Smoke on slows down engine

I need to add this comment. If I don’t turn the smoke off when it is crawling many times it will resume speed on its own but then slow down again after a bit

What transformer are you using Walt? ….any way you can measure the volts & amps?

Pat

I would check for resistance of the elements, make sure not a short to smoke housing.  As Pat said, what voltage on track.  Turning smoke on will drop track voltage.  Are you at 18 or more volts when in DCS?  G

I am using an MRC dual 270 as I have for the last 10 years. I always run at 16 V. I have Not opened up my engine to Lube it  this year so I don’t know how a wire can be affected.

I will check the amps - I never thought of that. What’s odd as I’ve already stated is it will slow to a crawl for a bit and then speed up all on its own again. And this has only started to happen in the last couple of days because it was fine prior to that. I have not touched the engine and tender at all

Thanks for all of the suggestions that I can get

walt

OK I just now tested. When I run the train with smoke off it runs at 2.1 A at 16 V. When I turn smoke on it jumps to anywhere between three and 3.5 A and that’s when it slows down.

What voltage?  Give both, they matter.  But that is a 1.4Amp increase for smoke coupled with the droop in voltage from the load.

Depending on your track layout and connections you can be getting lower track voltage on certain sections.  Also how clean and lubricated are the pickup rollers.  How clean are the wheels.  All this leaves the board with less power to work with when trying to do what it is told.  G

@walt rapp posted:

OK I just now tested. When I run the train with smoke off it runs at 2.1 A at 16 V. When I turn smoke on it jumps to anywhere between three and 3.5 A and that’s when it slows down.

Running with no smoke on you’re pulling 2.1 amps?…..are there lighted cars on this same track when you did that test? …you mentioned tinplate…….Standard gauge??…..O gauge??.….I agree with George, that’s quite a jump for smoke being on……if these numbers remain after you check the items George mentions, I’d have it looked at before running it again,…..also, what’s the item # or can you snap a quick picture?

Pat

I really think you are taxing the engine with low voltage. Isn't this just basic electrical formula results?

I run outside with 24 volts on my transformer and I believe the engine ends up with just over 21 volts at the boards.

I can run several engines with the smoke on or off with little difference.

If I turn the handles down, I see higher amp draws at lower voltage.

So, I get confused when posters suggest it's an engine problem. I bet he has a power sag at the rails causing these issues. Could be poor wire size, bad rail joints losing power, etc. Starting with 16volts or even lower (at the board) in reality, may just be exacerbating the issue.

I've posted this before and have been scolded that I'm wrong. I would suggest testing the engine at proper voltage first. Take the track out of the equation.

I agree but he has said it use to work before.  So either track or engine cleanliness, jumper connections, or something changed with engine.  G

@Engineer-Joe posted:

I really think you are taxing the engine with low voltage. Isn't this just basic electrical formula results?

I run outside with 24 volts on my transformer and I believe the engine ends up with just over 21 volts at the boards.

I can run several engines with the smoke on or off with little difference.

If I turn the handles down, I see higher amp draws at lower voltage.

So, I get confused when posters suggest it's an engine problem. I bet he has a power sag at the rails causing these issues. Could be poor wire size, bad rail joints losing power, etc. Starting with 16volts or even lower (at the board) in reality, may just be exacerbating the issue.

I've posted this before and have been scolded that I'm wrong. I would suggest testing the engine at proper voltage first. Take the track out of the equation.

Almost an amp & a half is quite the jump for smoke on Joe, …..1/2 an amp increase maybe, …slightly higher if you’re boosting it….( labor chuff in DCS or brake demand on TMCC/Legacy ) ……..so something’s amiss,….hopefully Walt does the checks George suggests, and we can all learn and identify the culprit…..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Almost an amp & a half is quite the jump for smoke on Joe, …..1/2 an amp increase maybe, …slightly higher if you’re boosting it….( labor chuff in DCS or brake demand on TMCC/Legacy ) ……..so something’s amiss,….hopefully Walt does the checks George suggests, and we can all learn and identify the culprit…..

Pat

I would agree but..... (my idea anyways)

I used to have ten amps used up outside with my G scale with the smoke on and just 3 engines running. I got more power and turned the voltage up to 24 on the new transformer, and then the 10-amp draw limit allowed 5 engines with smoke on. Each engine only draws around 1.5 amps under load and slightly more with smoke on.

Wait!

Maybe it's different because that is with DC voltage??

Same principal DC or AC.  Power consumption is Volts X Amp.  If Watt need is equal higher voltage means less current. The impact is voltage drop on transformer with load (Droop) and transmission losses thru wires and track connections.  Higher current causes greater losses.

There is a reason power companies transmit at high voltage, then transformer to lower voltage closer to the load (home).

If you have a Z-4000 or transformer with volt/amp meter you can see the effect of what happens to volts and amp when smoke on and off and at different starting voltages.  If your using the MTH bench tester you can watch motor slow down as you turn on smoke.   All normal consequences.  G

i will do more testing later when I have more time.  I'm responding now so that those helping me out know that I saw their replies and will take heed of them.  First, a couple of things.

The set: 11-5509-1 and engine is 269E

I am meticulous about keeping me stuff spotless.  I promise you that the wheels and pickups are as clean as they can be.  Remember, I only have a Christmas layout so run time is minimal.  I can run my finger on the track and there's nothing dirty on it.  I clean it every year when I take the layout down.  Additionally, I haven't run my trains very much this season.

I use 16 gauge wire for track power.  Because I'm running with DCS, I follow the guidelines and have the tracks in 'blocks' using star wiring.

The engine is properly lubed.

The MRC dual 270 trannie has built in meters for amps and voltage for both handles.

I am including an image of the set, which is 'O' gauge since the question was asked.  I bought 2 additional cars which also run with the set.  No lighted cars.

I will run with higher voltage later and report back.  I have an 'O' gauge tin-plate baby blue comet that I can use to make some comparisons with - it has 4 lighted cars so I guess I should take those off to get a better comparison.  I will run with 18V.

Thanks guys for offering suggestions.  I appreciate it.

- walt

My curiosity wouldn't let me wait!!!!!  I tested again just now and BETTER.

I ran at 19V.  Running with no smoke on resulted in around 1 amp.  smoke on it jumped LESS than an amp and was around 1.6 or 1.7 amps.  The thing that made me most happy was that the 'problem' that caused me to start this thread did not happen!!!!  The train did NOT slow down with smoke on.

Lesson learned: 16V is not as healthy as 19V.

As always, THANK YOU - walt

thank you for allowing me to interrupt this post.

Thank you, G, for explaining that to me. I appreciate the extra effort.

I wonder if his meters are showing true voltage (especially what voltage is ending up inside the engine).

Another tool available here is what the PS2 engine reports the voltage as. Many times, you'll see a Z4000 show it's putting out 16 volts, but the DCS engine will show 14 or 15 after you turn on the smoke.

I think 16 volts from that MRC should be enough power to run the smoke unit and the train at a reasonable speed. Right now I'm running my Christmas layout on the 14 volt out[ut of a Z1000 brick and have no trouble running the engine at 25 to 40 SMPH with the smoke on pulling LED lighted cars.

I knew about the DCS option to have the engine 'report' the voltage but forgot all about it.  Thanks for the reminder!

I used to always run with 16V which is why I used that number in my original question.  I have a tin-plate blue comet (with 4 lited cars) running find with just 16V.

To be honest I am thoroughly confused right now.  I know that 16V worked for both tin-pate sets for 10 years or so, but I  also know that I saw this red engine slow down when I turned smoke on.  Since there's no lights to worry about burning out in this set, since my test yesterday with 19V showed positive results, I'll just stick with that for this red engine.

I'll also stick with 16V for the blue comet since it's fine there

as always, thank  you for offering to help me out

- walt

The system is designed to work best at 18V. Running at a lower voltage hampers the available supply for the board to draw from. Hence the issues you’re seeing……the system will work smoother and more efficiently at 18V……in your case, running smoke & or lighted cars, 18V would be the better choice. You’re not gaining anything or protecting anything running the system at 16V

Pat

The only reason I ever run at lower voltages is to guarantee the speed control of the engines on the track, whether Lionel or MTH, but as Pat says, that can cause other unintended issues.

Also, keep in mind that those lighted tinplate cars draw considerable power. If memory serves me right, they have two 250ma bulbs, so you're drawing 2 amps of power just for lights in 4 cars. If it were anything else, I'd install LED replacements, but personally, it's just wrong to do that to tinplate.

@H1000 posted:

Another tool available here is what the PS2 engine reports the voltage as.

One note to add is that the voltage displayed on the remote is only accurate if the input is 22 volts.

@John H posted:

One note to add is that the voltage displayed on the remote is only accurate if the input is 22 volts.

Nope. When you request a voltage reading from the engine, that is what the engine sees. I find that it is always a little lower than what your transformer is outputting as the electronics, smoke unit, and drive motor are pulling down the voltage from what is being input at the pickup rollers.

You might be confusing the voltage display you see when increasing power from a variable TIU channel. The TIU assumes you are inputing from a 22 volt source and displays what it thinks the output voltage is based on that 22 volts.