In my experience manufacturers don’t set the minimum radius higher than what the piece will run on  properly.  It limits sales. I’m sure there are exceptions but not many.

@Terry Luft posted:

In my experience manufacturers don’t set the minimum radius higher than what the piece will run on  properly.  It limits sales. I’m sure there are exceptions but not many.

Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure because I had read that the 054 recommendation is based on tubular track which is measured differently than Fastrack? And, currently there is no 054 Fastrack.

Its rated for 54 for the Kinematic pilots. The couplers are not attached to truck blocks. So basically, the answer is no.

@Boilermaker1 posted:

Its rated for 54 for the Kinematic pilots. The couplers are not attached to truck blocks. So basically, the answer is no.

That makes sense. Thank you.

I think I’m going to plan to begin switching over to 060.

@Raven87 posted:

I think I’m going to plan to begin switching over to 060.

If you can possibly put in O-72 curves, you will be able to run almost everything.

O-72 seems to be an industry standard upon which everything must run.

if this were an MTH engine I'd say try it. With LIONEL usually NO!

Thanks guys! If I can put in 072 I will but I’m not sure I’ve got the room. Have to do some more measuring and possibly rearranging regardless.
Most likely, 060 may be the limit but I’m going to try!

I definitely like the looks of equipment on larger curves.

the largest radii you can fit  EVEN IF YOU NEED TO REMOVE or MOVE WALLS!!

@Boilermaker1 posted:

Its rated for 54 for the Kinematic pilots. The couplers are not attached to truck blocks. So basically, the answer is no.

I've been wondering about this also. I have Lionel Legacy SD70s and Dash-9s that will run on 0-36 track and switches. I have been puzzled why SD40s and ES44ACs  need 0-54 while these other Legacy beasts can clear O-36.

While I can’t confirm anything with this run. I remember when the ES44’s original came out with the Kinematic pilot they would say O-48 minimum but O-54 recommended. Meaning it might work ok but for best results use O-54

I can't speak for the ES44, but I have a SD45 with Kinematic couplers that I run on O-42 curves.  Looks goofy, but it has no problems.  The only caveat is that I cannot couple it directly to a piece of rolling stock.  It will derail the rolling stock.  I always couple it to another locomotive, either powered or dummy.  The articulated couplers of the trailing loco work in concert with the Kinematic couplers allowing it to pass through the tight curves.

Steve,  Shoot me an email (see profile) I'm in Delphos.  Work in Elida.  If you want to see how tight a curve your loco can handle bring it over and we can try it out.

Tom

Most Lionel 6 axle engines are really 1B-B1 with the two outboard axles not geared.  The “idler” axles have a greater range of travel which allows engines like the SD70ACe to negotiate tighter curves.  The ES44AC are true C-C trucks with all 6 axles geared.  This makes the lateral travel of the axles more restrictive and demands wider curves.

@JFC454 posted:

Most Lionel 6 axle engines are really 1B-B1 with the two outboard axles not geared.  The “idler” axles have a greater range of travel which allows engines like the SD70ACe to negotiate tighter curves.  The ES44AC are true C-C trucks with all 6 axles geared.  This makes the lateral travel of the axles more restrictive and demands wider curves.

This makes perfect sense. Thank you.

@Tom Densel posted:

I can't speak for the ES44, but I have a SD45 with Kinematic couplers that I run on O-42 curves.  Looks goofy, but it has no problems.  The only caveat is that I cannot couple it directly to a piece of rolling stock.  It will derail the rolling stock.  I always couple it to another locomotive, either powered or dummy.  The articulated couplers of the trailing loco work in concert with the Kinematic couplers allowing it to pass through the tight curves.

Steve,  Shoot me an email (see profile) I'm in Delphos.  Work in Elida.  If you want to see how tight a curve your loco can handle bring it over and we can try it out.

Tom

Thanks Tom. I haven’t bought the ES44 yet but I’ll keep your offer in mind for sure.

I have a Legacy AC6000 coming next week but Lionel says it will work on 042 curves so it should be fine on the 048 curves (fingers crossed!). It will interesting to see if it can navigate my 036 switches but I wouldn’t really need it do anything but run on my mainlines so no worries there if not.  

My SD90MAC (21.5” long) handles everything but then again it is rated for 036 so no surprise there.

Meanwhile I’ll be buying some bigger curve pieces Monday and get started reconfiguring for at least 060.

I have the Lionel BNSF ES44 Oil Train Set and the newest Lionel BNSF ES44 from last year and they both work perfectly find around O-48 curves. In fact I also have a Vision GS-3, 21" passenger cars, and other O54 engines and they work fine as well. The kinematic coupler actually helps in this situation. However the first car behind the ES44 might have to have a longer isolated coupler arm (not be integrated into the truck) or have a heavier base. That kinematic coupler can push things off the track sometimes.

Keep in mind that Lionel never uses O48 as a curve rating for anything - it's either O36 and if it doesn't make O36 then it's automatically tagged with O54. A few years ago they tagged SD70ACes with O54 and they could do O36 with zero issues so the point here is I don't always trust what Lionel puts on their boxes, ask around if you really want to know.

I’m extremely interested in the answer to this. I like the es44 from Lionel, but am not certain I’ll be using o54 on the outer loop when I go to build.

https://ogrforum.com/...59#48452550539971059

I run my Lionel ES44AC on 048 track. In short, the unit will navigate with rolling stock with articulated couplers or with a dummy locomotive in tow.

These replies are great information. Thank you for some real world experiences!

@Csxcellent posted:

I’m extremely interested in the answer to this. I like the es44 from Lionel, but am not certain I’ll be using o54 on the outer loop when I go to build.

Yes! Me too.

I suspect that at least some of the locomotives that Lionel says have an O-54 minimum curve will actually run on O-48. I would like to hear back from people who have tried.

One other point, why is Lionel even using the O-54 designation? They don't even offer O-54 track! The hierarchy goes from O-31, O-36, O-48, O-60...

@BNSF-Matt posted:

I have the Lionel BNSF ES44 Oil Train Set and the newest Lionel BNSF ES44 from last year and they both work perfectly find around O-48 curves. In fact I also have a Vision GS-3, 21" passenger cars, and other O54 engines and they work fine as well. The kinematic coupler actually helps in this situation. However the first car behind the ES44 might have to have a longer isolated coupler arm (not be integrated into the truck) or have a heavier base. That kinematic coupler can push things off the track sometimes.

Keep in mind that Lionel never uses O48 as a curve rating for anything - it's either O36 and if it doesn't make O36 then it's automatically tagged with O54. A few years ago they tagged SD70ACes with O54 and they could do O36 with zero issues so the point here is I don't always trust what Lionel puts on their boxes, ask around if you really want to know.

There are a few that are rated for 042 curves which is another mystery. This is what Lionel has listed for the Legacy AC6000:

PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS

• Rail Line: Union Pacific
• Road Number: 7566
• Gauge: O Gauge
• Scale Type: Scale
• Power: Electric
• Engine Type: Diesel
• Min Curve: O42
• Dimensions: Length: 19 1/2"
• Most Recent Catalog: 2017

i wonder why?

So I’ve switched all the main line over to 060 curves and have two 072 switches installed with more to buy.

I’m still wanting to buy an ES44AC Legacy - does anyone here have experience or maybe have seen this engine negotiate a (temporary for now - $$$$) 036 switch that transitions into 060 curve or straight track (all Fastrack)?

The obvious concern is the C-C trucks and the couplers.

One other question - are Kinematic couplers the same as Electrocouplers?

Thanks!

Can’t comment on the curve but if you want to know what the kinematic pilots are like checkout this video around 12:45

dear train friend,based on my little experience,minimum is just that.like someone stated go for072.i run a gunderson set with minimum 054 on 060 switches and it doesn't look so good.I believe bigger radius is less strain on couplers.my main loop is on a 7x8 table with 072 curves.i know lack of space is our enem,if you can put the biggest radii you can.you will be better off in the long run

Thanks guys. I have all 060 curves on the mainline and may even upgrade to 072 later this year if I get a deal on the Fastrack curves

My two main off/on switches off and then back onto the mainline are 072s. After those two 072 switches are four pairs of 036 switches in/out of two of the three bypass lines which I’m going to change to 072s soon. But for now, they’re 036s.

So, I can make the ES44AC work regardless as long as it is kept on the main line with the 060s. I can even make it work on the one bypass line directly in/out of the 072s. My hope is that I can get it through an 036 switch (not a full curve) to get it off/back on the main line occasionally to the one bypass line that has all the switches to the sidings for the yard.

If not, I think I can make things work until I get the additional 072s! I’m just curious about a slow movement through the 036s but definitely do not want to damage anything.

@kranky posted:

dear train friend,based on my little experience,minimum is just that.like someone stated go for072.i run a gunderson set with minimum 054 on 060 switches and it doesn't look so good.I believe bigger radius is less strain on couplers.my main loop is on a 7x8 table with 072 curves.i know lack of space is our enem,if you can put the biggest radii you can.you will be better off in the long run

Excellent advice and I could not agree more.

@zhubl posted:

Can’t comment on the curve but if you want to know what the kinematic pilots are like checkout this video around 12:45

Thank you!

curves smurves  don't fret about what train looks like on the curves, none of our curves are scale.

curves are merely transitions back to straights. all of our straight tracks ARE scale. 

@AlanRail posted:

curves smurves  don't fret about what train looks like on the curves, none of our curves are scale.

curves are merely transitions back to straights. all of our straight tracks ARE scale.

"...all of our straight tracks ARE scale."     Love it!

If I may circle back to the OP's original question: Can the Legacy ES44AC (#1933321)  navigate O-36 or O-48 curves? We know what the box says, but does anyone have first hand knowledge of running Legacy ES44AC's on curves tighter than O-54?

@Madockawando posted:

One other point, why is Lionel even using the O-54 designation? They don't even offer O-54 track! The hierarchy goes from O-31, O-36, O-48, O-60...

I'm guessing,this goes back to the older tubular track which I believe was, O-27, 0-31,O-42, O-54 and O-72.

Either the testing and/ or terminalology hasn't been updated pertaining to Fastrack. FWIW, there are some videos of the factory in Korea showing tubular track, if that matters. One would "think" testing is done here.

@AlanRail posted:

curves smurves  don't fret about what train looks like on the curves, none of our curves are scale.

curves are merely transitions back to straights. all of our straight tracks ARE scale.

O.K. fair enough. Minimum radius recommendations don't matter.

If we're comfortable grinding our o-54 recommended scale diesel around o-36 curves because they just need to make it to the straights.

Can we fret when the wires going through the chassis to the trucks eventually wear through from rubbing and stretching causing the locomotive to short out?

@RickO posted:

O.K. fair enough. Minimum radius recommendations don't matter.

If we're comfortable grinding our o-54 recommended scale diesel around o-36 curves because they just need to make it to the straights.

Can we fret when the wires going through the chassis to the trucks eventually wear through from rubbing and stretching causing the locomotive to short out?

Rick, my biggest issue is that I don’t trust Lionel min requirements. Lionel gets things wrong on their product detail page all the time. I would rather trust folks who actually run things on their layout. My largest loop is 048 curves and I don’t have issues running the new ES44 diesels, Visionline GS3, SF scale Northerns, and other large engines.

@BNSF-Matt posted:

Rick, my biggest issue is that I don’t trust Lionel min requirements. Lionel gets things wrong on their product detail page all the time. I would rather trust folks who actually run things on their layout. My largest loop is 048 curves and I don’t have issues running the new ES44 diesels, Visionline GS3, SF scale Northerns, and other large engines.

Good to know. Have you - or anyone else - ran an ES44AC Legacy through an 036 switch? If so, was it successful or did you have any issues?

@BNSF-Matt posted:

Rick, my biggest issue is that I don’t trust Lionel min requirements. Lionel gets things wrong on their product detail page all the time. I would rather trust folks who actually run things on their layout. My largest loop is 048 curves and I don’t have issues running the new ES44 diesels, Visionline GS3, SF scale Northerns, and other large engines.

Understood Matt. IMO paint and details , versus mechanical ability are two different things.

Just because you can ,doesn't mean you should. My biggest engines are Berkshires and Mountains and I can't stand the way they look on O-48 with the inner drive wheels floating in mid air, know the extra friction it has to get through making the bend.  

The drawbar is forced to the far ends of travel , and the wires going to the drawbar are pulled to extremes.  So those stay on my o-60 loop. IMO nothing larger than a Mikado on o-48.

Maybe its fine, maybe one day you'll have an issue. From the manufactures standpoint, why take the chance. Lionel has enough problems, they would only have more pushing the limits.

Just my 2cents Matt. Run your trains the way you wish.

@Raven87 posted:

Good to know. Have you - or anyone else - ran an ES44AC Legacy through an 036 switch? If so, was it successful or did you have any issues?

My mainline has O48 switches, but I have a few spurs with O36 and can give them a try for you today or tomorrow and report back.

@RickO posted:

Understood Matt. IMO paint and details , versus mechanical ability are two different things.

Just because you can ,doesn't mean you should. My biggest engines are Berkshires and Mountains and I can't stand the way they look on O-48 with the inner drive wheels floating in mid air, know the extra friction it has to get through making the bend.  

The drawbar is forced to the far ends of travel , and the wires going to the drawbar are pulled to extremes.  So those stay on my o-60 loop. IMO nothing larger than a Mikado on o-48.

Maybe its fine, maybe one day you'll have an issue. From the manufactures standpoint, why take the chance. Lionel has enough problems, they would only have more pushing the limits.

Just my 2cents Matt. Run your trains the way you wish.

Rick, valid points and they are on target. I do take 100% responsibility for the engines I run that might not meet Lionel specifications. I do inspect / monitor my larger engines as they move around my loop. I don't run super large engines and I would never even try as a 4-8-4 is the largest I can go and anything beyond that is a no fly zone

I do appreciate your feedback.

-Matt

@BNSF-Matt posted:

My mainline has O48 switches, but I have a few spurs with O36 and can give them a try for you today or tomorrow and report back.

That would be great just to know.  Please be careful and make sure nothing gets damaged.

I think that Lionel has it wrong with the minimum radius with some locomotives.  I suspect that Legacy ES44AC locomotives and Legacy SD40 can clear O-48 and O-36 track with no issues even though they are listed as O-54. My Legacy SD70 ace and Dash-9s clear my O-36 switches just fine. It seems like the other locomotives should as well.