rdunniii posted:Reverse decals.
Thanks. Thanks to Scott as well replying to my email. Looks like I may be trying to re-letter the Lack to make my own EL.
Terry Danks posted:"There is still a few more months of open preorders."
This link states reservations close Jan. 31 and that 6 roads already cancelled due "to low reservations." Cancelled roads are ACL - RF&P - MOPAC - C&NW - N&W - KCS
Things are not clear on that link. At the top:
Reservations Close January 31st
Some Roads Cancelled Due to Low Reservations
ACL - RF&P - MOPAC - C&NW - N&W - KCS
But when you look at the drawings of each RR, ACL doesn't appear to be can'xd and RF&P doesn't appear at all. The other 4 (MOPAC, C&NW, N&W, KCS) say cancelled under each drawing.
jonnyspeed posted:rdunniii posted:Reverse decals.
Thanks. Thanks to Scott as well replying to my email. Looks like I may be trying to re-letter the Lack to make my own EL.
If your going to reletter a Lackawanna unit it looks the EL units won't be made
I understand from Scott that folks who had reserved the cancelled units, I think he said one person each, could either change their reservation or guarantee the minimum of 20. At least one person is a dealer. This is why Jeff Dobslaw reserved the 20 Texas Special E7s, to get them done.
I had no idea Amtrak was cancelled, I've had it on order (confirmed) since August but never received any communication regarding the cancellation. I personally have no preference regarding color scheme and would be just as happy with the 4316. I need something to pull my upcoming El Capitan Amtrak cars (have the 8 cars on order plus 4 extra cars).
Edit: Although I did fire Scott an eMail (Sept & November) expressing interest in the Southern if it was going to reflect the #6900 @ the NC Transportation Museum, so maybe my order was simply adjusted without a need to contact me.
- Jeff
645 posted:I was debating how many Amtrak E's to order as deadline was coming up and to my surprise they were canceled per Sunset's website. Sent Scott an email expressing my disappointment about this. He replied since I was interested in (4) A-units he might reconsider offering Amtrak with the caveat that the specifics of which Amtrak paint scheme(s) to offer had not been addressed yet. Others have ordered Amtrak E's so I'm not the only one who wanted to see them produced. Scott didn't say if my 4 makes for 20 or more Amtrak E's as he did not state how many others also ordered Amtrak but at least there is a chance to see them produced now...
So if you still want to see Amtrak E8/9's please let Scott know soon. Perhaps we can all agree on which paint scheme to do and make it happen?
Personally speaking I'd like platinum mist / red nose with pointless arrow on the side without portholes. (I am aware realistically speaking as vast majority of the other roadnames will have portholes it is unlikely Scott will do "porthole delete" E's.) Also would like to see the one of a kind black Amtrak #4316 which had no portholes - believe a few others were interested in 4316 as well but doubt there are 20 of us to meet the minimum for making it reality.
With your 4 it is still less than 10. So good luck! But no they would not be porthole deleted. As has been said too many time hereabouts Amtrak doesn't sell. Bums me out.
645 posted:I was debating how many Amtrak E's to order as deadline was coming up and to my surprise they were canceled per Sunset's website. Sent Scott an email expressing my disappointment about this. He replied since I was interested in (4) A-units he might reconsider offering Amtrak with the caveat that the specifics of which Amtrak paint scheme(s) to offer had not been addressed yet. Others have ordered Amtrak E's so I'm not the only one who wanted to see them produced. Scott didn't say if my 4 makes for 20 or more Amtrak E's as he did not state how many others also ordered Amtrak but at least there is a chance to see them produced now...
So if you still want to see Amtrak E8/9's please let Scott know soon. Perhaps we can all agree on which paint scheme to do and make it happen?
Personally speaking I'd like platinum mist / red nose with pointless arrow on the side without portholes. (I am aware realistically speaking as vast majority of the other roadnames will have portholes it is unlikely Scott will do "porthole delete" E's.) Also would like to see the one of a kind black Amtrak #4316 which had no portholes - believe a few others were interested in 4316 as well but doubt there are 20 of us to meet the minimum for making it reality.
I'm not sure you're going to get any sort of agreement on this, and therein lies the problem. I to stay out of this one because I wanted them in Phase II, or an E8A-R with snow pilots and triple lens nose door lights. Considering I already have 2 sets of MTH's Phase I E's and a set of Black PCs, I didnt see the need in owning another set unless I could get something special. I talked about this with Scott at York and even forwarded some pictures to him, and didnt get much in the way of a response. When it seemed like they would just be a paint up of the detail package of another roadname, I didnt see the need to order more.
Terry Danks posted:Please do not forget CP1800, 1801 and 1802 E8As delivered in Dec. 1949 in Beaver Crest livery!
Not the multimark paint job of later years recently offered by MTH.
After going back-and-forth between pre-ordering two of these units vs. waiting for MTH to produce their new E8's in Canadian Pacific livery, I decided today to place an order with 3rd Rail for a pair of A-units in the CP livery that is displayed in their brochure... which is also the image posted above. See my insert below as well (it's an N-scale model from Broadway Ltd Imports)...
I'm certainly no CP expert. But I know enough to be dangerous 
, and it's my understanding that the above paint scheme is the original CP paint scheme for the three E8 A-units (1800, 1801, 1802) as delivered by EMD in 1949. If I am wrong, then please correct me... as I'm learning about this as I go when I did some reading to help me decide between 3rd Rail now or wait for MTH E8's at some time in the future (since they haven't announced CP E8's w/PS3 yet).
Apparently there is another paint scheme that CP used though... and I believe it was done in later years, but I don't know when the switch-over occurred. The other paint scheme is below:
I am currently exchanging some emails with Scott on this very issue, as he seems very open to hearing customer thoughts as to which CP paint scheme should be used for this production run of EMD E8's. My personal preference is the paint scheme that is illustrated in the 3rd Rail brochure, which is also the scheme depicted in my first image in this post.
Scott also has some Canadian dealer input that may be suggesting the later paint scheme. Perhaps that's because later paint scheme was recently done for the 3rd Rail F7's? And folks could match up an F7 B-unit as shown in the second picture I included in this post (just above)?
For selfish reasons, I prefer the "as delivered by EMD" 1949 paint scheme, because I already own Lionel's Legacy F3 ABA configuration they did back around 2010/2011 in what I believe is the later paint scheme.
Bottom line... I would strongly suggest CP enthusiasts who've already pre-ordered CP E8's with Scott to contact him and voice your opinion as to which CP paint scheme you'd like to see in the production EMD CP A-units. I think it would be particularly cool and unique to have the 1949 "as delivered" paint scheme be the one this time around. I just hope I have the terminology right. CP experts, please chime in!!!
What are other CP enthusiasts here thinking? Post your thoughts here... and let Scott know as well. It's wonderful that he has an "open ear" for what his buyers would like to see. But I'm also enough of a realist to know he can never please everybody all the time. So I'm just hoping all the other CP enthusiasts tell him they want the 1949 paint scheme too!!!! 
David
Hi David:
Great to see that there is interest in the CP 1800 series. #1800 was the first diesel I ever saw, westbound out of Montreal on The Canadian. I also rode behind it in the early 60's on the Montreal West Island commuter run. I took a picture of it that first time . . . 1955/56? Not sure.
Side view only.
Of course I would prefer that paint scheme!
I have several other images of 1800/01/02 taken by other photographers, into the early-70s.
I cannot state that all three locomotives were repainted at the same time. The earliest image I have seen is the full-on portrait shown here, (not mine) carrying the date 1953, a couple of years earlier than when I saw and photographed it.
So, it seems sure to me that the 1953 photo is "the original."
While I would prefer the original scheme, shown here, the later one would not be a total deal-breaker for me. (The multi-mark version would be though.)
I've ordered three units.
For those who may not know, CP had three E8A units, numbered 1800, 1801, and 1802. No B units. I understand they were not equipped with dynamic brakes?
#1801 was wrecked in a head on collision in Quebec in 1968. There is a video of the clean up on youtube. Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTC-A0d4Vn4
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Terry Danks posted:...While I would prefer the original scheme, shown here, the later one would not be a total deal-breaker for me. (The multi-mark version would be though.)
...
Terry, do you have a picture handy of the "multi-mark" version. I'm not familiar with that terminology. I think your earlier post also mentioned MTH may have produced that version recently? The last E8's I could find that MTH did in the CP livery were from 2005. Of course, MTH also produced B-units that CP never really had. But I'm not a stickler about that, although this paint scheme is similar to one I already have with Lionel's CP Legacy F3 ABA from a few years ago. So it's not my preference this time around for 3rd Rail. See below for the MTH E8's...
I will be sending Scott my preference for what I believe is the 1949 "early version" (in your photo dated 1953). If folks who've actually pre-ordered alreadh convey their request to Scott, he seems very open to the choice that his real buyers want to see.
David
Dave:
I do have the MTH Multimark version as well as the Weaver Beaver Crest livery. MTH offered it in 2010 as an ABA. There was an additional "imaginary" B unit offered as well for a monsterous, if half fictional, A-B-B-A!
Sometime, well after their 1949 delivery, as you can see, numerous additional grab irons were added, including brow irons the 1800 I saw never had. Both the Weaver and the MTH models I have both have dynamic braking fans which, I have been told, is incorrect. CP's E8s did not have dynamics. I see the N scale model you posted, correctly, does not have the dynamic brake fan.
1800 and 1802, as you may know, ended their service lives in Via colours. 1801 was scrapped after the 1968 collision. While in VIA service, they were eventually renumbered
to 1898 and 1899.
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645 posted:Scott did also post the E8/9 reservation deadline has been extended to late March
Hmmm . . . this sounds like these toys are going to be a couple of months later "hitting the rails" than hoped . . . 
For models that will be available in both 2 and 3-rail I post in this forum and expect folks who are interested in the subject to read it regardless of which forum it is posted. But that is just me. That being said, I only have one person other than myself interested in the E8 demonstrator so I will not go for that if more people are interested in Amtrak but not enough to make it a go. I magic happens and 20 reservations for Amtrak do show up before the new deadline Scott and I will discuss again.
Which Amtrak? The porthole delete is not an option because the portholes are part of the shell injection so deleting them would be a labor intensive effort that would substantially increase the price of these units. As for Phase I, II or III paint I would prefer Phase I (and that will be the default) but if the majority of folks who have signed up would prefer Phase II or III that is negotiable, I suppose. At this time just assume they will be the same as the NYC or Pennsylvania E8s in Phase I paint.
Also note that I have signed up for undecorated "kits" of E8s that would have none of the details of anything installed on the shell but would have all the possible options of Sunset detail parts provided, either raw unfinished or possibly in primer. But no, not including 3-rail stuff on 2-rail units and vice versa. So a purchaser of an undecorated kit will be expected to cut, drill and/or mill out the shell if necessary to install the details they want. So, if someone wanted to cut out the porthole bezels and install a flush piece of plastic for the porthole delete that is the quickest way to get to there. Also, there will likely be a few extra Amtrak decals of whichever phase is done that could possibly be available to folks who buy undecorated kits (note: stripes are painted not decals). They will also have only the single headlight. I don't believe it has been decided yet whether or not the nose door will be a separate part but if not the purchaser of an undecorated kit can cut out the fixed nose door and replace it with a door from PD Hobbies with their individual preference of lower lights.
Canadian Pacific paint-scheme update:
FWIW, I did hear back from the Sunset folks last week, and I was told the plan is to move forward with the original "as delivered" Canadian Pacific paint-scheme for the 3rd Rail EMD E8, which is the paint scheme pictured in the first 2 photos of my 1/29/2016 post. (It's also the paint scheme illustrated in the 3rd Rail EMD E8 brochure for the CP livery.)
Terrific news!!!
Just wanted to give a shout-out to Scott and his team for soliciting feedback early on in the process to help steer the final product's overall appearance. I know it's impossible to please everyone 100% of the time. But Sunset / 3rd Rail continues to "get it" with respect to consumer communications. Thanks guys!!! 
David
I am really excited about the CP E8 units! Ordered 3, 1800, 1801 and 1802. Of course, the preference is for the original 1949 "as delivered" paint.
But I note the closing date keeps being extended. From Jan. 31 to March 31 and now to . Apr. 29. Delivery date from June to August.
Nothing for it but to wait . . .
Terry Danks posted:... But I note the closing date keeps being extended. From Jan. 31 to March 31 and now to . Apr. 29. Delivery date from June to August. ...
Terry, I think the waiting game is now par for the course in this hobby -- whether it's locomotives, rolling stock, track, or accessories. Getting product from "announced in the catalog"... then into production... and ultimately "in the hands of the consumer" is no small feat nowadays. We'd probably be quite surprised at all the machinations that importers are going through today to get product manufactured. And truth be told, all of these cool products tend to be pricey... so a few months delay (or even a year) just gives us more time to save up until it's time to pay the piper!
David
I thought that 3rd Rail used to offer 2 rail powered units without sound? Maybe they didn't sell well?
The delay in the ordering deadline is partially my fault. It's taking forever finishing up the SD7 and SD9 drawings due to the 21 different sets of details for 22 road names. Just the graphics diagram alone takes anywhere from 4 to 8 hours per road name after the research has been done.
In order to get the research properly done on the E8 and E9 project, I think Scott might have pushed the order deadline back so our whole team has time to get the road specific details and variations down to satisfy the number of requests that have been coming in and let people know prior to the ordering deadline. While every request can't be satisfied, we try really hard to accommodate as much as possible into these projects within the constraints of what the factory can and can't do.
If anyone's going to York, I'll be in the Orange hall most of the time at the Sunset booth with the one and only Bob Heil. Stop by and say hi! I'll probably be on my laptop doing painting diagrams
I ordered an Amtrak E8 when they were first announced many moons ago. Hoping for a phase I scheme to pull my early Amtrak 21" rainbow train passenger cars. I'm sure will be worth the wait.
Jonathan,
Thanks for the update and explanation. By the way,good luck in the upcoming TCA election.
Norm Rish
Let me publicly say, THANK YOU Jonathan, and.... HURRY UP!!!
All kidding aside I think these SD7s/9s are going to be fantastic. If you haven't already you need to get your reservation in. We have capped the quantities of 2R vs 3R, so as time goes on our flexibility to add reservations goes down. We literally only have 25 models unreserved at this time.
The E8/E9 production is following the SP S-12 production. So we still have time to adjust orders and quantities which is why I extended reservations to the end of April.
You can use this link to make your reservations:
http://www.3rdrail.com/reservation.htm
Scott Mann
Is April 29 the cut off date for E8/E9 reservations? Thank you in advance.
Steve
Sorry everyone for the question I posed above. I just had the brain storm to check the 3rd rail site and it clearly says that the cut off date for E8/E9 reservations is April 29.
Steve
Mr. Scott chance of any timeframe for the PAs? Need to keep up so I can send Shani all my money.
Just noticed BO 50' baggage offer. This wouldn't be the single door with the weird dimpled trucks?
How do you know what I am building all the time? I have a paper sided BO baggage I started 2 years back gave up looking for trucks.
aterry11 posted:Just noticed BO 50' baggage offer. This wouldn't be the single door with the weird dimpled trucks?
How do you know what I am building all the time? I have a paper sided BO baggage I started 2 years back gave up looking for trucks.
The B&O car is indeed the C-15 50 foot baggage car with the unusual trucks. I have a master pattern for those trucks if you want to use it to cast some sideframes.
The Sunset C-15 is planned to be offered in both the early green scheme and the later solid blue scheme.
Mr. Heil, Ive cast aluminium in jr high and made and cast my own seats in resin. How would one go about this? email in profile. The car I have was started by Joe Fisher but never finished and the Strathmore has been primed blue would love to complete it.
Extended again. May 15th this time.
No idea what that means. 
Terry Danks posted:Extended again. May 15th this time.
No idea what that means.
Like Atlas-O's F3/F7 production schedule... Perpetual delays, but eventually the boat arrives. By the time it does, we almost forget we pre-ordered anything! 
The state of overseas manufacturing has really morphed into a monster that few folks would have predicted. One 6-month delay.... Then more delays.... Then a factory closes.... Gotta hit the reset button and find a new factory... Negotiate a new deal... Then go back to Step 1 and repeat all over again! Ughhhh... Doesn't work like this for every product cycle (fortunately), but suffice to say there's enough instability over there these days to really make life interesting. It's amazing importers have the patience to deal with this stuff. God bless 'em, cause I couldn't.
David
Sunset,GGD appears to have had more than their share of issues with various Asian builders, I guess this comes with soliciting smaller runs from less reliable factories. I applaud Scotts efforts and perseverance in bringing these models to market . just saying!
Can't say as I get it.
Small industry. Small numbers of each item produced. I get that!
But, it's done here, meaning in America.
My other hobby is astrophotography. For every astrophotographer, I'd bet there are ten O-gaugers!
Some (most?) of the best mounts are made in the good o'le USA! Only the lesser expensive stuff tends to be from Asia (Takahashi is a "yuuge" exception!). Same can be said for optics. The "best" stuff is not from China!
3-rd Rail, GGD stuff is hardly "lesser expensive."
I'm a voice in the wilderness. Not a businessman. I don't presume to tell GGD how they should be making this stuff.
But, no, I don't get it!
Mind, delays are hardly unheard of in astro. But complete surrender to the vagaries of the labor situation in China for high-end stuff seems far less the norm than in this industry!
To clear things up, there isn't any issue with the builder on this project. Everything is simply taking a little more time with the new factory getting up to speed and costs for materials have gone up. There have been some negotiations going on with various parts vendors to keep the price point as advertised from what I understand. There are sufficient orders to move the project forward into full design and production, but since the road specific details have not all been completed, why not keep the ordering open for another few weeks?
The main reason these are done in Asia is of course labor and material costs. The models would likely cost three times more if they were built in the US. That's just an educated guess, but it's reality. On top of that, the craftsmanship wouldn't be as good. We have lost the art of doing repetitive labor tasks that require use of our hands for highly detailed work. The Chinese simply do that work better now.
I don't know what the final road name list is, but likely will early next week. Amtrak stayed in from what I understand.
GG1 4877 posted:...
Amtrak stayed in from what I understand.
Yes, and fully spoken for. Same for undecorated.
Oh ... and by the way Scott... I am working towards wrapping up the SD7 / SD9 project. Next time the factory is doing the drafting corrections to the CAD files. I'm too slow!
So, I am to believe that the same nation that put men on the moon, the same nation that is the world's technology leader cannot find a way to produce our trains in the USA. I do not believe it.
It is a matter of focus and guts to do it. In my humble opinion.
Ron H
If trains could be produced at a price people would pay in the US, it would happen. It's simple capitalism. Building 500 units of essentially the same item and largely by hand is a lost skill in this nation. That's not at all a criticism of the US. We are the leader in many areas and have simply moved on as these would be considered extremely low wage jobs in today's business environment and would be hard to fill.
There is not much profit in this business as it is and Owners of model companies are not getting rich doing this. This is today's reality. With changes in technology such as 3D printing finally starting to come along this could swing the other way someday, but it won't be anytime soon except for extremely low production run projects.
Ron H posted:So, I am to believe that the same nation that put men on the moon, the same nation that is the world's technology leader cannot find a way to produce our trains in the USA. I do not believe it.
It is a matter of focus and guts to do it. In my humble opinion.
Ron H
Ron H, let me say you are -- without a sliver of a doubt -- 1 MILLION PER CENT CORRECT with your comment!!!!
I really winced when I read Jonathan's comment about Chinese workers. He seems like a terrific guy, so I won't jump on him too much. But oh was I ticked off reading it.
I think we're all guilty sometimes of taking the course of least resistance. And that's pretty much how I characterize the migration of toy/model train manufacturing jobs to nations across the Pacific over the last decade or two. When the pain level of dealing with the overseas factories rises to an unbearable level, we'll learn how to rely upon them to a much lesser degree than we do today. It's sad that it will take that kind of pain threshold (practical as well as financial) to make it happen, but I don't think I'm wrong on this.
When I was in college back in the late 1970's / early 1980's, I can't tell you how many international graduate students I helped earn their dissertations in Computing & Information Science when I worked in the university's computing center. It wasn't important for me to stay in school extra years to go for a Ph.D. in Computer Science... 'cause I was itching to get into the working world by 1981. But I have absolutely no problem saying I could run circles around many of those graduate students back in those days... whether it was low-level machine-language coding/programming, operating systems design, compiler design, structured programming or even relational database design. That's simply the way it was back then. Just don't ask me to do that today though... 'cause today's crop of young college students (from any culture) would probably run circles around ME now! 
Time has a funny way of doing that to all of us.
Nonetheless, I don't believe any one culture is necessarily better (or worse) at any task than another culture. What I DO believe, however -- and this is what I think Jonathan meant to say -- is that the TOOLING technologies (and associated skillset levels of people using those tools) that reside in other nations now place those cultures at a tremendous advantage to PRODUCE products. This is precisely why today's top U.S. companies like Apple Computer will brand their products as being DESIGNED IN THE U.S.A., because it would be almost impossible to BUILD those products here in the USA today with any degree of price-competitiveness -- especially since we've sold off so much tooling and skills to our overseas "partners". (And I use that term very loosely.)
Enough said.
David
The British model railroad magazine interviews with their manufacturers (Hornby, Bachmann Europe, etc.) are reporting the same issues with their Asian factories. Chinese wage increases are forcing toy manufacturers to relocate to lower priced nations to build their trains. Even the Chinese are beginning to price themselves out of the market. Delays and other problems are not unique to Sunset.
Manufacturers could make trains in the USA. However, they would have to be priced at a point where most hobbyists could not afford to buy them.
NH Joe
I would love to bring the factory home. There are 15 workers at the factory. Each makes about 3000 RMB / month / 6.5 = $500 / month X 15 = $7000 / month. The E8/E9 will take 3 months to produce so thats $22,500 for the labor alone.
Bring it to the US (CA) and pay the workers $15 / hour X 40 hrs / week X 4.25 weeks/ month = $38,250 / month X 3 months = $114,750
That would increase the cost of production by $92,250.
So that would increase the cost of each unit by $184.50. There is a multiplier for added costs, since not all models are sold, 15%-20% are lost due to damage, repairs etc, there is debt service, customer service, storage, overhead. So this would put our diesels at around $1000 / unit retail. $670 vs $1000 / unit. Is that worth it to you to have models made in the US?
It might be possible. It might cause my business to fail.
A poll was taken I saw on TV that 85% of American's won't buy made in America if the price is significantly higher. Thus the massive manufacturing overseas.
Given this information, what would you do with your nest egg?
Scott - Back in the US,
Thanks for the look at reality, Scott. Just my opinion but, I really don't think you could find ANY potential workers here in the U.S. that would be capable of doing such fine modeling work for ONLY $15 an hour. It's getting to a point that nobody even wants to "flip burgers" for "only $15/hr".
As much as I'd like to see manufacturing back in the U.S.A. the reality is that it is still cost prohibitive as Scott pointed out. The guys that are rallying for this need to open a business and face the realities. Everything can be made here, that's not the problem. The problem is can you pay the workers what they think they deserve and get the talent, the benefits, the permits, the costs of the manufacturing, insurance etc. and still charge a price that the consumer is willing to pay? I'm guessing not, especially in the small market that is model trains.
Thanks to Scott for some of the insight.
