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Dear Train Folks:

There has been a lot of discussion and concern as to whether the factory closings in China of late are affecting our planning or production. The answer is, always, but we are prepared. That's my job, to make sure we can weather the unexpected storms.

We do most of our manufacturing with Korean owned factories in Eastern China and Korea and one of our suppliers is run by a Chinese American. They have the expertice to make Brass and Aluminum models, but they are a bit expensive. And if you squeeze them too much for lower prices they will go out of business. So it takes some give and take to keep them solvent and in good fincial condtion.

That means sometimes you have to raise your prices to ensure the project gets done.... Period... We have been accused of this, but it is necessary.

We usually have 4 or more sources for our models and never load up one of them with too much or we risk what others importers are experiencing right now (too many eggs in one basket). You never know when there will be a decision to close a factory, you just have to be prepared. This has been going on since we started Sunset Models in 1974.

For example, in 1992-94 Williams was making the PRR S-2 Turbine with a small Korean factory called Hyodong. The factory was slow in producing and Big L cataloged the same engine from their factory in Korea, Samhongsa (used to be Sunset Models main supplier, then Lionel, then MTH, then out of business, resurfaced as TOP TRAIN, now closed).

Back to Hyodong... Williams let their LC expire since Hyodong was late in delivering and the small factory went bankrupt. Williams took their production to China at that point. The bank put locks on the factory door in Korea and put up the material for sale in Korea.

My father's builder contacted us and said he could offer a good price to the bank, get the materials and make the project for us. So we agreed and 3rd Rail was born... We finished the PRR S-2 Turbine, upgraded the gearbox, motor and sound system. The model was a hit and we continued to build 3 Rail models with this new builder for another 5 years. PRR I-1 and others.

Why do they go out of business so often? Mismanagement of funds, greed, dishonesty, poor planning, all of these contribute to their demise. We offer them stability, but in return we want stable prices and a flow of pruduct as well. It doesn't last long, they usually self distruct with in 5 years and we have to move on to another supplier. It has been this way since we started.

The big suppliers in China are a new phenomenon. They are well managed, lots of burocracy, some are direct to distributors like Bachmann of Kadarr. But when they fall, they take many other companies with them, that were dependent on their exellent engineering, low prices and easy financing. It never lasts very long. Labor prices are dictated by Gov here, and go up 25% a year. That is not sustainable. Most new laws are pro labor and anti business. So the factories at some point see no reason to continue and close. I see this trend continuing. One of our Korean builders is setting up in Manila. Now that is exciting news.

So every time I come to Korea and China, I talk to new suppliers, learn what is happening around us, keep my ears and eyes open for trouble and act accordingly.

We have many projects planned for the future. The schedules are a little uncertain. But what is certain, is that we will be around to produce these and service you in your hobby for many years to come.

Thanks for all your wonderful support over the years.

P.S. If you want to try your hand at importing model trains, don't send cash...

Regards,

Scott Mann
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Scott,
Thanks for all that info, it's nice to know you're on top of things.

Question, do the factory workers end up going/moving from one small company to another? The contractors I dealt with when I worked for the government often did that. Whenever one contractor lost a contract the employees would just move over to the contract winner the next week.

Wasn't the old term for machinists that would move around within the machine shop system - "Jobbers"?
quote:
Originally posted by cbojanower:
I guess I always wonder how does it being a communist govt work with wages and such. You mention some workers are paid more, does the govt set the wages? do they have unions? Does the govt take a big chunk of the wages? And who actually owns the factories


Think of the US from the 1870 - 1910. There are lots of differences but the main one is the gov't will side with workers over business; kinda like Teddy Roosevelt did. So the government is the union. Their accounting system isn't, so how much people are paid and taxes depend on who is doing the counting at any given time and place.

Richard
John "Pecos River Brass" Smith's articles on importing from Korea in the earliest issues of OST -- which are conveniently online -- are an excellent tutorial on the hazards and "fun" of importing, in his case from Korea, brass models. [ I also think they're the most interesting articles that have ever appeared in OST, but that's just my opinion.]

Best, SZ

Edited to add: If any of you are wondering what "LC" in the initial post stands for, it's "Letter of Credit". Think of it as a sort of escrow account, the money for the builder being held by a bank until [ valid ] shipping documents are provided showing "what's ordered" shipped. Items shipped from the US for export are sometimes on an L/C too.
We used to use the LCs exclusively to protect ourselves, but now since the banking disaster banks won't allow anyone over there to borrow against LCs to fund projects, so now the importer has to actually wire money in advance of a project. This can be very hazardous. This is another reason why I keep such a close eye on my builders, to make sure the money I give them is actually going into production.

One funny story: On my first trip to Korea with Dad in 1996, we made a surpise visit to see one of the small builders that was making some HO models for us. Mort had openned the LC 4 months prior and progress was seemingly slow. We arrived, and the builder was in his downstairs office, with his feet on the desk smoking a cigarrette. When we walked in he seemed very surprised and not smiling much at all. He knew exactly why we were there and jumped up to greet us. After some small talk he took us upstairs, and there was the evidence. He had been borrowing on our LC to fund a project for Precision Scale Company. He thought he could just quickly get it out of the way and collect on PSC before finishing our project. Later he was caught drunk driving and threatened an officer and went to Jail. His business was transferred to his sister in law and she ran it in the basement of her apartment building for 10 years with the original man as the chief engineer. They made the best O Scale models for us... But eventually thier loans were called and they quickly went out of business. And the guy we started with, went back and formed a small business again. He again made many great models for us, but we have to watch him like a hawk. The GN M-2 was the last one and it took him almost 2 year to produce it due to the bank and financing problems. I should write a book about it...

Scott
As the owner of three engines from Sunset 3rd Rail I feel extremely fortunate that Scott has been able to import such a wide variety of products from China and Korea given the amount of anxiety and intrigue that goes on there. From my perspective Scott has a stomach made of cast iron and the determination of a bulldog. Its now quite obvious to me, and I hope those who contribute to this forum, the amount of work and endless trips it takes to the Far East to produce any of these models.

Based on Scott's stories from the Far East I think 3rd Rail models are an absolute bargain for us here in the USA. Importing brass models from Japan 30+ years ago was an absolute breeze compared to what apparently goes on today half way around the world. Gone are the days of Westside Models, US Hobbies, KTM, United, and many others who manufactured fabulous looking models for far less money and far less hassel.

I promise I will never complain about product delays again - period.

Bravo Scott bravo!
Far less money? My first brass locomotive was a Max Gray MT-4. It cost $229 in 1962, and coincidentally my airplane cost $1300 that same year. I believe an MT-4 is worth maybe $1200 today - a factor of six.

My airplane is worth thirty grand today - same one - and I think salaries are up by a factor of ten. As far as O Scale brass is concerned, we have it as good as it has ever been.

Opinion, mostly.
bob2,
I could have bought a Piper Tri-Pacer in 1972 for the same as I paid for my 1970 Opel GT, $3600 (My dad said I could have bought 2 Ford F-150s for the same price!)!

Minimum wage in 1962 - $1.10

Minimum wage in 1973 - $1.60

Minimum wage in 2011 - $7.25

Except for what Kohs engines are going for these days, most of what I see seems reasonable and the quality of the detailed parts seems way better.

I think the thing about communist China is that their main thing was making sure everyone was treated fairly the same. I always thought that's what it was all about, everyone being on the same level (for the worker bees anyway). In practice we all have seen that ain't so, but it does seem the GOV tries to keep the businesses honest and equal when it comes to dealing with employees and they will come down hard when they find someone who isn't playing the game correctly.
Thank You Scott, as you know I along with many others love to speculate about to cost of building toy trains and where is the best place to have that work done. But, the hard fact is that most of us only know what we read and hear from the news media. Well, it's nice for a change to get some inside information on the problems you face on a daily basses.

All I can say is thank you and please keep up the good work bringing us some of the finest toy train products on the market. Cool



Good Thread Thanks
quote:
...what surprises me is how little understanding most folks have about Asia and China in particular.

How right you are, Dave! I spent a number of years in Asia myself--virtually all countries except China (not open to us at the time)--and I am continually amazed at how little most Americans, in particular, know or understand about those various cultures and their people.
quote:
I am continually amazed at how little most Americans, in particular, know or understand about those various cultures and their people.

With 3 teenagers under my roof, and my first exposure to the secondary public education system, I am not at all surprised. All primary and secondary public education is currently based on passing standardized testing, not creating well rounded individuals through exposure to the rest of the world.

In my opinion, the US education system's main fault is that it teaches isolationism because it centers too much on the US and does not expose anyone to other cultures.

Europe is farther ahead in this regard. To the best of my knowledge, most Europeans can speak at least one language other than their native tongue and they are taught this from their first day of school. They basically have to because the country next door likely has a different language altogether.

Fred
quote:
But, the hard fact is that most of us only know what we read and hear from the news media.


LOL!

Mario, some folks on here only get their facts from their LHS or from rumors started here Eek

I think you guys are right though. Americans believe that everyone else on this planet tries to copy us and that we're the "yardstick by which all others are measured" when in fact our ideology is in the minority.

Last time I went to Italy I helped a lady with a baby stroller down the front steps (her husband was 50 feet in front of her). She said thank you in 3 different languages before she got to English! I believe she was German because someone told me it was the German "Holiday" that week.
Scott,

Your description of how the different levels of workers 'sell' their expertise along with the description of the factory owners would have been (and I'm sure still are in this day & age) perfect examples to use in college (and some high school) classrooms of how pure, unregulated capitalism can control workplaces. Of course, the fact that this is happening in one of the last bastions of communism would have some of my old economic professors scratching their heads. One of my more enjoyable Business Administration classes was an Economics course taught by 3 different profs with distinctly different points of view. It made for some rather spirited discussions which of course brought in all the other aspects of how society worked.

I would imagine that the same sort of discussions ate occurring in China & S. Korea as they draw closer and closer in more & more what used to make them different. As you're most likely aware, 'hard' economic competition sometimes leads to equally 'hard' confrontation if open channels aren't maintained. I wonder what course (s) of action N. Korea's new leadership is thinking about taking because of all this?

Bill
While China's government bureaucracy is based on Communist theory, the economy has really transitioned to Fascism. As both Communist and Fascist economies require a Totalitarian State, this was an easy fit for China to slide over to.

FASCISM

Those of you steeped in the lore of Toy Trains will remember that some of Lionel's most admired tooling was created in another such state in the 1930's.

In fact, Joseph Bonanno's daughter told me that she still admires Italy under Mussolini (except for that part about teaming up with the Nazis).

The question will become: how will an increasingly affluent and educated work-force deal with a Totalitarian state?

Jon Cool
Scott

It is pretty amazing what you and Mike Wolfe ( oh I guess Lionel too) must do to get these trains made and shipped. So while I don't like to pay higher prices I understand that these are not made for free even with lower labor costs.

Still though it would be nice to have this stuff made here in the USA if this country's manufacturing should ever decide to come back.

And manufacturing WILL come back here; but I cannot say how that could happen unless I want this thread to close in short order.
Wow Jon your link to Doctor Britt's 14 Characteristics of Fascism is a little scary when we look at what's going on today. I printed a copy for my son to read, I think it is an eye opener. Thank You!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill, I think many of our fellow Americans are into acquiring stuff and really don't give a hoot about quality or how long something will last. People buy cloths they will never wear, housewares they will never use and yes, in our case toys that remain in the box unopened.

There was a fellow in my neighborhood who had a collection of those fancy eggs. They where all over his house. They where on the mantel, dining room table, coffee table, end tables, they where all over the place. I never saw the rest of the house but the guy told me that what I saw was only part of his collection.

In another case a train dealer that I know was asked by one of his customers sister to clean out his apartment after the man past away. The place was full floor to ceiling with boxs of HO trains. From what I was told there where path ways through the rooms but for the most part it was all HO trains. Most of the stuff was odds and ends he picked up at train shows that where thrown loose in any box he could find.

In both cases I wonder if these two guys even had an inventory of what they had.

People today wont tons of stuff and they wont it cheap. Not so they can spend money on more important things but so they can have the funds to accumulate more stuff.

Americans are no longer just consumers, we have become a nation of accumulators.

In fact, if we all cleared out of our homes all the junk we never use at the same time it would take our trash collectors six months to catch up, if ever.
Our local high school had 16 or 17 exchange students from China last year. The student our daughter housed has no intention of going back. My daughter said she was told by other parents who housed them that the majority of them felt that way. Apparently the U.S. is still looked upon as the land of opportunity by the Chinese.
.....
Dennis

P.S. I guess I am one of the lucky ones. All of the MTH products I have bought over the past 12 years have been excellent quality and performed as advertised right out of the box.
Scott wrote about something that intrigued me.

Apparently the factories are more than willing to take in a housewife or college kid and with a bit of on the spot training, just enough to do something good on the line for a day or week etc just by walking in.

Here in the United States we go through such a painful and tortuous hiring process akin to Colon exams and workers (Non union part time) and employers are at will.

You cannot really walk in to a work place and hop to it under a foreman, the closest we can do that is by becoming a Temp worker who then is... treated rather different because said temp worker when the job is done; clocks out and goes home for the day no matter the hour.

If we can see employers around the USA do the same as they do overseas by simply taking in people who wish to work a little or learn a trade without having to feel committed or bound I think things will improve.

I think back to the industrial age and we had children and teenagers due to their agility and manual keen of nerve and eye for rather specific work. Today I see robots capable of inhuman precision.
SCOTT-THANK YOU FOR GIVING US A INSIGHT IN THE MANUFACTURING OF OUR TRAINS IN CHINA,FROM YOUR DESCRIPTION OF OPERATIONS IT SEEMS IT IS STILL CHEAPER AND
BETTER TO MAKE TOY TRAINS IN THE ORIENT THAN THE US.
I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE US REGULAIONS AND COSTS YOU WOULD HAVE TO FACE TO
MAKE TRAINS HERE IN AMERICA.
MOST OF THE JOBS HERE IN FLORIDA PAY MINIMUM WAGE WITH NO HEALTH INSURANCE.
YOU WOULD SAVE ON SHIPPING OVER THE PACIFIC OCEAN.I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A COMPARISON PRICEV RATE.THANK YOU AGAIN FOR THE MOST INTERESTING ARTICLE
ON THIS HOBBY.
If we can see employers around the USA do the same as they do overseas by simply taking in people who wish to work a little or learn a trade without having to feel committed or bound I think things will improve.

Lee, they're called day workers and it happens all the time in the Landscaping, Warehousing and to some degree Contracting industries. Probably others as well.

Then ask this: As a business owner, how can one plan to sustain their operation when they do not know if the employee they had yesterday will be there today? Or if the person walking through the door is honest, let alone reliable?

As a business owner I'd not want that route at all.
Chris, from what I understand you have a business involving perodic deadlines which must be regularly met.

What little I know about importing trains, the trains get here when they get here, period. No real deadlines.

Casual workers may be an economic need if vendor supplied widgets have delayed arrival. It does not seem reasonable that say an order of 400 units of whatever actually takes (fill in the number) months/years to build.

Gots ta be a bunch of speed bumps in the process. Maybe no way to supply work on a regular basis for a whole crew. tt
US Jobs and Trains:

I think Weaver Models is the only model train company prepared to make trains in the US readily. Joe Hayder and I had discussed this at length (we stand next to each other at York 3 days every 6 months). We trade stories about how difficult these builders can be. I say, support Joe (Weaver Models) in any project they are producing in the US, and ignore the extra 20% in price (if there is one), so he can do what most of you ask, make models in the US. It will cost more for new tooling and production but it will keep jobs here. (plastic) Maybe he can put the regular price with a US Jobs Incentive (20% added). Just a thought.

As for brass production, long ago, PSC under the direction of Dave Bush, brought Koreans over and housed them so they could work on brass castings and other projects in his CA facility in the 1970s.

The importers of the day, KEY, Westside and my father, would buy his castings and bring them to Korea and Japan to have them applied to the models. Eventually, the factories in Korea made their own casting master patterns. One such company is OSC, Mr. Oh. He and my father were good buddies for many years. I enjoyed getting to know his Son and watching them change their model train casting factory from trains to musical instrument keys for Yamaha and other manufactures. These guys are masters at making lost wax castings of every kind.

They make the trucks for Wasatch and do other small projects for others.

PSC still makes their own brass castings as well in the US for over 35 years. BRAVO!!!

But the rest of the brass steam engine production process is more like an art form and is rather complicated, requiring experienced designers, pattern makers and sample model makers. They basically build a sample from scratch in the beginning to prove a design. It can be done in the US, but the complexities of making drivers and plating and painting chemicals that might not be allowed in certain areas might cause problems for setting up a facility in the US. And you would have to import the expertice from Korea to start the process.

The main Chinese managers I wrote about earlier have been with the same company for over 12 years. They are masters of this art form. We would have to duplicate that effort in the states just to get started.

I really enjoy project management and working with the artists overseas and watching these amazing models come to life from 2D drawings and photographs.

So when you look at one of your Sunset / 3rd Rail models and think to yourself, how did Scott do that? I have a lot of help over here with folks sending data and reviewing drawings, and over there with some of the most amazing artists in the business.

I hope you enjoyed learing a little bit about how this end of the train business works. It is a pleasure to be a part of it to get to know the customers who are so passionate about their hobby.

Enough mushy stuff... Carry on....

Scott Mann
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