middle of the fairgrounds, there really is no excuse for missing them.

2.  Increasing the party-like atmosphere -- York already is a big party, but there is a lot of room for improvement.  EDTCA currently has a welcoming party on Tuesday nights, the ice cream social on Friday night, and the coffee and donuts on Saturday morning, plus the various interest group meetings taking place during meet hours.  Outside of the EDTCA's efforts are lots of gatherings from non-TCA groups, like the OGR Forum gathering, LCCA gathering, DCS User Group, and others, and then there are local club open houses and other events (Clem's Primer is invaluable in finding out about some of these events).  They certainly could get more food trucks involved, and maybe they could partner with the fairgrounds or a third party to host a food truck event to run during the event.  I know that they prohibit alcohol on the fairgrounds during the meet, but they do have beer and wine at the Tuesday welcoming party, so I assume that it is an insurance / liability issue and not a fairgrounds policy issue.  Maybe if there were a third party food truck event, it could include local microbreweries... (I know I wouldn't mind a craft brew or two during the afternoons ).

3.  The tax issue has already been mentioned and debated (twice a year like clockwork, year after year, it seems), but it is still very easy for anyone who is either a first time attendee or only attended the public halls on previous visits to get full access by registering as a guest in the Silver Hall.  It can only happen once, but it is perfect for someone who will only be able to go one time, or for the person who wants to see what the rest of it is all about, after that, all that is required is TCA membership.  One thing the EDTCA could do is offer the one-time guest registrations for Saturday only at $5 per adult with kids being free.

A couple of years ago, I counted the vendor tables at both The Big E and York  (based on published hall charts of both venues) and found that York had double the number of tables than The Big E -- York had 2400+ tables to The Big E's 1200+ -- and if you consider that The Big E is all scales, the ratio of O gauge to other scales would be much higher at York.

Andy

@Andy Hummell posted:

My take on this:

1.  The EDTCA has put layouts inside Orange Hall (not just in the vestibule area) in the past when there was space available.  They can't put layouts in most of the member halls because members who have had their tables for two consecutive meets are guaranteed the same space/location until they have voluntarily given up that space or failed to pay for that space for two consecutive meets.  Similar rules apply to the public halls -- the EDTCA is not going to kick someone out of their space to re-arrange for adding layouts.  There is plenty of room in Purple and Black Halls for layouts, and since they are in the middle of the fairgrounds, there really is no excuse for missing them.

2.  Increasing the party-like atmosphere -- York already is a big party, but there is a lot of room for improvement.  EDTCA currently has a welcoming party on Tuesday nights, the ice cream social on Friday night, and the coffee and donuts on Saturday morning, plus the various interest group meetings taking place during meet hours.  Outside of the EDTCA's efforts are lots of gatherings from non-TCA groups, like the OGR Forum gathering, LCCA gathering, DCS User Group, and others, and then there are local club open houses and other events (Clem's Primer is invaluable in finding out about some of these events).  They certainly could get more food trucks involved, and maybe they could partner with the fairgrounds or a third party to host a food truck event to run during the event.  I know that they prohibit alcohol on the fairgrounds during the meet, but they do have beer and wine at the Tuesday welcoming party, so I assume that it is an insurance / liability issue and not a fairgrounds policy issue.  Maybe if there were a third party food truck event, it could include local microbreweries... (I know I wouldn't mind a craft brew or two during the afternoons ).

3.  The tax issue has already been mentioned and debated (twice a year like clockwork, year after year, it seems), but it is still very easy for anyone who is either a first time attendee or only attended the public halls on previous visits to get full access by registering as a guest in the Silver Hall.  It can only happen once, but it is perfect for someone who will only be able to go one time, or for the person who wants to see what the rest of it is all about, after that, all that is required is TCA membership.  One thing the EDTCA could do is offer the one-time guest registrations for Saturday only at $5 per adult with kids being free.

A couple of years ago, I counted the vendor tables at both The Big E and York  (based on published hall charts of both venues) and found that York had double the number of tables than The Big E -- York had 2400+ tables to The Big E's 1200+ -- and if you consider that The Big E is all scales, the ratio of O gauge to other scales would be much higher at York.

Andy

Excellent summary and explanation, and great idea regarding a microbrew truck.  I would vote for Troegs.

Good reminder about local clubs - I always enjoy the Red Lion layout.  And a shameless plug for Standard Gauge Module Association (SGMA) - we take over the black hall with a large layout and a great meeting with show and tell on Friday morning.  It's a great place to take a break, watch some trains, and see the latest creations.

I certainly like seeing fresh ideas being introduced. I also think that in this case Andy has did a excellent "presentation" almost as why it is what it is.

But, I sure like the idea of a cold beer at lunch time.

Here’s a thought, work on getting some of the dealers back that supply Die-cast and Scenery supplies etc. Hold modeling seminars for those of us interested in these things. EDTCA could take a lesson from the Fine Scale show in Maryland 4 times a year. There are quite a few suppliers that used to come to York that go there. It just seems that EDTCA has lost a lot of vendors and they are not coming back.

I did not hear anything that has not been discussed before over the last couple of decades (twice a year).

I think if you want to make a difference, volunteer to help out.  They need a lot of volunteers to plan for and run the meet.  Maybe some of you here can volunteer to run a seminar.  

Since the “Big E” is a trade show for all scales, not a mostly O meet, I wonder if they get corporate sponsorship?

Same old, same old, same old.

Some interesting points made in the video. All suggestions are welcomed and appreciated.

*I can go along with having layouts spread around the buildings at York. But to me it sounds like it’s just moving the furniture around. I’m not sure that would help increase attendance. Maybe a few more layouts but I know it’s not easy setting up.

*Who doesn’t like a party!?  But in the video it was mentioned that some attendees just went there for the food and drinks and to have a day out. Hard to gauge how those there just for something to do affects sales at the show or future sales. I’d think the vendors and members selling at York would prefer people shopping their tables. If not shopping the tables, that helps no one.

*No need to expand on non member attendance and the tax implications. But in that vein of thinking I’ve always advocated for holding the York Meet Friday through Sunday. I don’t know what the hurdles are to do that but I believe it would increase attendance somewhat.

*While offering comparisons and suggestions for York, Art mentions that he doesn’t think he’ll attend Amherst again. Because of distance or variety or quality of the show? Just thought it was interesting to offer suggestions to make York like Amherst but not planning to go to Amherst again. Nothing wrong with that though.

I give Art an A for effort. My opinion is, I agree #1 will not increase attendance besides they already have layouts in more than one Hall. Last York I saw a layout in the Black Hall, Purple Hall, Orange Hall and White Hall. Number 2 is a good suggestion. Getting more food choices certainly wouldn't hurt anything. However, I have heard many folks on this forum say what a good time they had at York meeting and seeing friends and going out to eat at York, etc very similar to what Art said he heard folks saying at the Big E. Number 3 is out of the question as explained above.

"Hold modeling seminars for those of us interested in these things." This is the suggestion I like. I am always interested in learning more about the hobby or the prototype. Many years ago there was a seminar done by Jim Policastro and it was excellent. I really enjoyed it and would certainly welcome something similar.

The two shows are different. The Big E is an all scales trade show while York is mainly an O gauge/S gauge collector meet. Why try to make one into the other? I say let's just try to make York more successful so it can keep going.

@Hudson J1e posted:

"Hold modeling seminars for those of us interested in these things." This is the suggestion I like. I am always interested in learning more about the hobby or the prototype. Many years ago there was a seminar done by Jim Policastro and it was excellent. I really enjoyed it and would certainly welcome something similar.

While not a modeling seminar, there will be a Base3 event hosted by yours's truly on Friday in the Verandah Room at 10:30 on Friday.  I was asked to do an hour long event about Base3 by the EDTCA so they are looking to do things that are of interests to folks.  I would encourage those with any skill that they would like to share to contact the EDTCA as they are trying to make York more than just a meet by presenting little events like this and the YouTube meeting.

Something very important to consider if you think about putting layouts in all halls. To make room to accommodate those layouts, you have to remove many existing table holders. I will speak for myself, I am very content where I am and have been for years. Plus we are among friends that we have come to know along the way. And previous customers know where to find us. About the party idea. If you want to party with members, there is plenty of time to do that during evenings. I think the division has brought about many things that gives the opportunity to gather or party with other members. It's not a party, it's a Train Meet.

Your right DAVE.

York and Amherst are different.  Switching York to Friday - Sunday may not bring more visitors.

Having more operating layouts at York displaces vendors.

The date for Amherst is marginal for weather - out of area people have to commit in advance and may be snowed out.

Anything can be improved, but I love York just how it is. It's a fun topic though!

@cbq9911a posted:

Having more operating layouts at York displaces vendors.

Unfortunately there seems to be more and more empty spaces in the halls so this may not be an issue but I suspect you would want the operating displays in a high traffic area where the public can go on the days they can attend.

I agree that it's always good to suggest ideas.  You never know what will stick.

I really like selling trains at York. Keep in mind when it comes to time to do it I price them to sell unlike a lot of dealers/sellers. I'm probably overdue to clean out my collection and York is still a good way to do it in one shot.

I could care less about the operating layouts to tell the truth. I take a peek at one or two but I'm mostly there to hunt trains. Also don't care about Lionel being there nor will I miss any of the dealers selling new production at full retail plus. Bring the blowouts, not that blackbonnet bs.

@cbq9911a posted:

York and Amherst are different.  Switching York to Friday - Sunday may not bring more visitors.

That's been discussed a lot.  I'm not sure - I like it the way it is.  When I was working, I would take a couple of days off - a good use of my hard-earned vacation time.  Allowing Saturday afternoon and Sunday for travel is helpful for folks who need to get to work on Monday.

Having more operating layouts at York displaces vendors.

Not a problem, as there has been a reduction in vendors as our demographic ages.  Having trains running encourages participation by showing what can be done and it increases social interaction.  IMO, this is one of the greatest improvements at York in recent years.

The date for Amherst is marginal for weather - out of area people have to commit in advance and may be snowed out.

That's the main reason I've never gone.  I recently traveled to visit Trainstock; I had been putting it off for many years due to concerns about weather - it turns out that my return flight left Newark just hours before a major storm.  It's just the nature of the beast - winter is "train season".

comments above

Hard to put a number on it, but is seems that  there is a consensus that there are about 250,000 U.S. folks into model trains of all scales, out of 330+ million (.07% of the total) .  So, any kind of meet, sale, or scheduled event, and most of them are basically regional, are lucky to get a percentage of that number to show up.  To judge the current popularity of an interest, all you have to do is look at all the gray headed men vs everyone else that show up.  The same scenario is repeated in all hobby venues where the primary part of the hobby is the time, dexterity, and money to make something that is central to the hobby,

I like York the way it is now.  I've got 5+ weeks of vacation so going for the whole week works for me.  And I've got other things to do in the area.

One thing York could do is to be for "all model railroading interests".  It's useful for the smaller groups in the hobby to physically get together.  I've run conventions for another group.  A small gathering of 60 people with activities has a turnover - total costs - of $ 20,000.00.  Big money.

York provides a framework that a smaller group can link to.  Eastern Division TCA provides the infrastructure; the group can add supplemental events.  Having a group dinner is less risky than doing everything.

@Frank Mulligan posted:

Move the meet to Delaware.  No sales tax!

Great idea!  Now, who will volunteer to research a suitable facility to make it happen? Anyone?

Who in the state of Delaware is willing to volunteer and organize the project?

@Mallard4468 posted:

I hope that ED is listening, as another longstanding issue is that ED has historically been unwilling to make even small changes to the meet - look how long it took to allow cell phones and cameras.

I think part of this was the "old guard" vs. new blood coming into leadership in the EDTCA.  The old rules existed for reasons, and as the nature of the hobby and membership has changed, so have the rules.  Since I joined back in '08, gone are the two-signature, no-strollers, no-cell-phone, and no-cameras rules.  The EDTCA has been changing -- online registration, pre-registration, 6-month trial memberships, the welcoming party, and the Purple Hall Pre-Show are all proof, and for the positive, IMHO.

Personally, I think that they have been taking a good measured approach to change.  Change in this instance has to be good for the EDTCA first, TCA membership second, and the vendors, table holders, and attendees tied for third as they all depend on each other, with none taking preference over another.

Andy