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3rd Rail New E-7 Engines

M mokemikeOGR Forum Member

I received two new sets of 3rd Rail E-7 AA's and after getting all the lash-ups set on the two different road names I wanted to see how the TMCC and power requirements would work out.

 

These engines are powered by a single motor and a chain drive on both ends to power the trucks.  The paint jobs were very well done and these E-7's look great. My loop is made up of TMCC and DCS with two TIU's and a Z4000, with CAB 1 and Command Base, and is a little over 100' long, divided into 5 different power blocks that easily has supported triple headed MTH SD-70's while running a second single MTH SD-70 on the same track loop at the same time.  Other TMCC engines all run fine as long as I'm running the modern can motored engines from Weaver, Atlas, K-Line, and Lionel.  The E-7 manual states to not exceed 18 volts and I stuck with that.  However, after 5 hours of testing on different loop sections  and different configurations, I found that the AA combination was very slow, before even adding freight cars or GGD pass. cars.  During TMCC ops., the voltage would drop down to 16 volts indicated, at max speed of only about 25 mph.  Also the amperage was a bit high for just two engines. I had set the E-7's cruise to "off" to get a faster start during the test runs.  On a second pair of

E-7's I left the cruise "on" to see if there were any differences.

 

I contacted Scott Mann, with a long narrative on the tests and he gave the okay to bump the throttle back up to 18V as soon as the Z4000 would bleed off to 16V.  Armed with a pair of test voltmeters and AA lash-ups set up again, I found that if the throttle is set at 19V on the Z4000 and then using a test volt meter to confirm actual track voltage at 19V, the AA's would perform very adequately.  I achieved speeds of up to scale 40 mph, with the throttle preset at 19V, although as soon as the AA set rolled forward, the voltage would drop off on the test meter to 17V, as did the voltmeter on the Z4000.  I pulled 20 car freights and 11 car GGD 21" pass sets with no problem. Amperage for the AA's and the pulled cars never exceed 6.5 amps, at the max speed of 40 mph.  I also tried pulling the same freight with just one A unit and the speed was noticeably slower.  The AA's need to be operated as a lash-up as specified in the TMCC manual for assembling lash-ups as one of the A units, has to run backwards and the set has to be a "Train" (TR).  With a 6.5 amperage draw I was concerned about running a second

engine at the same time as I do with the MTH engines and other TMCC combinations.          

 

So, I then moved to a loop on the layout that was powered by a TPC 400 and two 180 watt bricks with a CAB 1 and Command Base and operations on that configuration were unsatisfactory.  Before running the two AA's as a set, I moved the RUN - PRG switch to PRG so the set would run in conventional and before putting the AA's on the track I used a Atlas Milw Erie-Built to pull the passenger set that I was going to use for the AA's. The single Atlas and dummy Erie- Built had no problem pulling the 11, GGD 21" cars, using only 3 1/2 amps and 11 volts to motor around the 170' long loop at about a 55 mph pace.  I could have gone 90 mph if needed.  I then installed the 3rd Rail  E-7 AA's and they started and moved out just fine, however; I could not achieve speeds over about 25 mph.  The amperage drop of 2 volts was too much to compensate for using the CAB 1 controller as the maximum voltage I could achieve was 17.3 volts, as the TPC and two 180 watt bricks are rated at 18 volts, and there was no way to nudge it back up any higher. Once you've turned the big red knob clockwise as far as it will go in as many revolutions as you want, there's no more power to put to the tracks in voltage.  Amperage was not the problem as the TPC 400, with two 180 watt bricks are rated at 20 amps.  I was only using about 6.5 amps on the meter but lacked more voltage.  The 170' loop is supported with 22 pick-ups, using 14 gauge stranded wire, with nearly all pick-up points being home run back to the TPC as a single paired wire run.  The loop has been tested by the most extreme configuration I could load.  I used 2 MTH AC6000 non powered units, weighing nearly 8 pounds each, installed Williams running gear and e-units, followed by two MTH non powered SD-70s weighing 6 pounds each, followed with a 30 car freight made up of 50' and 60' box cars and a total of 30 cars in the freight make-up that weighed at least another 20 pounds and the loop allowed me to move everything at 12 volts and 7 amps at speeds of 50 mph or higher if I wanted it.  So the loop is fully operational for all other train

sets.

 

I guess my next step would be to try just a Z4000 on the loop that's now powered by the TPC 400 and two 180 watt bricks.  If one throttle was not enough, I could split the loop into two blocks to get the use of the other throttle.  Perhaps a TPC 400 connected to just one Z4000 throttle would prevent amperage bleed off?  I'm open to suggestions as there's nothing wrong with the performance of the current TPC 400 loop.  The problem is the 3rd Rail E-7's high amperage requirements of a single motor in conventional mode operations.  I've advised Scott Mann of the scenario and he gave the okay to try and solve the problem on the OGR Forum to find out if it were a layout problem or an engine problem. It's a brand new fielding for the E-7's in a configuration that we haven't seen in single motor chain drive since Weaver used it in GP-38s in the late 1990's.

   

mokemike

Last edited by mokemike
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M mokemikeOGR Forum Member
I haven't used the "Forum" for the last 18 months and back then I got a little flak for including too much information and making the issue "too Long".  Thanks for the updated criteria.  mokemike

Moke

 

I don't mean to be critical but if you could go back in and use paragraphs it would make for much easier reading.

 

If I'm reading everything right it would seem that the issue is not your layout.

 

Soo Line

Dale ManquenDale ManquenOGR Forum Member MEMORIALIZED MEMBER

Was the 6.5 amps for just the two A's, or did that include lighted passenger cars?  Amperage numbers for just the motors without smoke or any lighted cars would be useful to see what the engines require.

 

There could be excessive loss inthe chain drive system, a poor gear ratio match, a motor with too high a voltage rating, or something else like wiring problems.

 

Do both A's run at the same speed if you uncouple them?

M mokemikeOGR Forum Member
Thanks for your questions. The 6.5
amp reading is for engines and pass cars.  The cars have new nearly zero voltage light strips & if
they didn't, I'd either turn the lights
off or disable them at the roller
connector using a shrink tube block.  I never run 2 engines coupled without first setting them about 4' apart and then running them as a uncoupled lash-up to
see if they are in sync with one another's speed.  Too many cruise
"on" or cruise "off" and other variables to take a chance of pulling one or pushing the other.  That's a good way to damage traction tires or burn up a board.
SL Soo LineOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Moke

 

If I understand correctly.

The 2 AAs must run together and each has one motor.

The passenger cars you say draw little to nothing.

 

So, 2 motors drawing 6.5 amps?

Certainly seems too high a draw in my opinion.

 

These are chain drives?  I have not seen that in a while.

Are you able to take the shell off to see how tight the drives might be?

 

If possible, I would really like to see a pic of the inside of your units.

 

Soo Line

D500D500OGR Forum Member

Certainly we're not wanting 150-mph PW Lionel F3's, but an E-7 that will not exceed
25mph - 1:48 scale or the real thing - needs to go to the shop.

I have 3rd Rail items; they can be flaky and even "cheap" feeling. Some are fine.
One never knows. I've looked with interest and concern at the Gulf, Mobile and Ohio
3rd Rail E-7, but this convinces me to stick with my imperfect but functional
Williams GM&O units. Too bad.

M mokemikeOGR Forum Member
Hello again.  Getting back to you on some more detail on your earlier questions.
The 3rd Rail manual shows a two chain drive system, however; when I opened the bottom up by removing the fuel tank, it has only one drive and that's with a multi-tooth rubber belt.  I turned the drive train by turning the U-joints at either end and there doesn't seem to be any binding or drag and it turns fairly easy, however that's not a complete test.  One of the 4, E-7's was producing a squeaking noise while in the forward direction.  The belt drive was free to turn and there were no items rubbing the flywheel or the U-joints.  However, when running the engine in TMCC and conventional, it took a full 2 amps more to operate.  I'll contact Scott Mann tomorrow and arrange for a UPS shipment back to him for repairs.  I managed to also remove the shell and there were so many wires that wanted to pop out, it reminded me of the older MTH engines with QSI with a bundle of wires that gave you a 60 - 40 percent chance of pinching a wire while re-installing the shell. So, I was unable to take any photos of the motor, however it was a typical can motor on it's side with the brass flywheel at the opposite end as the belt drive.
 
This morning I moved everything over to the TPC 400, 2 - 180 watt power bricks, CAB 1 with command base loop and repowered the loop using a Z4000 with just one throttle. Before testing the 2 F-7's, I installed an Atlas Erie-Built power - dummy head end power and with the Z4000. I used 2.9 V and 1.6 amps to pull the 11 GGD 21" passenger cars and achieved a speed of whatever I would ever want, or need.  I then removed that power and installed a single E-7 and pulling the 11 cars again, I got 18.8 volts and 4.0 amps at a speed of about 45 MPH.
 
I then installed the second F-7 and with dual power I got 18.8 volts and 6.2 amps. The speed with dual power was about 5 mph faster, however; with the single E-7, speeds were satisfactory and with workable amperage readings.  That isn't possible on the TMCC, Cab 1 and command base configuration.  On that loop which is powered by a Z4000 and 2 TIU's with 5 blocks of power, a single E-7, is not satisfactory for speed although the amperage readings are at 4.2 amps. I'm sure if I used MTH 18" cars with the same number of cars and the lights off, that my speeds would come up to an acceptable 40 mph.  I also tried switching which "A" unit would lead on the conventional Z4000 loop and there was only 1/10th of an amp difference in power consumption although running both engines about 4' apart does not show any speed difference between either engine allowing one to catch the other.  After 4 loops around the 170' track, I stopped the AA train and felt both engines for any heat and neither was even warm.
 
I want to be able to run the other F-7 AA set with another 11 GGD 21" cars in a different road name after the high amperage F-7 is sent back to me repaired.  Splitting the Z4000 throttle with one half of the 170' track for throttle A and the other for throttle B, however; the amperage of 6.1 per train won't work.  If I disable all the nearly zero voltage light strips for each car for both trains, I might gain 3/10's of an amp.  So, for now, my options include running only one F-7 with 
an un-powered "B" unit I bought with the AA set, and run the second E-7, AA set
with the 11 cars.  
 
Also, there's still one more "hick-up" that needs to be resolved at Scott's end and that is you can't lock any of the E-7's in conventional "Reverse" with the RUN PRG switch.  As the engine is moving backward, moving the RUN PRG to PGM, the engine will lock in reverse.  However, as soon as the engine is powered down and goes thru it's shut down sequence, the next transformer throttle up, will present an engine locked in forward.  I also tried the "anticipated" setting.  Power up the transformer, go forward, neutral and the next motion should be reverse.  Before doing the reverse, moving to PGM, also gets a default back to locked in forward.
The other method mentioned in the conventional mode is to power one engine up and have it set to run forward, and on another block, power up the second engine and have it run in reverse, then "sequence the two".  That might work, however; as the engines shut down they go back to forward lock by default.  I'm sure there's a method and at the worst it would be to switch the e-unit wire so one unit starts in reverse, just like the MTH Proto 2 "slave" configuration.   In full TMCC, the ability to have one run in reverse in a lash-up "train" is not a problem and that reverse wire on the e-unit would have to addressed.  Although, with the high amperage readings, I can't see running in TMCC.
 
mokemike
  

Was the 6.5 amps for just the two A's, or did that include lighted passenger cars?  Amperage numbers for just the motors without smoke or any lighted cars would be useful to see what the engines require.

 

There could be excessive loss inthe chain drive system, a poor gear ratio match, a motor with too high a voltage rating, or something else like wiring problems.

 

Do both A's run at the same speed if you uncouple them?

KerriganKerriganOGR Forum Member

I have the SP&S E-7.

With the voltage set at 18v on the Z4000 it takes a little time to get up to speed.  If I hit the "boost" button it speeds up quickly.  It will get to moving along quite fast with a full passenger train.

Don't see any degradation in performance to speak of with the lighted GGD passenger cars.

M mokemikeOGR Forum Member
Thanks for your reply.  On Sunday I posted my success with the Z4000, however; I'm running at 18.8 volts in conventioal on a 170'
long loop that gives me all the speed and power for one or two F-7's, with eleven GGD 21" Hvy Wt. cars.  Prior to Sunday, the loop
was powered by a TPC 400 and two 180 watt bricks.  The loop has
never been wired for TMCC but now that the TPC cofiguration won't
work for the F7's & the Z4000 will, I'll have to make it a TMCC Loop.
The SP&S only had one F-7 so you
can run prototypically with one engine.  I'm running the GN Empire
Builder & that was an AA set up. The amps is about 6.5 for two single motor engines which is way high as a single 2 can motor Atlas
Erie-Built pulling the 11 cars at 4.5
amps and unlimited speed.  I also
bought the ABA in Milw Rd., and a single throttle of the Z4000 won't
handle four F-7's at the same time
so when I rewire the loop, I'll divide
the 170' loop into power blocks to
work both throttles of the Z4000 with TMCC and Legacy.
Thanks for the info and your input.
mokemike
M mokemikeOGR Forum Member
I'm sorry about the last reply,  I had F-7 on the brain and we're obviously talking about E-7's.  One thing I forgot to ask you about your TMCC ops.  How big of a layout do you have in track feet that you're operating the E-7 with?  You seem very pleased with the TMCC E-7 ops and the boost.  I have another loop just for TMCC, that's also a DCS loop with two TIU's.  Its about 90' long and the track is split into five different blocks with the two TIU's.  I've used 12 gauge wire from the Z4000 to each TIU and 14 gauge wire to each terminal strip and then 14 gauge wire from the terminal strip to the track pick-up connections.  I also ran the E-7's on it and after I set everything to 18.8 volts, I had good success and good speeds to operate, however; as soon as the E-7 train starting moving, my voltage dropped to 17 Volts and about 6.5 amps for a double E-7 AA unit.  When trying just one E-7, with eleven GGD hvy 21" long cars, and 18.8 volts the E-7 ran too slow.  So, please tell me what kind of cars your pulling as you're having good results with just one E-7?  I know if I were to put MTH 18" cars and run with the lights off, since the MTH cars are so much lighter than the GGD cars, I'd probably achieve more speed with the one E-7 "A" unit.
 
I also bought the SP&S GGD 21" hvy weight cars with 3 head end cars, five coaches and one observation car.  I use Petersen's Atlas SP&S F unit to pull those cars in TMCC and have no speed or amperage problems with that engine-train combination.  So if you could bring me up to speed on your layout size and type of cars you're pulling,  I'd sure appreciate the information.  One other thing about the Z4000 voltage setting.  About a year ago, MTH changed their philosophy on the 18 volts ops to 19 volts ops recommended.  I never noticed the need for it on MTH engines, but is does make a difference on TMCC engines.  I noticed that the voltmeter reading on the Z4000 was about 1/2 volt to 3/4's volts
lower than what two identical volt meters would read when attached to the track.
When you dial in 18 volts and stop as soon as it reads the 18.  There's really more throttle movement upwards and it still is at 18 V.  That's why I went with the test volt meters.  So setting the voltage on the Z4000 to 18.8 volts, is compaable
with both MTH engines and 3rd rail engines while other TMCC engines often can get buy with just the 18 volt setting.  Thanks again   mokemike

I have the SP&S E-7.

With the voltage set at 18v on the Z4000 it takes a little time to get up to speed.  If I hit the "boost" button it speeds up quickly.  It will get to moving along quite fast with a full passenger train.

Don't see any degradation in performance to speak of with the lighted GGD passenger cars.

KerriganKerriganOGR Forum Member

You pretty much have what I have Mike.  I pull the entire GGD SP&S passenger set with the two Atlas F units from Andy. 

 

Each of our mainlines is about 90 feet around, each with slight grades in a couple of locations, less than 1% on Main 1 and 1 /34% in one place on Main 2.  Everything, all the yards, sidings, are powered with a pair of Z4000 running through two TIUs in supermode. 

 

I use a 4000 remote to set the transformers to 18V as using that method holds the voltage steady at the setting; it doesn't vary as the train(s) move from district to district, 4 districts total, or crossing over from one Main to the other.

 

We also run TMCC along with DCS, often times together, without problems.  I can run a passenger train and a long freight with power like a 3rd Rail Z-8 on the same track without blowing a fuse. 

 

We've even run the 4-unit all-powered ABBA Atlas F set with the Z-8, one following the other, each with a freight train with lighted Atlas caboose.  Anything more than that, like 2 lighted passenger trains, will trip a breaker unless it's just that one train with lights.

 

I've run a DCS train on the same track as a TMCC train, one trailing the other.  Set the speed on the DCS train and then fiddle with the TMCC one to keep pace.  But don't look away, even for a second!  Disaster will strike immediately when you do!

 

I went through a lot of teething problems getting it all to work together, especially in Remote-TIU communications.  And doing software upgrades.  Finally got an old simple IBM ThinkPad on XP SP1 and it's been smooth sailing since.

 

We're on 4.02 and staying there.  If it works, keep it running.

 

That's why we have currently started on a program to upgrade 7 of our Proto engines to Proto2.  Love the UP turbines and GN F ABBA set so why buy "new" when "upgraded" is just as good!

M mokemikeOGR Forum Member
Very Interesting that we have so many engines and cars alike.  I lived in the Seattle for nearly 60 years and of course I'm a GN, NP, SP&S, and Milw Rd guy.
You say that you have two Z4000's powering 2 TIU's.  The rule of thumb on a TIU is that each throttle of a Z4000 will power one TIU and each TIU of four channels, will support between 70' to 80' of track and not quite so much if you have a lot of switches ganged together and it's best to wire the gang as one group and to get a better signal thru the switch group/s.  They may take a whole channel by themselves with less left over for the plain track runs.  So I'm supporting two TIU's with one Z4000 and the only time I've got a voltage drop or amperage drop is when running the new E-7's.  What does your single E-7 do to your Z4000 voltage and amperage when it first excellerates?  What does it do when it's in a "steady" 40 mph pulling a train?  What are you pulling with the E-7?  If you're not seeing any drop from the E-7, maybe I need to go back and see if I need more Z4000 power?  I've got a lot of my tracks toggled off when I'm not running trains over sidings that have MTH engines with trains parked on them, so they don't draw power when toggled off.  I have two gangs of 4 Ross switches
connected into my storage tracks and each gang is on one TIU channel.  All storage tracks are also almost always toggled off as I only use one of the tracks to pull a train out of the storage track and then back fill it with another train.
Thanks for the very good description of the layout power.   I really know what 
you're describing when running multiple trains on the same track at the same time as my loop is connected to another loop that allows 5 trains with double headed engines on it at the same time.  If you don't pay very close attention, one will close the gap very quickly and the event will cascade all around the entire layout.
mokemike

You pretty much have what I have Mike.  I pull the entire GGD SP&S passenger set with the two Atlas F units from Andy. 

 

Each of our mainlines is about 90 feet around, each with slight grades in a couple of locations, less than 1% on Main 1 and 1 /34% in one place on Main 2.  Everything, all the yards, sidings, are powered with a pair of Z4000 running through two TIUs in supermode. 

 

I use a 4000 remote to set the transformers to 18V as using that method holds the voltage steady at the setting; it doesn't vary as the train(s) move from district to district, 4 districts total, or crossing over from one Main to the other.

 

We also run TMCC along with DCS, often times together, without problems.  I can run a passenger train and a long freight with power like a 3rd Rail Z-8 on the same track without blowing a fuse. 

 

We've even run the 4-unit all-powered ABBA Atlas F set with the Z-8, one following the other, each with a freight train with lighted Atlas caboose.  Anything more than that, like 2 lighted passenger trains, will trip a breaker unless it's just that one train with lights.

 

I've run a DCS train on the same track as a TMCC train, one trailing the other.  Set the speed on the DCS train and then fiddle with the TMCC one to keep pace.  But don't look away, even for a second!  Disaster will strike immediately when you do!

 

I went through a lot of teething problems getting it all to work together, especially in Remote-TIU communications.  And doing software upgrades.  Finally got an old simple IBM ThinkPad on XP SP1 and it's been smooth sailing since.

 

We're on 4.02 and staying there.  If it works, keep it running.

 

That's why we have currently started on a program to upgrade 7 of our Proto engines to Proto2.  Love the UP turbines and GN F ABBA set so why buy "new" when "upgraded" is just as good!

KerriganKerriganOGR Forum Member

I meant to say it's DCS 4.2, the latest version.

 

Two Z4000s power the two TIUs, with the chan 1 on each TIU powering a main line.

The rest of it is divided up to balance the load as much as possible.

 

I've left the second channel on the second TIU lightly loaded as it will be powering the coming terminal facility.

 

I think the key here maybe that I use a Remote4000 to set the voltage on each Z4000 and then it doesn't vary regardless.  For some reason it keeps the voltage constant when setting it with the remote.  Don't know if it will do the same with the DCS remote ... haven't tried that.

 

It literally took a couple of years to work out the bugs and now that it does what I want, probably not going to upgrade again or change it.  May have to add another TIU in the future, but so far one Z4000 to one TIU.  I split the throttle handles between the two fixed ports and jumper from each of those to the variable port, so one throttle is actually powering one fixed and one var port.  I have the var ports set up so I turn them on and off with the DCS remote as needed.  That way I can kill a siding or the yard or whatever without impacting the main lines.

 

If I set the voltage with the Z4000 handles it will vary as trains move from district to district, and that's why I set it with the Remote4000.

Layout 12-31-11

Layout 12-31-11

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Last edited by Kerrigan
M mokemikeOGR Forum Member
Thanks for the great photo.  Now I know why your using two Z4000's.  What cars are you pulling with the SP&S E-7?    mokemike

 

Two Z4000s power the two TIUs, with the chan 1 on each TIU powering a main line.

The rest of it is divided up to balance the load as much as possible.

 

I've left the second channel on the second TIU lightly loaded as it will be powering the coming terminal facility.

 

I think the key here maybe that I use a Remote4000 to set the voltage on each Z4000 and then it doesn't vary regardless.  For some reason it keeps the voltage constant when setting it with the remote.  Don't know if it will do the same with the DCS remote ... haven't tried that.

 

It literally took a couple of years to work out the bugs and now that it does what I want, probably not going to upgrade again or change it.  May have to add another TIU in the future, but so far one Z4000 to one TIU.  I split the throttle handles between the two fixed ports and jumper from each of those to the variable port, so one throttle is actually powering one fixed and one var port.  I have the var ports set up so I turn them on and off with the DCS remote as needed.  That way I can kill a siding or the yard or whatever without impacting the main lines.

 

If I set the voltage with the Z4000 handles it will vary as trains move from district to district, and that's why I set it with the Remote4000.

Layout 12-31-11

Layout 12-31-11

KerriganKerriganOGR Forum Member

I put it on the head of the entire Petersen Supply GGD SP&S consist and it doesn't have a problem.  Pulls it as well as the dual F unit set Andy did from Atlas.  Strong puller as it weighs so much.  I doubt that it will do the same when we get the 3-1/2 to 4% grade in to the second level, which will take off from the last turnout on the #1 mainline over on the right side of the photo, just after the group of turnouts.  That will require more power.  Going to make it the section of the railway with overhead wire for the electric district, ie. the mountain division.  It will go up and over the trackage at the rear of the photo, then come back around in 72-degree curve and back up the right side, doing the same at this end, and back around to the rear.

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