3rd RAIL F7 MODIFICATIONS

Looks SO much better with the 2R pilot and Kadee.  That in itself has changed the appearance dramatically.

The lift ring mod helps also.

Can't wait to see them weathered!

we ALL do not know that the Lifting Lugs on the front are in the wrong place.    To me they look about right for the Pennsy.     Pennsy had them on all their F-units and E-units.

Waiting on parts from P&D and Keiline for my NP aba set the lifting lugs appear correct for NP based on the pictures I have of The Engines.    What became of the vent window issue?

Dramatic improvement! 

prrjim posted:

we ALL do not know that the Lifting Lugs on the front are in the wrong place.    To me they look about right for the Pennsy.     Pennsy had them on all their F-units and E-units.

Let me clarify....the location is wrong for Santa Fe units.

aterry11 posted:

What became of the vent window issue?

Well Butch used Lionel F3 windows and they look great.

Lionel F3 windows.... unavailable, out of stock

Lionel F7 windows... I bought but I don't think they will fit, haven't got the shell off yet. They look too big!

P&D windows set.... as reported by Santiago they don't fit

Scott Mann.... does not have a fix as of yet

Swapping the factory windows left to right.... I will try once I take the shells off

Swapped the couplers on 2 units, but the gap is still too big for my taste. Will re-drill new holes in the Kadee brackets to move the couplers in for a smaller gap.

The problem: These diaphragms are ridged, so a closed gap could cause derailments on 072 curves without any flex. Testing to follow after re-drilling.

I have a set of Lionel F7 diaphragms if you need them... I was going to add them to another unit, or keep them as spares, but I see that you could use them. Then you can get close coupling at scale distances, like we did with our F3s and F7s. 

Mine are 2 rail and Kadee equipped I used an old BC hobbies diaphragm kit in between a and b both ends works well looks OK and will still squeeze around the tight ones .  But for ATSF you would paint them silver? I never removed anything.   Because of the way The Units are painted I'm placed between 1957 and 62,63?  the radio equipped pant  disappeared somewhere around there.  I need to remove and paint grills as NP never had an F7 with silver, add MU hoses to front of each a and winterization hatch, exhaust stack cover. different horns, firecracker radio antenna, sun visor, ladder rungs,   and cooling coil. that's not too much for a super running allpower set has no problem pulling all the heavy arse cars I build.

CentralFan1976 posted:

I have a set of Lionel F7 diaphragms if you need them... I was going to add them to another unit, or keep them as spares, but I see that you could use them. Then you can get close coupling at scale distances, like we did with our F3s and F7s. 

Looks good so far! Did you have to order the 2 rail pilot or did they come with them (like Atlas)?

A most needed thread. My mods are in full swing. I've been doing the following:

-Painted the grills silver.. that shiny mirror like finish looks bad IMO.

- Filled the tab holes behind the grills. Why were they there if they were not used is beyond me.

- Sprayed Micro Scale Satin (50 water-50 product) to combat the overly shiny finish. Did paint touch ups before re spraying.

Below: Here is a B unit with all these changes, Notice the tab holes are gone!

Below: silver grills on the left, mirror like out of the box on the right.

Hand painted the bolt details for a better appearance. A less expensive alternative to P&D's superb grabs.

ss

Below: Satin finish on the right.

Norm,

I had to order the 2 rail pilot and the steps with my ATSF freight units, $40.00.

Santiago,

I've been thinking of selectively putting flat on the upper surface of the freights, as well as, the A unit nose and both A&B tanks and trucks. Do you think Dullcoat can sprayed would work ok?

The paint work as delivered does not blow me away.

Ron H

Norm Charbonneau posted:

Looks good so far! Did you have to order the 2 rail pilot or did they come with them (like Atlas)?

Had to order them from Scott. I also ordered the body mount steps for the sides. The truck mounted steps gotta go! The 2R guys have a lot less work to do as they obviously come with the pilots, Kadees and steps. I guess that's what I get for having a center rail  Oh well.

To bring the units closer together, I modified the brackets and the draft gear boxes for clearance.

Now this is acceptable in my book. Nice and close as they should be. This is slack in with the Kadees.

Below is slack stretched out.... and it's enough slack where they still run on an 072 curve without binding.

Grills off to re-glue and fill tab holes. Truck mounted steps also removed for body mounted steps. 3 rail models should have them body mounted anyway. No one is buying these for 036 curves.

Ron I'm going to use Dull-Cote.... but not in a spray can, that kinda makes my butt pucker, I'll air brush it.

I'm going to close couple mine with a  fabricated drawbar as I did with the Alcos, very simple and reliable.

Ron H posted:

Norm,

I had to order the 2 rail pilot and the steps with my ATSF freight units, $40.00.

Santiago,

I've been thinking of selectively putting flat on the upper surface of the freights, as well as, the A unit nose and both A&B tanks and trucks. Do you think Dullcoat can sprayed would work ok?

The paint work as delivered does not blow me away.

Ron H

 

 

Ron, I can't say. I've never used that. I like the versatility of airbrushing. Much more control. 

Ron H posted:

I'm going to close couple mine with a  fabricated drawbar as I did with the Alcos, very simple and reliable.

I just like to look in there and see all the "stuff" cluttered up. Couplers, air hoses, mu hoses, diaphragms, buffers etc

Doug, I agree.

I still do all that stuff too.

Ron

Santiago, what did you use to fill the tab holes? strip styrene?

What kind of glue did you use to put the grills back on? I want something more flexible than CA, and doesn't turn white with a kicker.

Ron H posted:

I'm going to close couple mine with a  fabricated drawbar as I did with the Alcos, very simple and reliable.

Great idea!

LOS, when we talked last night, I forgot to tell you that I used some Atlas coupler springs to keep the coupler stiffer and that I modified the coupler so the spring was ahead of the center hole on the Kadee (more like a buffer); maybe that will work here? 

Laidoffsick posted:

Santiago, what did you use to fill the tab holes? strip styrene?

What kind of glue did you use to put the grills back on? I want something more flexible than CA, and doesn't turn white with a kicker.

 

LOS, I used tamiya putty pressed from behind, then painted. 

I stuck with ca glue... no pun intended. God that's s bad joke. Anyways, I used this, which has a brush for better application. Did not turn white and works well.

Great thread guys!  I really haven't progressed beyond the vent windows and gluing one of the headlight bulb assemblies back on and rerouting the wiring bundle slightly. The nose of these "A" units is extremely busy with wires, but without it we would lose the really nice lighting effects. 

The 2R models have the same spacing problem between the units even with KD's, so its nice to see the fixes. 

I'm trying to decide what to do about the protruding steps/platforms just below the stainless kick plates below all the side doors. On the UP F units these platforms are body colored not painted silver. Not sure if this is the case on all roads, but if it is, this is one of those little details that will really make a big change. Since they're brass details I thought about trying to remove them 1st before painting, but that might just break off the locating pins. 

Santiago, I'm also very interested in what you used to fill the grill tab holes and what glue to reinstall the grills. SS suggested CA, but as LOS stated it can leave a white residue over time and I already have that on one unit. Lionel used the tabs/holes for mounting the grills which allowed them to expand and contract without buckling. Most likely another oversight on the part of the builder.

PS: The dark paint on the grills really sets your model off Santiago. Nice job. 

Butch

up148 posted:

 

...I'm trying to decide what to do about the protruding steps/platforms just below the stainless kick plates below all the side doors. On the UP F units these platforms are body colored not painted silver. Not sure if this is the case on all roads, but if it is, this is one of those little details that will really make a big change. Since they're brass details I thought about trying to remove them 1st before painting, but that might just break off the locating pins...

Butch

Speaking of, any thoughts of removing the stripes from the ATSF doors?

Any plans to add windshield access grab rails?   Loads of frazzled nerves performing that mod.

Bruce

Completely redid the porthole windows. I ruined some while removing them so I could spray the satin finish. I've been looking for a way to cut small circles of polycarbonate plastic for lenses on my CB&Q F3 project. I finally found a place that will do that for me. They did the portholes and the lenses too, and I couldn't ask for a better solution. The new portholes sit flush with the car body. They are painted behind. I think this is as nice as it is going to get on this model.

Awesome. 

CentralFan1976 posted:

up148 posted:

 

...I'm trying to decide what to do about the protruding steps/platforms just below the stainless kick plates below all the side doors. On the UP F units these platforms are body colored not painted silver. Not sure if this is the case on all roads, but if it is, this is one of those little details that will really make a big change. Since they're brass details I thought about trying to remove them 1st before painting, but that might just break off the locating pins...

Butch

Speaking of, any thoughts of removing the stripes from the ATSF doors?

Goof off, to remove them maybe, other wise airbrush silver over it. Depends on thick the decals are.

brwebster posted:

Any plans to add windshield access grab rails?   Loads of frazzled nerves performing that mod.

Bruce

I will NOT be adding the nose grabs because like the nose lift lugs, they are too new for the years I want. They eye brow grab irons are too new as well, but those will stay for now. The extra details chosen for the SF units, were a mix of different times. So if you do one, you do them all, if you don't all then don't do them. Lionel did the lugs, nose grabs, but not the eye brow grabs, and no MU door in the nose. So they are all a fix and match of the extra add-on details.   

Any detail / paint scheme issues with their NYC units?

Those kick plates seem to be different by road.    ON PRR units they seem to be silver when new as delivered, then get dirty or body color as they age.    

the same is true of the details on the extra grabs.    Each road did different things to some extent and more stuff was added as they got older.   Some of additional grabs may have been added because of safety rules from FRA later in the units lives.    Eventually on the PRR, the skirting above the fuel tank was removed.    I think that makes them ugly, I won't do it.

I was wondering what you guys were up to with the grills. Any before and after pics?

I haven't got that far with mine. I finished all the couplers and ran the 4 units together for awhile to make sure there were no issues before taking the shells off. Probably back at it in a couple days.

Cool, looking forward to seeing the progress. Threads like this are awesome. I have a set of Atlas F7s ordered.

Was that you that mentioned the $20 harbor freight airbrush  a while ago?

Norm Charbonneau posted:

I was wondering what you guys were up to with the grills. Any before and after pics?

d

The grills come with a mirror like appearance and fogged were glue was used, too shinny IMO. I removed them, re painted them and coated them. To make them sit flush you need to sand the remaining CA glue. As I said, I also filled the unused tab holes. They are sturdy and re workable if bent, no need to ask for replacements. These are finished. The last two pictures show the difference.

ss

Any chance that the grilles are available separately?

Thanks for the explanation Santiago, good job! Looks better with the gaps filled.

How How do you guys break these in? Mine are a little jerky, do I need to oil them a bit? Or just run them for a while?

Kadees inherently have a lot of slack action due to soft springing (needed for their delayed coupling feature when over track magnets),  and extra space between the knuckle and the body.  For diesels run as a semi-permanently coupled sets I mount dummy scale couplers in the Kadee draft gear box to minimize extraneous movement between the units.  I drill the shank of the dummy to just fit over the Kaydee center post.  Scale dummy couplers typically have minimal inter knuckle slack,  and  by not having a sprung shank I get no movement there as well.  I've been using old white metal dummies from USH freight cars but believe Kiel line may also sell dummies.  

Ed Rappe

Since I have operations where we are focused on switching cars by specific car number, I have to have Kadees on every car.    I have even tried other brands of working couplers, but they are not really compatible with Kadees when you want to uncouple and couple for switching.   

On USH cars, I fill the the shank slot in Kadees and file off the tab on the bottom.    Then I drill a hole in the shank filler for an appropriate screw, often 2-56, 0-80 or somesuch.    If the hole in the coupler box is too large or stripped out, I tap the hole in the shank filler.

Norm Charbonneau posted:

Cool, looking forward to seeing the progress. Threads like this are awesome. I have a set of Atlas F7s ordered.

Was that you that mentioned the $20 harbor freight airbrush  a while ago?

Yes, that was me. I mentioned it in your recent thread of weathering cars but one of the moderators deleted my comment. One can only imagine why.... I have used those HF airbrushes for years. $20 is a steal, and I consider them disposable because you can't get parts for them. They usually last 6 months to a year for me, depending on how much I use them. Paint and laquer thinner seems to eat up the cheap O-rings in them. I don't use acrylics  

CentralFan1976 posted:

Any chance that the grilles are available separately?

I think Scott said they have extra grills... don't remember for sure.

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

How How do you guys break these in? Mine are a little jerky, do I need to oil them a bit? Or just run them for a while?

Mine are 3R and run really smooth, even all 4 of them together. However I did run them for a couple hours. I was running them, and left to go run some errands. Totally forgot to shut them off and when I came back a couple hours later they were still running just fine. The shells were not even warm to touch. The is no comparison between these single motor horizontal drives and the dual vertical motor China drives. IMO, that is the best feature of the 3rd Rail diesels...especially with a multi unit consist

Keystoned Ed posted:

Kadees inherently have a lot of slack action due to soft springing (needed for their delayed coupling feature when over track magnets),  and extra space between the knuckle and the body.  For diesels run as a semi-permanently coupled sets I mount dummy scale couplers in the Kadee draft gear box to minimize extraneous movement between the units.  I drill the shank of the dummy to just fit over the Kaydee center post.  Scale dummy couplers typically have minimal inter knuckle slack,  and  by not having a sprung shank I get no movement there as well.  I've been using old white metal dummies from USH freight cars but believe Kiel line may also sell dummies.  

Ed Rappe

Because I am a 3 railer, and these units have ridged diaphragms, I NEED that natural slack that Kadees have. Pulling them in that close, with 072 curves they would derail in the curves without that slack. Real trains have slack anyway, and you can feel the engines bumping each other at times  So a little slack action is OK with me. 

To body mount the steps, I had to take this thing completely apart to drill the holes in the frame. That sucked, and didn't want to do it...oh well. I removed the wires and plugs for the electro couplers, and pulled the battery out since I had the shell off (battery is only a 3R thing), and pulled out the B units lights/wires. Programmed as a MU consist, those B unit lights turn off anyway, but the wires were all over the place so I cleaned up the mess of wires inside the shell.

There's nothing like the sound of 4 powered units cruising by with speakers in all of them