3rd Rail - Sunset Models and China Factories Closing

TimDude,

What he meant was they were built strong, figuratively speaking and not literally speaking, look here:

 http://www.warbirdinformatione...ewtopic.php?p=350978

I don't need to look anywhere, I spent 25+ years working on warbirds, I know how they'er built, I just get tired of supposed history experts (them, I'm not accusing you) misleading people. If that is what they meant to say then they should said it that way and not mislead people using an incorrect engineering term. I determined long ago if they are that incorrect on something I do know, how can I trust them to tell me about something I do not know that much about? 

Boy, this whole thread sure went off the track!

What does all this have to do with 3RS modeling, anyway?

I remember reading that the US factory output is still higher than China, just using 1/10th the workers because of automation. So production in the US is still there, just not the jobs in the factories.

For Brass model trains, there was never production in the US. It is a boutique industry where artisans make these models, pretty much the same way for the last 40 years. Only now, the Koreans are the artisans, and the Chinese are the unskilled labor putting things together. Making brass models in the US would be futile IMHO. The average manager in China make $300 a week. The workers make 1200 RMB per month, or $200 / month. Americans won't work for and cannot survive on such wages. Let those who can survive on that, do those kinds of jobs. Just somthing to chew on. If our models were 3 X or 4X the price, we would not be able to sell as many, so even if they were made here, the market would be so much small that we couldn't afford to employ anyone. It's purely economics.

Scott - China

We have to separate fact from nostalgia. Fact... at the end of the war and during the 50s we were the only manufacturing power in the world. It really didn't matter what was produced since we were the only one doing it. Until we rebuilt Japan and Germany, they had no industrial might.

And what's made here is still terrific... just look at that little thing running around on Mars as an example of superb manufacturing, engineering and design. The problem is that the only real manufacturing might we have is in defense and aerospace, not consumer goods.

We still make the finest aircraft bar none. The F-35 is a marvel. It's engine is a work of art. I could go on and on.

One of our significant challenges and problems is how we view the role of a company in the USA. In every company I've ever worked in or consulted with, the prime directive was to make money for the owner/shareholders. There was no statement about providing employment for society. Thus as soon as a turn down happens or is even threatened, the knee-jerk reaction is to lay off humans. Right now Lockheed Martin is laying people off BEFORE the government cuts any defense spending. It's a new tactic called Pre-emptive layoffs.

This is not the case in Germany where there are TWO prime directives. The first, like ours, is to make money for owners/shareholders, but there is a second. The second directive is to provide employment for the society since they recognize that without employment the society withers. 

This shows up operationally in this way. While we shed millions of highly talented workers in this recession (including me), the Germans put their folks on 4-day workweeks and put them through upgrade training on the fifth day. Then, as the economy turned around, they didn't lose a single skilled worker and were immediately in action. Why couldn't we have done this? Because we do not value employment or employees and something important in its own right, just as a means to create wealth. I suggested this to my employer in 2008, but was greeted with a response that it was "too difficult to alter working hours, and was simpler to just fire people."

I still believe that slowly Americans are waking up to the connection between full-employment and a vibrant middle class. Hopefully, it's not too late.

Surely "Built like a Brick... Outhouse"  has a meaning other than the literal.

Hey Hot - this has little to do with trains, because the thread drifted. Scott has given us definitive information, leaving little to discuss about production of fine models for the small community of train nuts.

I line up with Trainman2001 above.  I think we need to expand the duties of corporation management to include constituencies other than shareholders.  Bear in mind that in saying that, I am expressing a philosophy, not a fact.

I really liked Mort Mann, and am delighted that Scott could continue the buainess and still provide really good models at an affordable price.  I would guess that now is the time to stock up on the models you want.  Prices and quality will take a turn for the worse as the new low wage country is brought up to speed.

The flaws in my Ford Ranger are all engineering and management flaws.  The construction and external appearance are beyond criticism.  Our working class knows how to build stuff.

Exactly, and as the younguns say...nuf said.

just look at that little thing running around on Mars

The new one isn't so little.   It's the size of an SUV :-)

True! But it's still cute and looks a lot like Wall-e based on its self-portrait. It should have two eyes, not one.

Just to add on to this comment.  Germans are also less concerned about corporate quarterly profits and focus on the longer term.  They also have mastered the apprenticeship approach, and have no shortage of skilled workers.

Jim

My take is that Germany views itself as a Country AND Economy with policy designed to benefit both.  

Regarding Lockheed, I worked for them for about 12 years. Great company, fine people. Interesting work, very leading edge.

My first management meeting, my first week, my first real job... at 22 years old, with only my old car and old stereo from school as my assets, at the height of gov defense spending in 1986... The subject of the meeting was, "Engineering Layoffs". I was terrified from the start. What if I get laidoff? I just started, no seniority... nothing to brag about on my resume to get another job.

Well, I discovered at every salary increase period, they put out memo's of how many 1000s of engineers needed to be shed, and when you got your 2% raise for the year, you were happy to be employed. My tactic in response was to keep interviewing at every opportunity. I had head hunters calling, setting up dinner interviews, breakfast interviews, anything to keep my options open. I acted as if I was unemployed.

I ended up not going to any of these other companies, but instead jumped ship when the company was moving to Palmdale, and opted for Lockheed Sunnyvale as a paid transfer. Always loved N. California anyway.

When Lockheed bought Loral and joined with Martin, the slogan was, "Lo Mor al". They had 175,000 employees at that point. It was easy to get lost.

My project in Sunnyvale ended after a year and a half and I was thrown into central engineering where I knew no one, not even my supervisor. We had to basically interview for new positions within the company, and you had to find them yourself. I took whatever I could find and self trained myself in C++ so I could get into a group of programmers for a new defensive missle program. Thank God my code wasn't used, it would have never worked....

Later I found work at a sub contractor that supplied targets for the defensive missle, and I was back doing what I knew. But in a subcontractor of only 50 people, I often sat with the President having coffee, discussing the direction of the company. Then I knew, I really wasn't long for engineering, I wanted to run a company myself. 2 more job jumps and I new I was done with all the malarky, and asked Dad if I could work with him to build up Sunset Models. What a relief that was, to not have to worry about layoffs.... But now, I have 100s of bosses, and if I screw up, it comes right out of my pocket. There are so many pot holes, and pit falls, that it is a wonder anyone can stay in business. Business is much harder than I ever expected and a lot less profitable.

Why am I ranting on about this... No reason, just my person experience that got me to this point. When the models come out good, I get praise. Making people happy is the biggest kick. But you are only as good as your last project. You have to be so careful. So I watch over these projects to make sure we don't get dumped on. And you, our customers get what you expect. That is what keeps us going.

Along the way, I am learning about doing business in Asia. It is facinating, and I happy to shed light on what is going on here for those of you who do not have the opportunity to see it first hand. To me it is second nature now. I just know what to do and say to get things done after doing this for so long. But things do change quickly and looking back at my days at Lockheed, it sure was nice getting paychecks every 2 weeks...

I can see things changing for the worse for foreign owned businesses in China. But there are many other places one can go. It's just a matter of time.

I am enjoying the debate. Very interesting input. It's about trains, and how to get them made. For me, the thread is builing the foundation of understanding that helps everone understand what it takes to make the models for your hobby.

Scott Mann

Glad to hear from you,Scott. I worked the Minuteman III missile system in the 70s as a launch officer for the Air Force. I can synpathize with you. It was a thankless job and I was get to finish my tour and get discharged honorably. You mentioned Boo Rim moving to the Phillipines. He just put out an HO model of the Jawn Henry for around $2750.00.  Yours is coming out for 2/3 that price (in O scale)-and this is to be commended.  I already have my order in!Why is the HO current brass market so high?  Is it a matter of numbers produced?

Toyota has a truck assemble plant near San Antonio TX.

Cameries are assembled here, and exported to Japan.

Now model trains here.  Bugs Bunny would say:  "Nah!"

Me too - I was a radar systems engineer for ten years.  Could not bear the thought of flying a desk, took a giant pay cut, and became an airline pilot.  Used to be a good way of making a living.  I wound up in an Airbus 320.  My old company tried to hire me back.  No way.

Spent the day in a light aircraft over Colo and NM with a student.  He has a hundred employees in the Phillipines, 27 in China, and offices in Tel Aviv and here. I do not really know what he does, but he says it takes 100 Phillipine workers to do the job of 80, and it takes 27 Chinese workers to do the work of 27 workers.

I am retired.  I admire Scott and his efforts to bring us all this nice stuff.  I am glad I do not have to fight the system any more.  I was horrified as we got on the airline yesterday - it looked like a peaceful version of an insurrection at the check points.  I have never seen anything like it.  I have free travel bennies with USAir, and hope never to see another airline terminal as long as I live.  I do not envy our young citizens.

I am actually having a great time, frittering away my retirement on forums.  I still fly over 400 hours a year, teach patent and corporation law, and build Cab Forwards when I am not fooling with the iPad.

I decided 10 years ago that I would not voluntarily check into gestapo concentration camps and that's what I consider airports now.  I have flown only once since on my employer's nickel and time.  If I can't go by train or car or ship it's not worth going.

Well, that makes two of us... 

...and I finished my last 15 years of GM traveling to Europe, Australia, Japan, SE Asia...as well as ping-ponging across the continental US.  It was 'tolerable' then, but...

No more. Nada. Zip.

BTW...Thanks, Scott, for ALL you do for our hobby!

Travel by Megabus is ok with me.....if need be, the big dog!

Scott, shay shay for your hard work, did you ever concider trying out Mexico on the NAFTA express, or are they for the fortune 500 guys only.

I decided 10 years ago that I would not voluntarily check into gestapo concentration camps and that's what I consider airports now.

When I worked for Uncle Sam they gave us a regular and a Government passport.  Then they said DON'T get caught with the Government passport in your possession!!!  Instant spy status I guess.

Most foreign airports I went thru had large numbers of "security" forces walking around with a wide assortment of weaponry, and didn't seem shy about using it.

I think I've flown once since 9/11, didn't think I'd have to take my sneakers off 3 times at Corpus Christi airport, and that was when I was leaving!

Well im to the point that most stuff from china is junk.-dont last long..Id bought a new BLI PRR Q2.. I'd wanted it real badly when it first came out in 2010. then lastyear BLI did a second run on it.  I got one.. Well I'd had troubles with it after a week. Smoke unit went to **** and had electronic proublems too.  Thought I might had a bad engine.. I'd went threw 3 of them with the same proubles!!This was made in China! Got upset and said the **** with it !! Said If I'm going to spend 520.00 on a Ho train I'm moving up to O scale!  Easyer and bigger to work on..I only got 2 O scale trains,1 3rd rail S2 turbine and the other is the S1 duplex... Got deal on them..getting back to the BLI Q2.. I did a youtube video compairing BLI Q2=china made to my west side brass Q2=Korean made.  Westside had more details and deeper details the the BLI. and it was made thicker too... If westside was still around and put all the good electronics in it,That baby would be the best well made Q2..Koreans Brass is very well made compaired to slap happy china stuff is..People want stuff made fast and now,the proublem is your sacurficing quallity! Id reather have stuff made back when quality met somthing back then... If 3rd Rail was smart they should have there stuff made by the Koreans ..

Seems the worst airport to get through with my travels was CRP!

Coming back from China to Korea on this trip home, I was singled out for a complete search of my bags. They were looking for something...  What they found was a perscription for sleeping pills, which I rarely use. They presented me with a list of banned drugs and that was one of them. They said, just present this form with these instructions and you can pick up your perscription on your way home.

3 Days later I did just that... They wanted $20 for my trouble, so I said, "You take the pills..." I go home.... Such a silly system. At least they don't throw you in jail for perscription drugs. Be careful...

Yes, security is intrusive and annoying, but the alternative of riding your seat down to the ocean from 35,000 feet because of some Yahoo's political or religious problem, it makes me happy that they are carefully searching everyone. I am sure it has helped keep us all a little safer.

I have my routine, putting all my pocket belongings in my backpack, whip out my laptop, shoes, belt (oops, can't hold my pants up...) and zip through the metal detector...

When I fly United back from Seoul or Beijing, they process you at the door of the plane, and go through all your carry on AGAIN... I really like when they do that... nothing gets by them. Then I can relax... and my only worry is if there is an empty seat next to me or not, or some screaming baby, or if there is going to big turbulence or what not.

Travel is still amazing, getting in a seat and 12 hours later you are on the other side of the world. When in history could man more easily travel?  Sure security is annoying and intrusive, but the alternative is unthinkable horror.

I still like to travel. But flight cancellations is what really gets to me. Has only happened 2 times in the last 15 years.

A wandering thread this is....

Scott

The absolute safest society is one with no freedom.  I believe the world is not populated with more dangerous people (percentage-wise) than at previous times.  

I agree with reasonable security, but when I was flying for a living i was carefully scrutinized in front of my passengers, while knowing that fuelers and caterers did not go through security and did not get the kinds of background checks that aircrews did.

In a democracy, we decide as a group.  Scott's outlook on security has captured the majority, and as a member of this society, I accept that viewpoint, am happy to have the freedom to disagree, and overjoyed that I can avoid the whole mess.  I hope Amtrak can be convertd to a real transportation system without the massive security we all love so much.

On the Q2 a couple of posts above - in my opinion if you want a rugged, fairly accurate Q2 in O Scale, Scott's offering is probably one of the best.  It is ruggedly constructed, runs well, and is, to my eye, reasonably faithful to the prototype.  The few Westside models I have seen have not been what I would consider rugged.

Every single word above is personal opinion, and intended to be respectful of others' opinions.

On the Q2's.. this when I was into Ho's..I still would love to have a Q2 in HO form..The sadest thing on getting into O scale is the room/space factor.  im lucky my father inlaw is going to let me setup a track going around the livingroom floor running next to the wall..On the westside I see they made a O scale Q2.. I'd had there Ho and was better construcked and very detailed then the BLI's Q2.. Yes I would love to get the 3rd rail Q2 I'd would even trade my S1 or S2 for one or maybe both..  The S2 was my favorite steamer even when I was growning up my grandpa had the lionals postwar S2..was my favorite train to play with.  Until I saw the Q2..4 years ago that when I did some resurch on PRR prototype steamers.. WOW I didnt know about some of them neighter..Now With today economey I cant aford a new train at 1000+,so I have to settel with a used one.. Missed out on 3rd rail Q2 for 450.00..If 3rd rail was smart they should have theKoreans make there trains!= better qualityof trains! Im not trying to knock on 3rd rail trains they have out now. But some about Korean made trains have more and better details on there trains.

Come to think of it, I think it was my years at Lockheed that prepared me for this extra security. They had us going through the same kind of scrutiny to access our country's sensitive things. So I just atribute it to a kind of protection, and not a release of my freedom. I am free to not take a flight and stay home, same with taking or not taking a job at Lockheed, where security was a requirement, everyday.

Each time I went into the building, the Guard had to see my badge, even if I turned around to get something in the lobby and go back through, he had to see my badge. No exceptions, no arguing, it was the rule.

If my boss was with me, and he forgot his badge, he couldn't get in, while I could. Them's the rules.

Just didn't bother me to play the game by the rules. I enjoyed working there, so I didn't want to rock the boat.

A pilot... is only a real pilot if they are really a pilot. How do you tell the difference between an imposter and a real pilot? They should check everyone, including the ground crew. Fast track them, so they don't go crazy, but check them.

I am sure there are a lot of holes in the system, but at least we are trying to be safe. I wouldn't fly if they didn't have rigourous security. It is no guarantee, but it is something.

Respectfully,

Scott 

scott who do I need to talk to at 3rd rail to order replacement parts for my S1 unskirted duplex? 

If you don't like the TSA, DO NOT FLY TO OR FROM ISREAL!  They check EVERYTHING!

And the landing planes lands miles from the terminal, and you have to catch a bus.  Military everywhere!

scott. could you give us an update on the  C&NW H1. 

Bob 2.  You mentioned several times in the past that Sunset's brass is more rugged than KTM's. I am curious to know what do you base this on. When it comes to construction of brass engines, I am somewhat of a novice. I use to think that KTM's were well constructed and they seemed heavier then Sunset's. But after you critiqued the Sunset GG-1, I was surprised how thick that brass was (.040 if I remember correctly). On what criteria do you base brass engine construction and how does a KTM Q-2 compare to a Sunset? I just bought a Sunset VA 2-10-10-2 and it is wonderful!!!!

I use a micrometer and check it in several places.  Most larger Sunset boilers are .032. Most larger KTM were.025.  My PSC Cab Forward left here with an .020 boiler, in trade for two KTMs.

My big disappointment was the smaller locomotives - almost all of them were done with thinner sheet metal.  The GG1 was stunning.  It left here after I reviewed it - I already have five.  When I make smaller steam, I use the same gauge metal as I do for the largest.  I still have a pair of GN electrics, which will get all axle power some day.

Thanks bob2.  What about frame construction?  I have noticed in the past that some locos have thicker frames (the vertical part) than others. Some large PSC engines (DM&IR Yellowstone) and Oriental Models G.N. R-2 had thinner frames than some older KTM's (Big Boy and Max Gray AC-4). Does this matter?

I've owned both Westside-KTM and Sunset 3rd Rail PRR Q2's. Both were solidly made and good runners.  For several years the KTM Q2 ran on my Fairfax, VA railroad negotiating 54" super elevated curves (and even a 50" radius non-super elevated hidden staging track).  I had to slightly thin the frame under the firebox to clear the rear trailing truck wheel.  I cast at 10 lb. lead weight which was sufficient to partially compress the springs - providing a measure of equalization that kept the lead driver from climbing the outside rail on tight curves.  The KTM Q2 was well made but had a flaw that really bugged me.  The tender was  2 scale feet short.  Unfortunatly this is a problem common with ALL MG/USH/WSM PRR long distance tenders.

  About  twenty years ago I traded the WSM Q2 to John Armstrong who modified it with a centered headlight for Canandaguia Southern service.  It ran well and pulled like a horse on his 54" curves and steep grades.

   When Sunset 3rd Rail brought out a PRR Q2 with a correct length tender I purchased one. Out of the box it nicely handled 54" radius curves (on the new Williamsburg railroad I have the basement width for broader curves). Some day I'll upgrade the model with few small details and add a shadow plate under the firebox so that one can't see through the  area over the trailing truck.  On the prototype the ash pan/hopper blocks the view. The "see through" look is a common on trailing truck equipped O scale steam locomotives when the same frame is used for both 2 and 3 rail versions.  To accommodate tight three rail curves they build the model to clear wide trailing truck swings - sometimes by having the frame under the firebox riding higher than the truck.  

Ed Rappe

Here is a more or less prototypical frame, strengthened to survive operation.  It comes in the Stevenson 0-6-0 kit:

An interesting update in October 2012: I got some interesting tid bits from my sources in China.

Kadarr - Manufacturer of Bachmann, Lifelike, AristoCraft and others... Labor problems, shut down a week before the Thanksgiving Holiday in China.

Bachmann Brass - Randolph Cheng: He was a producer of UK Brass models and was the builder for some US importers. He did a lot of direct sales behind the backs of his importers in the UK. He has retired.

A Major Manufacturer of Toys in ShenZhen (southern China), laid off 1/2 of their thousands of workers. I didn't catch the name, anyone know?

There are major labor problems going on everywhere in China now. 2 factors, lower exports due to a weaker Europe and too much increases in labor rates which are dictated by the gov.. This combination is causing a meltdown of jobs in China. Factories cannot lose money. They just close when they can't make payroll.

FoxConn - the manufacturer of I Phones in China, are reporting rioting among employees. This is probably a bigger deal that what we are seeing on the news. It is how the workers deal with layoffs, slowdowns, or labor unrest. It can get pretty violent when workers feel they are not being treated fairly. Anyone with more insight?

http://thenextweb.com/asia/201...xconn-factory-china/

So look for more disruptions... ONLY MY HUMBLE OPINION.

Anyone in the know, chime in. Curious to hear anyone elses observations.

Scott Mann

Far be it from me to know more about Chinese manufacturing than a person who goes there once a month. In my mind it is inevitable that China's manufacturing juggernaut would eventually begin to show signs of weakness. And since they are, in essence, a totalitarian government, things rarely are resolved through the rule of law, but through the use of force. Unfortunately, as bad as a China was that was growing at 5+% a year, a contracting angry China that needs to find a bogeyman to blame would be far, far worse. Be careful what we wish for. When you have massive unemployment, one of the best ways to deal with all those excess people is to start a land war in Asia. And as the great Vinzini in Princess Bride said, "that's one of the two greatest blunders." The other, of course, is make a bet with a Sicilian when "death is on the line!"

A North Carolina Cotton Yarn Spinner[one of only two majors left in the U.S.] told me recently that his company was now more competitive than producers in China. A key reason is the elimination of the labor differential due to technology improvements and higher quality and better raw material cost due to U.S. grown cotton[China, the world's largest raw cotton grower, also has open access to U.S. grown raw cotton but tend to buy on price alone which has major quality issues]. 

Twenty years ago U.S.A. Yarn Spinning was still extremely labor intensive[and, capital intensive] even produced with the then latest technology. But even so, continuous process manufacturing is very different from the "Job Shop" characteristics of Toy Train design and assembly. It is difficult to envision capital investment of any level that will eliminate the labor differential, as regards making toys, between the Pacific Rim and Indian sub-continent countries and the USA. As regards textiles, Vietnam is currently awash in U.S. consultants and that country will soon be formidable competitors with China and the USA.

I defer to Scott but would guess that whether other "Asian Tigers" ever enter Toy Train production will depend on comparative return on investment. Politicians everywhere, including Asia, expect companies to invest for reasons of producing jobs and developing payroll. However, investors invest to achieve ROI.